850EX

Finally had some free time.

I bought a set of used 1994 Legend Coupe Front Calipers and installed them on my car. They are 2-piston rods versus our stock 1-piston (45mm?).

I got the Legend ones as they are cheaper (look exactly like stock). NSX ones cost more because of the NSX logo and gloss finish. Maybe the dumb dealers wont be able to tell the different when you take you car in for service.

Front Calipers that should work:
93-95 Legend LS Coupe (40mm and 38mm)
94-95 Legend GS Sedan
91-96 NSX (40mm and 36mm)
97+ NSX (not sure)

Cheapest place to get these are at recycled part places or junkyards. You can also get a rebuild kit if you are afraid these old ones dont work.

Costs: Used / New
Legend calipers $100-150 / $350+
NSX Calipers $300+ / $800+
Brake fluid to re-bleed brake-lines $10

Rebuild kit for Legend is roughly $70 for both sides which includes new seals and dust boots. I didn't rebuild mine since they were said to be fully functional when I bought them.

Total cost = $100 calipers + $10 brake fluid + $80 labour = ~$190

Install:
Take wheels off
Unscrew screws that hold caliper onto the caliper bracket .
Only need to use caliper from Legend/NSX; Just take caliper apart from Legend/NSX bracket.
The caliper from the Legend should BOLT-ON directly! It fits PERFECTLY!!
Bleed brake-lines (ask someone else to help you)
Lube all screws and bolt calipler on.
Get some brake cleaner and clean the caliper.
Bolt wheels back on and voila!

Total time: Just over 1 HOUR!!!!!! Btw, I did not install this myself. I had my friend do it for me. For those asking how hard it is? If you can change yourown tires and bleed your own brake-lines, then this will be a breeze. Otehrwise, Labour may cost you around say under $100...?

I did not bother to paint my calipers as I am time constrained at the moment. Maybe in the future.

Performance:
Our stock 1-piston are much thicker but with 2-pistons, it redistributes the pressure when the caliper clamps the brake pads providing better brake stability/pressure even longer padwear. I am currenty still using my stock brake pads.

So far from my test over the week, I do notice better pedal feel. None of that "touch brake slighly and whole car jerks" syndrome. I feel I have more control of the whole car (similar to the feel from having SS Brakelines). I think this is a pretty cheap upgrade and decent upgrade. I cant prove I stop faster as I havent had time to test or mash the gas pedal in the city. Maybe mid-summer.

I came upon this project when my buddy told me I should get better brakes. He was going to do it on his old Prelude until he ended up selling it. Then I searched around and found others doing it as well. Dont you just love Honda. Lots of parts are easily interchangeable between cars.

Pics???? Sorry I didnt take any. I did this late at nite at 10pm! Believe if you want I guess.
They look just like stock....unless you paint them calipers.
QUestions/comments??? Otherwise...

dimsumo

I need to save more money

nice setup

johnnyb_s

It sounds very interesting, but why would Honda choose to go with a 1 piston set-up versus 2 like they had on the Legends? I wonder if their engineers thought that the 1 piston caliper was better than the 2 piston ones. I would love to do this modification, but only if there is proof that in fact this is an upgrade. It all sounds good in theory, but reality is a whole other thing...

850EX

An example is going to the grocery store and getting 2 bags full of groceries with the same weight.
With your left hand (1-piston caliper), you would only use 1 finger to hold one bag of groceries.
With your right hand (2-piston caliper), you would use 2 fingers and hold the other bag of groceries.
Which hand will have less stress? I am sure the right hand using 2 fingers (2-piston) will have less stress as the pressure is spread between the two fingers (2-piston calipers).

The effect is with 2-piston calipers, it will help minimize stress to you braking components and be able to endure mashing of the peddle with better response over time. It will not give you instant effective braking power. I think tires and new pads can do that. Brakelines will give you a better feel. The upgrade from 1 to 2-piston does improve braking by gripping the pads faster with less stress.

