awood

Very amusing. I hate to admit it, but I once owned a Hyundai (I think it was a 91 Sonata - paid $12,500 new). Back then, Hyundai was just in their first stage of many image makeovers. They were cheap (Ford Taurus as about $17,000 at the time), and the salesman assured me that all their problems from the 80's had been ironed out. Well ... too late to make a long story short, but the car was the biggest pile of cr@p you've ever seen. It literally fell apart, and paint was falling off within 4 years.

So many years later, I buy a 2002 TL-S, and what happens .... the paint starts falling off in 3 years. Granted it was just the clear code on the window trim, but on a "luxury" car?

Back when the new Accord came out last year, I noted that they finally ditched the black trim in favor of metal accent stipping on the window. It was always painted dull black on the Accord and just "taped" glossy black on the Acrua. So I figure "great, the Acura is finally ditching the black tape!". Then the 2004 TL comes out with windows all taped up - just like my 2002.

I don't care if the dealer does replace them under warranty. The window trim on a luxury car shouldn't start wrinkling after one year and then start flaking paint after 3.

The door locks, spedometer, electric widows all broke on that 91 Huyndai, and the paint was falling off the car, but the window trim held up better than the Acura - and so did the transmission for that matter.

Senven

I have yet to have a vehicle that hasn't had multiple problems. To date the two chrysler vehicles i have owned have been the least troublesome.
listed in order of purchase.

84 Dodge Colt turbo, mitsubishi product, loved it for first car, but tons and tons of trouble
voltage regulator went south, fried almost everything electrical before fusible link burnt. thank GOD it was under warranty, thank GOD I bought extended warranty
85 toyota turbo Pickup, loved this truck but was terribly unreliable, two headgaskets, cracked head, two turbos, oil pump, water pump, front seal, fan clutch, lost 3rd gear in AT, numerous AC problems
90 Mitsubishi Galant, decent car, in the shop too many times for small issues, TPS failed twice and left me stranded, totalled when I got rearended at about 45mph
94 Jeep grand cherokee, great SUV, very few problems, AC switch failed under warranty, radiator cracked out of warranty, thats it in 100+K miles
:flamer: 97 Chevy S-10 Blazer, biggest piece of shit I have ever owned, worst dealers I have ever delt with, in the shop no less than 10 times for numerous problems including complaints of trans/drivetrain clunking/slipping/jerking, dealer never found a problem, then as soon as it was out of warranty, dealer says trans is shot and wants thousands for new tranny, screw GM :sqntfawk: :fingerfawk:
95 Acura Integra GSR, loved it, miss it, want it back, but did have a numerous problems fixed under warranty, exhaust manifold, clutch master cylinder, got hit in it, traded it wrecked
95 dodge Ram 1500 4x4, still going strong, some annoyances but nothing has failed
98 Honda Accord, nice car, got rid of it when tranny was starting to fail
2000 Honda CRV, forgot about this one initially, least problems of them all probably but didnt keep it but 50k miles, relative owns it and no problems with over 130k miles on it
2002 Acura TL, wifes car, we both like it alot, but has had numerous problems, tranny went out, rearview mirror, all window trim, bent rim, warped rotors.

Toyota truck was most costly vehicle to keep going but with 200k miles still felt like a new truck

Why did I type all this, hell if i know
Just felt like ringing in on the subject

awood

Yeah, I think the second round of window trim problems was the last straw for me. I know everyone makes mistakes, but Acura has known the window trim has been an issue since at least 2000, and still didn't change it on the 2004. If they weren't so hung up on making the window trim look like BMW's, perhaps they could up the quality a bit. I'd take the Accord's metal trim over shiny black tape any day.

indoMFP

I would take the Bentley any day..... classy and not a wannabe, like the Chrysler... I do think the Chrysler does look sharp, and I would drive it, but the first mod I would do to that car would be to change out the grill to the mesh......

awood

If you don't like "wannabe"s, then why do you own an Acura?? I like my TL-S, and don't regret buying it, but if its not a BMW 545 wannabe, then nothing is.

