KrAzYForever

Hello everyone,

I have been reading conflicting reports through the search function, so I felt compelled to start this thread. My car is having idling problems. The RPM's are fluctuating, the car stutters when i accelerate and it is also shaky. The check engine light came on and my mechanic pulled the code and said that I need to change the Mass Air Flow Sensor. However, I have read in this forum, that our car does not have this part. Also, when I come to a stop sign or get off the freeway, my car sometimes stalls out.

Can someone please throw some knowledge in my direction tonight, so I know how to go about things in the morning?

Thanks so much!

01tl4tl

year and miles?

we need the actual code that was pulled to narrow it down

does the idle go from 1000 to 1500 and drop and rise in that range?
dirty iacv idle air control,,no biggie to clean
stalls and rough running, every TL needs the egr passage inside the intake manifold cleaned and its ports,,every 75kmiles
it will go longer and run worse as time goes by,,do it every 75kmiles to keep on top of problem
the TB/with iacv inside gets done at the same time--removed from car together

hows the spark plug age? has the correct 8 dollar each ngk plugs?
how long have you owned the car?
91 octane gas?

also go to the parts store and ask for an electrical system test- batt and alt system,,its free

you will need to clear the codes and reset ecu after each fix --pull the CLOCK fuse on passenger end of dash for a minute and insert

mass airflow code hahahahahaha
that proves codes are clues,,, not diagnosis in themselves

Skirmich

The "Mass Airflow Sensor" sits on top of the Throttle Body, That little Thing that is Visible trough the Engine Cover.
I havent seen a Single Car with Fuel Injection that doesnt have it! (Be it MAS or MAP) even my Old Pontiac 6000 1987 with ROM ECU had it
(I remember becouse it was a constant PITA to Replace)..

You dont seem to find it on the Forum becouse in our Car its not Called "Mass Airflow Sensor" its called "Manifold Absolute Pressure Sensor" or "MAP Sensor" for Short.

Basically some cars have BOTH but the difference is:
MAS goes Before the Throttle Body.
MAP goes in or after the Throttle Body.

Both do the Same thing but the MAP sensor is more Maintenance Free since its not in the way of the Flow of the Air.

PIC:

KrAzYForever

2003 and 142,000 miles. I have owned the car for 6 years & I always use 91 octane. The spark plug age - I am unsure.

Wow...that is a lot of information - thanks for all of that! I have discovered that it has a MAP Sensor, not a MAF Sensor.

I appreciated the detailed reply, thank you very much.

Skirmich

NEVERMIND (EDIT):

http://www.partsgeek.com/catalog/200...ap_sensor.html

77 Bucks /FREE SHIP! and its DENSO! OEM Part! cant beat it.

KrAzYForever

Thank you Skirmich! I have concluded that I need to acquire a new sensor AND clean the area up.

Question - my car has been eating gas like no other. Full tank lasts about 9 days. I don't do a lot of driving. Would this affect that?

01tl4tl

could be or an o2 sensor or several other things
we need the codes!

I would not buy a sensor yet,,if its that hard to find on this forum= its not a normal failure
there are a few odd things the TL encounters,,,lets work the problem from the codes and symptoms

poor mpg = something is wrong
6 years and you never did the plugs = needs new plugs
as well as the egr and iacv cleaning- includes clean all parts of TB

140kmiles+ you did the 105 service= timing belt and water pump?
now its ready for valve adjustment too...with manifold off for egr cleaning the valve covers are exposed for access,,overlapping labor

KrAzYForever

What is egr and iacv? and clean parts of TB? what is TB? Sorry, I am unfamiliar with this lingo. I did do the 105 service and have a new water pump and timing belt. Spark plugs...got it. Thanks for your wisdom!

Skirmich

The Manifold and TB cleaning process involve in removing the Intake Manifold and Clean it Manually! With that amount of Mileage carbon is bound to build up on the Manifold + EGR passeges that Makes the car IDLE ratically and get poor MPG! If you can get those Codes we can further help you out! There are Codes for EGR Block and O2 Sensors Fouling! We need those codes to Diagnose.

There are Several Posts in here and I believe there is a DIY on the DIY Section... If your not that mechanically inclined you can do the Seafoam Method but it doesnt get the same Results as to Remove the Complete thing and Cleaning it Manually.

3.2TLc

Hey KrAzYForever, Has this problem just started out of the blue recently ? Any recent work or changes that
may have stirred up the gremlins ? It could simply be some bad reformulated winter gas. Try some fuel system cleaner to help clean the injectors.

Take your car to a local auto parts store to have the code checked and tell us what it is. Also have them load test your electrical system while you're there. It may not be a bad idea to have the cooling system pressure checked for leaks.....if the coolant is low or has trapped air, this can cause an erratic idle.