Does that make sense?

johnnyb_s

The theory makes sense, especailly with that example. But that would be assuming that the "fingers" were the same exact length, diameter, etc...Now do the pistons in the one piston calipers have a greater circumfrence than the each of the ones in the two piston calipers? I think that they do, which means you can't do a simple one to one comparison, i.e. the grocery example with the fingers. If that was the case, then the "strength" of each of the smaller pistons would be exactly one-half the "strength" of the larger piston, which then would allow your theory of less stress to hold true. However, that would have to be proved; i.e. calculating the amount of force generated by the one piston as compared to the sum of the two smaller pistons, etc.

I think a two piston set-up may be better, but I'm no engineer...so if anyone would be as so kind to do the calculations, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Thai.95LCoupe

From a guy that owns a 95 Legend Coupe (but is not mechanically inclined.. He He) I would get that the G2 Legend Coupe and Sedan from 93-95 used the larger rotor because of the introduction of the Type II 230 HP 3.2 V6 (that's why 2 piston calipers were nessary) I believe..

The Type II were used for speed iMO so this is what deem the bigger pistons.

850EX

The Stock TL piston is about 45mm in diameter
The two Legend pistons are 40mm and 38mm in diameter each.


The "strength" of each smaller Legend piston is greater than half of one stock TL piston in this case.

johnnyb_s

Are the two pistons on the same side of the caliper? How much bigger are the Legend calipers than the TL calipers? You did say that they will fit in the bracket. Also, do you know if Legend rotors would fit on our TLs? Are the Legend rotors bigger? Would this be a direct swap as well?

Thanks for putting up with all the questions

WhiteLegend

Legend rotors probably won't fit, due to the different size hub.

patrick

So 850EX, this is what you've been up to! This would be a good mod if it does give you better brake stability and longer brake pad life. Have you discussed this mod with an Acura service rep to see if this would work?

Hope to see ya in the next TL meet. We can all discuss about our mods.

rockinTLS

A TL caliper piston (assuming 45mm diameter) has a piston surface area of 1590 sq mm. The Legend caliper pistons have a TOTAL surface area of 2512 sq mm (40mm x 2) (158% more) and 2267 sq mm (38mm x 2) (143% more) while the NSX calipers have a TOTAL surface area of 2034 mm (36 mm X 2) (128% more).

While these two piston calipers will supply greater braking due to their larger pressure area, etc. they will also require additional fluid proportional to their size. They really should be used in conjunction with a different master cylinder and proportioning valve.

I'm glad it works for you but would be careful in slippery stopping situations since the car is not designed for the extra braking capacity at the front wheels and the VSA or TCS may not be able to accurately adjust for it.

Just my 2 cents.

BTW, the reason the new TL does not use 2 piston calipers is $$$. Very few people even know the difference and do not care if they have one, two or even four pistons at each wheel. Performance is why there is an aftermarket. To put it into perspective: the 95 Legend GS went new for about $43K and is still worth about $20K. I personally feel it STILL seriously outclasses our outstanding TL or TL-S.

PhiTL

Very good points everyone. I have a question of my own...

rockinTLS brings up that with the new calipers a new master cylinder and proportioning might need to be installed. I'm curious if Brembo or other brakes/caliper manufactures recommends this?

patrick

Your comments are very intriguing. So in order to make this mod work correctly (according to your statements), you will need to upgrade the master cylinder and valve? What upgrade would you use to do this? Aftermarket or transplant from a Legend? Oh man, this thread is one of the most interesting topics I've read in a long time!

rockinTLS

I actually think it's a pretty cool idea and the calipers may work perfectly without incident. In fact, I hope they do.

The thing is that the factory brakes (front and rear) were ENGINEERED to work with a certain capacity master cylinder and a certain size brake caliper. Yes, it's true that the Brembo units do not come with or require a new master cylinder or valve. However, they are also engineered to work on a certain application. It's also safe to say that the factory units work within a certain range, which 850EX's conversion may well fall within.

Hey, best of luck.

I may not be wise or all knowing, just a bit cautious.

patrick

OK 850EX, your the guinea pig now! :p Keep us updated on this mod, especially during heavy braking. We all wanna know
if this mod is as good as it sounds.

johnnyb_s

I think the best bet would be to go buy new Legend parts from the auto part store and swap those out, if they fit. We know the calipers are a direct swap, now what about rotors, master cylinder, etc...will this affect the abs mechanism?

patrick

Good question....you want to the second guinea, er, dude to try this mod?