awood

WOW! I just noticed the new BWM has metal trim on the windows, not gloss black paint!! Does this mean Acura may finally ditch the shinny black tape on their windows???

indoMFP

Awood, I have the '03 TL, what car looks like that (aside from the sister Accord)??? :fingerfawk:

Maybe I should rephrase my statement, it just seems a lot of car companies are trying to bite off eachother. I mean would you really mistake an 04 maxima for a Lexus GS? or a 04 Acure TL for a 05 BMW 5-series?? I mean the cars are not even comparible.... The Lex will kick the shit out of the Max and the beemer will kill a TL..... but it is funny that car companies try to emulate and fail..... I mean the Chrysler does look like a Bentley, but no one in their right mind is going to mistake a $22k Chrysler for a $200k Bentley Arnage.

Also, people buy their cars for different reasons. That is like me saying that every person that purchased a 04 TL only bought their cars because it looked ike a BMW 5-series, that is a false statement. I was just trying to say that too many designers are not coming up with fresh ideas, they just look at other peoples cars and copy them.... that sucks .....

We need designers that come up with fresh designs.... a la the Diamond Star ( i think it was them, someone correct me if i am wrong) company that introduced to us the old eclipses and 3000GT (also known as the Talons and Stealths).... those are designs that were original and that folks were proud of.....

i need to take a :shit: so leave me alone....

awood

I have the 2002 TL-S. From the side it looks just like a 2000'ish BMW 530. I know because at work I park on the outter edge, and its filled with BMW's. There is no doubt where Acura is getting their design inspiration.

I honestly think the Chrysler looks better than the Bently. I'm not the one who initially made the comparison, but when I went looking for Bently photos, I was shocked. It looks like 70's sedan to which someone added a walnut dashboard veneer. You'd think for $235K that you'd at least get a NAV system. I guess in your eyes NAV systems have no class either.

Bottom line is that the Bently has more snob-appeal than curb-appeal. Its for people who want to drive a car that no one else can afford.

If you offer me the Bently or the Chrysler with $200K cash, I'd take the Chrysler and the cash. Heck, I'd take the Chrysler plus $100K cash over the Bently and save myself the hassle of trying to sell it.

But back to your post, I see the Chrysler as being no more of a "wannabe" than the TL.

figueroa1357

yea mee to

indoMFP

No, the NAV is classy if one can afford such a luxury. The comments made were just to state that designers are really dropping the ball whe it comes to new cars. but to each his own, right?

Tom Blasing

It was indeed Diamond Star Motors (DSM) that put out the Eclipse/Talon/Laser in Normal, Illinois from 1989 to current. It was called the BD-Body for the 2nd Gen.

I do sometimes miss my 94' Talon ES (2.0L 16V). It handled very well and tire wear was never a poblem (OEM set went @29k miles but 2nd set is still on it @ 94k miles!). I sold it to a good friend that doesn't have a lot of money and 3 kids of his own. The MPG in that car on the highway was phenominal! With 35lbs in the front tires (33lbs. rear), a Borla CatBack, K&N drop in filter and a ported exhaust manifold it got about 41mpg. The window sticker at the dealership when I bought it new said 27mpg highway. Oh yea, 4sp auto trans too. All from a car that only weighed in @ 2,712lbs. But I was making a lot more money now wanted something else.

awood

Fair enough. I can see the Chrysler has a somewhat of a negative rep that I need to consider before deciding what to buy.

In the mean time, Honda/Acura still can't seem to build a transmission these days. Just when you think the tranny days are behind them, there's a new tranny recall (this time on the Odyssey/Pilot/MDX).

Thanks to all for all the feedback. I think the best thing to do is wait a few months - see how the 2004 TLs hold up, if the 300Cs start showing problems, and see the rest of the 2005 models in general.

Darkshear

iTrader: (1)

dont do it. please. dear god please.

