rhiannon1207

I have a 2002 TL base that had the first transmission replaced in 11/2005 with 23K miles. I knew the first one was bad because I could feel it slipping when it shifted gears. Of course it took multiple visits to different Acura dealers before one finally decided I needed a new transmission.

I actually bought the car on 11/8/2001, so my 7 year 9 month warranty will be up tomorrow. I sometimes felt the second transmission would shift a little rough (and I even thought it had been my imagination because I kept looking for something to wrong), but nothing like the problems in the first. I took the car to the dealer in March and they said they couldn't find anything wrong. Since the warranty is up tomorrow, I took the car back to the same dealer today just to have them check it again. This time, they told me that I need a new transmission. What's really irritating is the transmission is shifting no differently this time than when I took the car to them in March. So why did they decide today that I needed a new transmission?

The good news is that I get to drive a 2009 TL-tech and I get another 12 months of warranty on this transmission. The bad news is that I'm really disgusted with this car needing a second transmission with only 48K miles on it!

So now for the advice. I'm really toying with the idea of getting rid of this car in the next couple of months because I just don't trust it. Am I over-reacting? What are the chances this new transmission is going to last any longer than the first two? Shouldn't I be concerned that I'm probably going to get a rebuilt transmission with a lot more miles on it than I have on my car? If I do decide to trade it in, should I even consider another Acura since I'm a bit sour over this brand after these major car repairs. How about an Infiniti G37? They get good ratings in Consumer Reports and they seem fun to drive!

Sorry for the long message and the rant. Thanks in advance for any advice you might be able to offer.

russianDude

so looks like post Feb 2005 transmission is not any better ;(

Gfaze

I'd say give it one more shot, sometimes a bad unit gets past QC, it happens. With that low mileage, I would keep it. It's still better than having a car payment.

01tl4tl

there are certain driving test the tech does that will make it show a problem if there is one, and their code reader may find something like engine overspeed- but its not in Limp Mode so thats a false code- meaning the trans is slipping and fooling the computer
Does not require any lights on the dash to have this type code--happened to my car

the post 05 trans are much improved- maybe 10-25% failure rate
you should get another 50-100k miles from this trans - and if you decide to sell it, having a fresh trans is a major selling point- the unit itself will carry 12/12 warranty

You will get a rebuilt unit consisting of the new design case and a combo of new wearable parts like clutch plates/packs, and used hard metal parts that have passed inspection and are good as new for their use.

Why did it fail today you ask?
Because the dealer totally hooked you up and ~found~ a trans problem under warranty for you
Thank them with all 10s on the survey card and a box of ice cream sandwiches or popsicles or donuts for the shop are well appreciated
$5 from you for 4 grand of generosity from them....seems reasonable

russianDude

10-25% failure rate, and you call it improved? That's a horrible rate. I don't know, I am starting to lose confidence in post 2005 transmissions, it is not reliable as it should, we discovering more cases of failure.

01tl4tl

you have been here long enough to know the pre 05 rate was something in the range above 40-50% for failure of a rebuilt unit
now its something you hear about now and then, AT the main tech forum
yes there are some who go thru more than 2 but thats rare

For many cars- one owner wouldnt see 100k miles out of the car!
for a trans to have a wear issue- if you looked inside you would understand the problem-
its normal for every trans to wear out ,,,eventually

Fords were about 50- right past warranty and failure occurs, with no factory help,
and the rest of the car was a rattle trap oil burning/leaking bouncing turd

01tl4tl

the problem remains of still not enough oil getting to certain parts of 2nd 3rd gear, even with the improved system its still not enough
The overall problem of not enough space to do anything more will always be there
You cannot expect a company to redesign the trans again- for a 10 year old model
Cars really are designed now to be driven by 2-3 owners for 2-3 years each
Hopefully traded back thru the dealer network for max profit and a new car leased
10 years, 100k miles and its on its last legs- headed for the recycler

russianDude

40-50% seems high, that is a guess, right? I recently got my first transmission changed at 72K miles (8 years of ownership). If I can get another 8 years/100K miles out of it, I will be OK.

Lets not compare Honda to Ford, Ford is crap, we all paid extra money to go with Honda which is known for its reliability (Acura should be even better, right?). So don't tell me that's its normal for transmission to last 70K miles. In my book its at least 150-200K miles under normal use. That's what I got from my 1989 Toyota Camry, and I never changed transmission fluid on it, by the time I sold it for $500 (with 190K miles), transmission fluid was black, and the car was still running fine.
On the other hand you might be right, that was then, and that is now. Back in the day manufactures made quality products, now they all make cheap crap to last enough for 6-7 years. I am planing to go with Lexus next, so far it has been topping the reliability ratings ... (jdpowers has been ranking it #1 for many years)


PS. I like to keep my cars for a long time until they become worthless and then I just practically give them away.

01tl4tl

yes the numbers are a pure guess on my part based soley on reading here for the last few years and how my own trans is doing- wildy inaccurate is possible

anything near 100 is great on an original trans. Some to many owners- (those who we never met because they dont have a tech question/problem)--those trans are all doing fine with 140+ on them--owners never heard of a trans problem

Back Then is definetly then~ for quality and forward thinking--
whoever actually designed the trans case and oil passages wasnt talking with the engineer who needed x amout of fluid brought thru the trans

The rest of the car goes and goes with minor parts replacement of ball joints-bushings- a few other normal wear items during its life, but the overall car still solid
Fsttyms1 is over 300k miles on his 00 now.
The engine was like new inside at 200 and he was on trans #5--3 warranty and 2 he rebuilt, then decided to drop in a CL-S motor and 6 speed trans

01tl4tl

ford used to suck - then mazda joined with them and they get very high ratings- I know- Im shocked too!