PhiTL

Also, I forgot to ask, do these clear the stock wheels? I took a look at my calipers and there is VERY little room with the stock calipers.

Sorry for all the questions.

850EX

RokicnTLS,
Thanks for all the answers. I have been out of town for awhile so no Internet.
Braking seems to be ok so far. Even from what my gf has said.
The Master Cylinder is a good question but I cant answer you on that one. From my current experience, it seems ok. How would I know if I would need to change the Master cylinder (to a Legend one)?

WhiteLegend is correct. I doubt Legend rotors fit the TL.

Patrick,
Acura Service Reps dont know squat here. They know Legends have 2-piston calipers...blah blah..But they of course dont recommend anything you do to your car either.


PhiTL,
The Legend calipers clear fine. They are identical to stock!!!!

JohnnyBS,
The 2-piston Legend calipers are both on the same side.


So far I have driven on wet and slippery roads and performance seems to be the same on dry. Brakes feel softer and allow you more control on them. You can say it has a similar feel to upgrading to SS brakelines.

BTW..those who fly within Canada.....
AVOID TANGO. THEY SUCK!!!!!

Bfor3

iTrader: (2)

Very curious how this all turned out... anyone else try this mod with success!!! Is there anything else we could swap out to improve the rear calipers as well or is that just not worth it???

smartypants

Hey All :

I've been reading this brake mod thread cuz I started one as well. One thing would worry me is, if you had an accident (even if its not your fault) would your insurance claim be jepardized if they discover you've modded the brakes ? They do ask if you have modified the car and if you have, then they go through the list of mods and adjust your insurance. (upwards of course !)

Maybe a red herring but you niever know !

Smartypants

fsttyms1

iut wouldnt change any thing. they are a direct bolt on. unless you screwed up the install every thing will work

PDX3.2TL

So does anyone have this mod currently on their TL? Wondering because I am looking at getting the same setup now.

TunedTL

I have it on my 00 TLP. Only difficulties I ran across was getting bolts/pins off, (Thanks Kris for the tips on tools) and the marking on calipers. L should be installed on the passenger side if you want bleeding valves to be on the upper sides on calipers.

patrick

Please post pics if you have them, I'd love to see them.

PDX3.2TL

was the install pretty straight forward or did you just go to a brake shop? Also did you see any difference in braking at all? I've heard both stories...

TunedTL

It is not hard to install.
1) loosen two pins/bolts with a 1/2 inch drive 6 pt 14mm socket, I used a torque wrench since Acura tighten them well above 36 lb-ft
2) use socket wrench to loosen bolt that brake line connect to caliper, use something like a bottle/pan to collect brake fluid.
3) Take out TL caliper and mount Legend caliper. Use TL's bolts to mount Legend caliper to TL's bracket. Legend caliper marked with "L" should be mounted on the passenger side, just make sure bleeder valve is on the upper side of caliper.
4) bleed brakes. A good time to flush your old fluid out.

Don't have pics since I stayed up until 11pm last night to paint my calipers with black G2 paint w/ Acura decal. Braking is better, just make sure you bleed all air out of the system.

TunedTL

Here is pictures of 2 piston brake caliper, per a member's request.

R is for right caliper but it should be mounted on the left.

850EX

My brakes and calipers are still going strong 3 years later.

Only changes are Rotora brake discs and Axxis Ultimate brake pads.

Braking has been better since the new rotors and pads. Even better control when braking.

e30cabrio

iTrader: (6)

Thanks for the info. Will these calipers fit on a 97 3.0 CL?

acitydweller

If the TL were a true sports car, it would have a functional parking break in the center console...

:P

01tl4tl

wow- dead thread back- the legend caliper upgrade is a must do-2007 results
Acura is like everyone- save a buck everywhere in manufacture

Its a Touring Luxery car= TL get it?
not a miata solstice rx vette viper or other type true sports car.
And none of them feature 4 doors and a comfortable ride on trips

datzdaboi

Wow old ass thread revived

gatrhumpy

iTrader: (1)

Less talky more pictures.