1SICKLEX

No way in hell. The TL-S has huge front overhang, the 530 has a very short front overhang. The sides are totally different. The 530 has a long wheelbase, the TL short.
The 2004 TL looks like an 2000ish 530. Not a TL-S at all.

awood

Well, I looked again today on the way in (before I read your message). I may have been comparing to a 4-door 300 series or an even older 500 series, but I'm not sure. I'll pay closer attention next time. I've been parking next to BMWs with my 2002TLS for over 3 years now, and I still think there is much more than a passing similarity.

However, since I can't go to Edmunds for photos of either car, I'll concede the argument rather than spend time searching for pics.

spl1011

Just FYI i read about the 300C in a Mag (I forget if it was C&D or MT.)
But the build quality of the 300c (C means it has the huge, inneffecient Hemi) will never match that in build quality as that of other cars approaching 40k.
Why? The article pointed out that Mercedez, which pulls Chyslers strings, would be silly in creating competition for its own maket (low-end E-classes or a high-end C in this case).

In my opinion, I revert back to when I was shopping for a ca. I loved the Altima's when they came out and wanted the V6, with the goodies here and there - hey why not?
But then it dawned on me. Sure, add "leather", six disk changer, yada yada, but it is still the 17k car that is the base Altima. Same plastic interior. Same styling even, as its 17k sibbling. So I figgured, why pay 29k for a 17k car?
So I opted for a TLs, which, granted it is much like the accord, is engineered to be an upgraded 30k car. And lets not forget dealer service and the irefutable "bling bling" factor.

I respect the 300 style, but personnaly, I love to drive with my arm out the window and the high window line in that car would really make me feel like I am driving an armored car.

LS's were nice when I test drove them, but lacked the open feeling and comfort given by my TL's interior.

Happy shopping!

AcuraT

I have to say this disagreement is funny. Honda/Acura for years has been saying (senior executives) that their goal is to out-BMW BMW. I wish I could find one of the quotes, as I have heard this more than once. It is not just a concidence that every generation TL has looked somewhat like a BMW series car, particularly the latest version. Fascinating thing is that Consumer Reports now ranks the TL higher than the BMW it tested in every way except handling - where the two were just about equal. So Honda reached their goal in two generations.

Regarding the Mercedes/Chrysler 300 - wait and see what Consumer Reports says about its reliability before purchasing. As much as you have hated going to get the TL fixed, you will be a worse bind if you get a product that has more problems. The 300 is based on a Mercedes model (just like the Crossfire is based on the SLK, last generation). Mercedes has been below average in CU, and you will just be getting those problems if they were not fixed in going to Chysler.

Here is the irony - GM is winning initial quality awards all over the place. They now have the best two plants in America - Hamtrack, MI (Cadillac) was one of them. at #2. The Japanese only had two plants in the top 10 - Nissan (#8) and Honda/Acura (the Accord/TL plant), I think it was #9). I like the CTS, but as stated, the interior could stand some better looking parts. I also know according the Consumer Reports over long run, GM's Cadillac still has more problems that Honda or Toyota. Now, if you were willing to buy a Buick... just kidding. Buick now has reliable cars according to CU, but who wants one?

Good luck.

Ruski

I once leased a '99 Chrysler 300M and it was a great car. I didn't have any problems with it.

Ruski

300C is actually quite good with fuel economy.

Ruski

You probably drove a garden variety 300M. I used to have 300M with performance suspension and it had a very firm ride (so firm that most dealers in Florida didn't even order it). It could corner quite well.

Tom Blasing

Not to be picky but it's Hamtramck. It's also a real nasty part of town too, kind of Harlem-esk.

Ruski

What do you mean it doesn't perform? 5.3 seconds 0-60 is not good enough for you?

and please spare me the Acura reliability myth. I am on my 3rd transmission.

Ruski

how do you know? 300C has been released a very short time ago, there is no statistical data yet to show whether its quality sucks or not.

Ruski

I didn't have any problems like that with my 300M. The transmission lock in 2nd is not a failure. The tranny simply goes into limp mode because there is an error code. In most cases (happened to me to) it was caused by a faulty engine speed sensor. A replacement sensor is $25 (if out of warranty) and you can even replace it yourself.