If it's been awhile, perform a basic tune-up : NGK plugs, air filter & pcv valve.
Check all electrical and vacuum connections. If the code shows a misfire, you may have tired coil which could cause these symptons.

fsttyms1

Don't call it a mass air flow sensor that sits on top of the throttle body. They are different and saying it like you did is very confusing The map sensor monitors pressure while maf monitors flow.

fsttyms1

If your idle is bouncing up and down your issue is a stuck/dirty iacv (idle air control valve) located on the bottom of the throttle body.. If it hasn't been done I would recommend having the whole intake manifold cleaned ie.. egr ports,throttle body and iacv.

KrAzYForever

Thank you for all these replies and all the help. Unfortunately the shop has already cleared the codes. We think it MIGHT have been P1108 or P1106. Does this ring a bell? If it comes back on, I will definitely post them up here. I am having the spark plugs checked and getting the whole manifold system cleaned as we speak.

KrAzYForever

A few codes were listed the first time around, and he cleared them. One of them said high voltage. The next time around, only one code came back and it was for the MAP sensor that we are discussing here. I have no idea why some were there before, but only one came back. Just thought that I'd throw this bit in. Sorry for the lack of information. I really wish I saved all the codes. I didn't think that it'd come to this.

Skirmich

OP Believed it was a "Mass Airflow Sensor" if you look trough my Post I Explained that its not that sensor, how its called and the difference between the 2...
"MAP = Manifold Absolute Pressure", "MAF = Mass Air Flow".
One Sits Before the Throttle Body (Thus Airflow) and the Other on the Throttle Body or Manifold hence "Pressure"..
I wasnt really going that deep of an Explanation he just wanted to locate the thing.

He Understood tough...



To OP: I believe Cleaning the IACV is in ORDER! Its quite easy just need to undo the Thottle Body only! Mine had a Little Carbon Build up on it and got rough idle trough stops, Cleaned it and its now Working like New.

fsttyms1

I under stand that, but if you take a look at the very first thing you typed, it says
Then the next sentence could confuse even more
I know you tried to explain it but it is a little confusing, especially to those who dont know the difference or what they are. You should have started out with (changed in bold) it would have made thing a lot more clear

01tl4tl

if the shop is doing the work,say to them,,IACV = idle air control valve (Rod)
is located inside a cover on bottom of TB =Throttle body, that gets clogged and stuck = idle jump
,The TB came off the car attached to the manifold
must remove to clean manifold internals

inside the intake manifold is a series of passageways and ports that exhaust gas EGR Exhaust Gas Recirculation, sends some exhaust gas thru these to be reburned for smog reduction
the crud in exhaust clogs these tiny ports,,,messes up the engine running

they should be using a `soak tank` to loosen the egr crud, then ram a long flex metal rod that looks like barbed wire and steel brush-
thru the LENGTH of the passage inside manifold

this is a critical step--just hitting the ports wont fix the problem
ASK what they are doing,,tell them your car club wants to know

inspect our plugs? no--
it you had the car more than 60kmiles and didnt change them = its ready for plugs
ngk iridium or ngk iridium ix approx 8 bucks each at parts store/ 50 bucks a set of 6
accept no substitute brands! they wont work
if shop wants to install bosch or delco- they have never worked on a TL!!

note- total labor amount is reduced when you do all these together,,,already have this off to get that,,,pop these in and now its runnin right

after that- seafoam thru fuel tank, 1 can to just under half a tank- twice,
and enjoy the next year of trouble free driving

please call the shop and find out what the thiink they are doing,,,
versus actual TL fanatics who devote their time to knowing the secret problems of ONE type car,,while they have to know general things about many cars!!
that clogged egr system will fool most techs,,codes dont make sense,,problem doesnt make sense..

KrAzYForever

I got my car back already. They cleaned out the entire manifold system, they said. The job took about 2-3 hours. Forgot to do spark plugs, but I will have it done soon. The car is driving fine now and the biggest problem has now vanished.

When I push down on the gas, it still vibrates a little bit at higher speeds, but nothing like before. Is this normal? Also, gas is still burning quickly. What could be causing that? I am assuming that they cleaned the entire manifold system and all, I know they did a big job. I will find out details, so thanks for pointing that out. They said they put some chemical deep in there that burns the rest of everything up, that they cannot reach, so that if I see smoke, not to worry, that is normal....the residue is burning away. My main concern right now is my MPG...

Skirmich

Change Spark Plugs and Engine Air Filter those 2 are Common MPG Killers...
Going to the Extreme? Might need to check the CAT for blockage...