Lexus has good INITIAL jdpower survey results,,, thats sent to new car owners at 30 days--often thats nothing than initial happiness with a great new car after driving a vinyl interior crapbox--
how are they at year 5 and ready for maitenance?
The low rated cars have body panel fit, noises or finish issues and get lower marks
Consumer reports and popular mechanics magazines have good long term reports but only keep a vehicle a year,, not a lifetime

rhiannon1207

01tl4tl said "the problem remains of still not enough oil getting to certain parts of 2nd 3rd gear, even with the improved system its still not enough". Didn't Acura attempt to fix the problem by initially adding an oil injection device so that more oil got to the 2nd and 3rd gear? I thought that in the post 02/05 transmissions, the oil injection device was moved to an internal location in the transmission? Is that not the case? Does this device not work?

Since my '02 is in the shop for the new transmission, I have the 09 loaner. To be honest, this transmission seems to shift about the same as my 02 TL (a little rough at times). So now I'm wondering whether I really need a new transmission? Could it be that the dealer has less work in this bad economy, so they are creating some work for themselves? Doesn't the dealer make money from Acura on these transmission repairs?
Just a thought.

As a side note, the 09 TL is a lot of fun to drive because of all of the gadgets. I'm really going to miss that when I get mine back. Unfortunately, I'm still not in love with the exterior of the car. Sometimes I look at it and think it looks ok and other times I think "ugly". I'm not sure that I could own an ugly car!

01tl4tl

your trans had a problem- you kept reporting it and the tech was finally able to duplicate it
Be happy and leave it at that, our cars are better than the new ones!
Acura dealer makes some money, but doesnt get paid the parts commission or labor rate they charge customers- warranty is not a big money maker for them-
They hooked you up because you had complained a few times and better to help you now than deal with Goodwill warranty later

the oil jet kit sprays oil on the gearset of 2nd, and is built internal on post 05 cases

The oil passages cast into the case that carry the oil there and in that area dont have enough flow rate to keep things properly cooled
Even a trans cooler does not solve the problem by reducing temps slightly
Its simply not enough oil in an area of heat,,clutch disc packs wear

For the motorcyclist in the group: it looks the same inside as a wet clutch, a bunch of friction disc stacked on each other--(except one set per gear not one set for all)
It needs another 2-3 disc,,, would help but not solve problem either

russianDude

yeah, but supposedly they improved materials used for clutch packs, so it should be more durable even when there is not enough lubrication. BTW, I had 09 TL as well, I hated it. Looks OK inside, looks really ugly from outside. I like prior generation of TL a lot more. On the other performance note it also feels clumsy and heavy. My CL seems to be faster and more responsive, 09 TL is just this big heavy family car, not my type of car. I'd rather go with TSX

01tl4tl

better material sure- but that wont stop wear from limited amount of fluid to them for cooling!
Did my explanantion of motorcycle clutch parts make sense?
these plates have a few MM of material on them (unsure of cars actual plate thickness)and require oil flowing thru them to keep cool,,is as much movement as temp of fluid

You can help by avoiding max rpm downshifts on a constant basis

russianDude

So if you drive your car such that RPMs never high it should help?

01tl4tl

no- what I meant was if usng SS mode on a daily basis and doing all your downshifts into 3rd and 2nd at max rpm- that will put extra wear on the clutches-
plain and simple
Drive it anywhere near normal and it wont be an issue
Only when you are pushing the limits of the car
Think of the forces required to match gear speeds at that rpm
The clutches absorb the differance
I am only talking of everyday excess abuse--a track day wont put that same strees on it

russianDude

Well, yeah, I agree that pushing the limits is not a good idea.
But there are people who used to drive it normally, and the transmission still had failed. For some it lasts 20K miles, for others it lasts 70-100K. Assuming driving style is normal, this seems indicative of quality control issues more than design flaw. I mean, yeah, there is a design flaw that you've described, but some people reported that their "updated" transmission failed and they report normal driving. I am hoping that those isolated cases of post Feb 2005 failure (such as StonedCL) are limited to the following:
1) Bad Install
2) Quality control ( re-manufactured transmissions are known to have higher defect ratio than the new ones produced)
3) Heavy SS usage (don't think people would do that after they got new transmission)

randomwalk101

So if you have your tranny recently replaced, you automatically get an extra 12,000 miles / 12 months warranty on the new tranny?

niju321

on the issue of quality control, IIRC there was some page floating around AZ that noted significantly different failure rates for japan made transmissions vs us made.

on the issue of ss, i don't see how that would cause a problem IF the ss is used in the same way as automatic (ie around 3000 rpm would produce same wear as a 3000 rpm auto shift)...

rhiannon1207

First, thanks for all of the information!

In response to Randomwalk101: I picked my TL up today after the new transmission was installed and I did receive a 12 month 12K warranty. Unfortunately, I'm fed up with this car and I'm probably going to get rid of it. I loved the 2009 that I had while my car was in the shop and plan to buy one of those. I hope this one is better.

russianDude

well, if quality control is improved and materials used for parts are more durable, then the latest transmission might last

01tl4tl

they are doing a lot better- just among ziners who had a replacement the reported refailure rate is low compared to the toal number of units replaced

People who feel bad things always happen to them will continue to attract the defect product/rebuild

russianDude

If Honda reported 2-3% failure rate for original transmissions, then the new ones should be even better? The only question was this 2-3% in 20K miles or 50K miles ?

01tl4tl

I dont have Hondas original number of failures but it was enough to warrant a class action lawsuit to double the warranty length~
back then- early failures were before 50k miles or just after

Any mechanical device is subject to failure, some more than others