This doesn't compare to a total tranny failure with Acura TL.

Ruski

you are wrong, 300Cs are flying off the lots.

MADCAT

Is this all we do here is say statements and argue?
Why can't we all get along and hate other car comapnies as one group?

Ruski

Don't be upset about Impala SS. It has the same supercharged 3.8L V6 engine as Pontiac Grand Prix GTP that I used to drive. That's 240HP and 280 pounds of torque. GTP was(is) a 6.6 second car, so Impala SS should be pretty close and wouldn't have a problem holding its own against TL-S, especially since it makes 280 pounds of torque at relatively low RPMs.

When I drive my TL-S, I often get beaten at high speed by cars that are slower by definition, yet they manage to beat me. For example late model Camry or a Chrysler Sebring...

I think your TL-S is similar to mine. On a good day, if it feels like it, it moves very fast, but on a bad day it looses to lesser cars.

vsop TL-S

Is it a good idea? No. Sorry I couldn't be of more help but that is my quick, in a nutshell, short analysis of your question. Alright, have a good day and enjoy whatever it is you choose.

Edward'TLS

This is the safety trend right now driving on roads roaming with high-bumpered SUV's. Take a look at the '04 TL and you'll find the window line also moving up as well. The higher metal door will protect you more in a side impact collision, rather than having the SUV's bumper going through the glass window straight into your face.

Vicman17

Get it in Black and tint the windows dark. It'll look like "The Car", that old James Brolin movie about a demonized sedan. I'm not kidding.

As for serious advice, I won't trust any first year model, whether Japanese, German or Martian. Just too many problems that hasn't been out in the open yet. Unless you want to be a test bed for future Chrysler customers.

Whatever your decision is, the best of luck.

Ruski

well, someone has to buy them.

Vicman17

They are made here in Brampton, ON in Canada. I pass by a decomissioned airfield at Downsview close to my work and there are thousands of 300s and Magnum wagons (not even sold in Canada) awaiting their U.S. buyers.

Just tell your friends to keep buying them to stimulate the economy.

CJITTY

I drove the 5.7 Hemi version, and I was not impressed. Nice interior, but for the money, there are a lot of better cars out there. Not only that, you'll end up in a year or so getting the dreaded creaks and rattles of a Dodge.

ResidualFreedom

"come Along And Ride On My Fansatsic .....voyage"

rocket6871

quick question....why are VW passats not being mentioned?....i test drove the V6 and W8...both felt good, and the interior looks good too...but being a VW it really isnt a head turner....

indoMFP

They are not being mentioned cause most dudes that drive them are either gay or wish they were.... :fingerfawk:

indoMFP

Buick?!?!?! What the fuck? Do I look like Tiger Woods? :fingerfawk: Man, if I drove a buick I would be the laughing stock at my grandparents retirement center... Now, Cadillac, that my friend is a different story..... I think I would only drive very few domestic cars, among them some cadillacs (STS, DTS, Escalade... yeah, just like in the rap videos), maybe an older generation Impala SS with the LS1 or LS2 engines, a corvette...... and lastly a corvette.... man can those things haul ass....

billmatt

No!

1SICKLEX

Pot calling the kettle black?

awood

I grew up believing the hype about the wondeful German engineering of Volkswagon.

My first used car was a 1979 Volkswagon Rabbit. The A/C went out after a year. It would overheat in traffic unless I had the insider heat on full blast (yes, heat in the middle of summer). It also had touble doing 60 M.P.H against a stiff wind. By about 1988, it had fallen completely apart (the headlights didn't even work).

Being a slow learner, my next used car was a 1984 Volkswagon Jetta. I've never seen a more cheaply build piece of cr@p in my life - including my Hyundai. Windows broke, door locks, handles, trim came off. Brake master cylinder, starter moter, fuel pump - you name it, it went out. Also, the VW dealer in where I lived at the time totally screwed me on a service job.

I will never own a VW or Audi.