01tl4tl

what a pos shop,,that job is DIY 2 hours at a casual pace
forgot to do the spark plugs? what???!!!!
and how much discount are they giving on labor next time?

and car still not running right--should be smooth from idle to full throttle

cleaner..probably threw in a can of bg44 (hopefully seafoam) in tank
wont see smoke in exhaust,, but its cleaning important things
see seafoam threads for whats happening

KrAzYForever

I am on partsgeek right now. What is the best air filter and spark plugs to get? How many spark plugs do I need?

You guys are all awesome!

3.2TLc

NGK's PZFR5F-11 are the factory original plugs. NGK has Irridum's also. Do ya still have the original 3.2 V-6 motor in your
TL or the supercharged V-8 option ? Normally, the complete set of six plugs is replaced for best results. (unless you just so happen to have the SC option)

K & N makes an excellent replacement air filter for our 3.2 V-6, unsure of the SC option ?

careface

Go to Rock Auto for parts, they are cheaper and have a better selection with an easier menu to search. With the miles you have, I bet the mounts are pretty worn on that vehicle unless you have replaced them before. Plugs are very easy on this car and I agree with the recommendation for NGK Iridium IX plugs. Seafoam through the throttle body cleaned the inside of my manifold quite well ( looked sparkly clean when we removed it to clean the upper egr passages ). The EGR passages however were just NASTY. The openings were more than 50% clogged. Took about 4 cans of throttle body cleaner to clean but afterwards, the car was so responsive to throttle alterations that overtaking on the hwy required a minute flex of my toe.

For motor mounts , I do not recommend any aftermarket ones. OE will be the most comfortable and last you the longest. I replaced all my mounts including the trans mounts as well. If you do change the mounts , I recommend installing Ingall's ETD with it as well, phenomenal product, helps your mounts last longer and increases the responsiveness of your powertrain as well.


Timing Belt + Water Pump if you havent done that yet.
Plugs
Clean Intake Manifold + Adjust Valve Timing ( this isnt a job for everyone, make sure the tech knows what he is doing )
Clean IACV
Replace mounts if torn/worn/damaged
Install Ingall's ETD if replacing mounts
Chevron Techron/Redline SI-1 in your gas tank
Replace O2 Sensors if you have a bit of spare cash. They get lazy over time, not wanting to go into closed loop costing you gas while your engine runs rich leaving more deposits in the system. Pre-Cat is more important than the post cat sensor.


Also if your rpms are constantly fluctuating as you are driving, being that its a TL, it might be a trans getting ready to go out unfortunately.

careface

When was a S/C V8 or a S/C V6 ever an option on the TL ?

01tl4tl

that SC comment should have been in red to indicate sarcasm

they all came with the same engine,,3.2 liters / V6 engine style and number of cylinders
but
with a different cam and intake for the Type S when it was introduced,,it uses a different heat range plugs for type S,,the middle number of spark plug is heat range,,5 6 7 etc

NGK is the ONLY way to go for stock engine,,came stock and best for the car
approx 8 dollars each, or 50 usa dollar for a set of 6,,need one per cylinder~

get the Iridium or Iridium IX (if you think you are a racer)
difference is 10kmiles in life, so in another 60-70kmiles it will be time for plugs again
most years had ngk platinum,,but irids are better and now cheaper!
gen3 uses them as stock plug

seafoam thru master vac port/TB inlet is quick and instant= effective,
but gas tank method does same parts, plus all the fuel system = very important to do

paper engine air filter 25$ must replace every year or 2
k&n cleanable filter, clean every year or 2, from $15 kit that does it 5 times!
filter last longer than the car,,1 million mile warranty!

most use this with the resonator box removal for way better airflow, and CAI type colder air temps to the engine = all good

ck your local parts stores for the plugs, they often meet or beat prices
get $1 small pack of spark plug anti sieze for the threads
get 1 foot vacuum line, to lower new plugs into hole = start with fingertip control and feel so you dont cross thread them = total bummer

ck the front and pass side engine mounts,,front breaks at 70kmiles and side goes after that
Look up from under car for any traces of oily fluid,,and on ground behind radiator center- oil drips
side mount is normal car solid rubber type,,ck with pressure/tension (prybar)

note: front and rear mounts are vacuum boosted = so a failure also causes a mystery vac leak and engine miss

Kajan_8

I've seen these problems in Mazda 3s after a dead battery. You might need a throttle position relearn. I've fixed enough mazda 3s and couple of civic si too. I think Hondas need a scanner. This will apply if your batter was replaced. Or if it lost TP memory. Though this might not help you might help others.

Sorry if someone already mentioned it.

Skirmich

I think after 2 Years, OP Got it solved XD