PiFive

Love my TL 99 but this is the second year I have this issue. Jerkiness feels like running on 4 cylinders. Last year it end up being bad gas now I have no idea what it could be.

I am getting CEL Light and TEC so I went and connected a computer and the error codes are as follows

P0301
P0302
P0303
P0304
P0305
P0306
P1399

This means all my cylinders are misfiring and multiple misfiring
Since I changed the spark plugs and coil terminals last year and I definitely I know my car and is not failing on all those cylinders. Now my next step is doing an EGR cleaning but in the mean time Does this sounds right? Car in low revs and idle has jerkiness but once I pass 3k revs it moves normal. CEL light starts flashing.

I hope anyone can give me a good advice on what to do here.. anyhow will report later after the EGR port cheaning.

00TL-P3.2

Is it only after you've been driving & the car has sat for 20-30 minutes?
Mine had the same 'hot start' issue, related to winter blend fuel.

Similar symptoms, felt like running on 2 cylinders until you could get it moving & revved up a bit, then it would smooth out & run fine.

01tl4tl

what brand spark plugs and coils did you install last year??
bosch plugs are garbage for our use
NGK $8 each are the correct plugs

definitely clean egr passage inside the intake manifold- 99 only has one port and clogs easily
3 cans carb cleaner and wire coat hanger to poke the whole passage out-
remove egr valve so it gets the 2 holes under it cleared- that th estart of the internal passage

Winter gas should not make it run that bad- just a little less mpg
try seafoam in the gas yet? 1 can to half tank- twice
on sale at oreillys now for 7.99 a can

01tl4tl

mulit cyl misfire codes are usually 1 coil- unplug power lead to one and ck for rpm drop
plug back in and try next one
the coil that doesnt have any rpm drop is the bad one

you know how to reset the ecu?- clear codes by removing the clock fuse for a minute

PiFive

Thanks for reply

As instructed by you last year I've got the NGKs

The car behaves like this as soon as I start it. Haven't done the egr cleaning yet.. Waiting for my buddy to arrive he has the tools once done ill give a report hopefully that will do it

PiFive

First problem I encounter

Chojun

Your engine is probably very dirty. Time to get some seafoam in there and clean your EGR.

01acls

You guys need to search for the "Heat soak" threads. There's a lot of possible culprits. One of them is a defective evap system.

PiFive

So I did the EGR Cleaning last night.

First, the EGR port hole was clean anyhow I sprayed lots of throttle cleaning liquid on it. Also the throttle tube was broken so in the mean time we duct tape that part while I get a replacement. In addition, while doing the EGR port cleaning I found out that I was missing the gasket from IAT sensor. I cleaned that area as well it wasnt that dirty. Now the main culprit we found was the cylinder 1 spark plug was black. We did the test with the car turned on each cylinder and definitely that spark plug is having an issue. So I guess I will buy another 6 pack of spark plugs NGK ZFR5F-11.

Now my question is .. I replaced all coils and spark plugs 1 year ago. Why I need to replace the spark plugs again? Or why the spark plug was black so quick? Is this car needs spark plug replacing every year? What could have caused this? Are bad quality coils can make this happen? and finally would be this a cause from a bigger issue in the engine?

Any input on this highly appreciated.

Chojun

This is a good resource:

Spark Plug Analysis

Prufessor_Oak

Could be that your valve need adjusting. I believe loose valves allow the piston to hit the spark plug harder.

comet24

I don't think you need to replace all the plugs. I would swap the one that's black.

Swap the coil pack from another cylinder to see if the coil pack is bad.

The black plug could be cause be a leaking ring on the piston in that cylinder. Could also be caused if that coil pack isn't firing right. One new plug and check the coil pack if it's bad replace it.

01acls

I second that... change the one plug and swap the one coil.

I would trust only OEM parts for something this important.

Platinum/iridium plugs will last 100,000 miles or more.

01tl4tl

NGK irid or platinum spark plugs should easily last 75kmiles,
1 bad plug is most likely failed coil
Even new parts can fail!

that broken inlet tube is a major factor in poor running
System must be sealed from the airbox to the engine, duct tape is temporary = not a fix!!

01tl4tl

did you poke a wire coat hanger thru the length of the egr passage inside the manifold?? removed the egr valve so the 2 holes under it were cleared- they are the start of the passage..its not just the 1 port at cylinder that requires cleaning

PiFive

I replaced one.

PiFive

Replaced coil and spark plug .. improved but still has jerkines

PiFive

Replaced the tube brand new. Still the problem continues and yes to reply to your other reply. We cleaned the intake manifold completely and poked the passage. But when testing the coils and spark plugs Cylinder 1 was the one with the issue but once replaced both coil and spark plug still on going. it improved a bit. It seems there is some mayor damage or something on that piston. I am gonna take it to Honda tomorrow. I could not solve the issue by myself.

Chojun

Do a compression test on that cylinder.

comet24

That would be my next step. You really need to test them all because the difference between any should be only so much. Sorry, I don't know the number off the top of my head.

Although test that one first. Often they are so bad you can see it instantly with a gauge.

PiFive

SO HONDA is asking 700 to open engine and check deep inside...seems there is a problem or broken valve. Then will also ask for more money if they find issues. This is turning into a nightmare.

Prufessor_Oak

At this point, if you don't have enough experience and don't want to take the engine apart, sell the car. If money is a problem, sell the car. Sell it.

PiFive

Pondering that ... But the car is so in good condition besides the engine. Plus I have placed good money on it already. Buying a car would be harder. Thinking hard hard... I love this car

Chojun

Well let's slow this down a sec. There's no reason to ditch the car right now until you've gone through some troubleshooting steps. I would definitely do a compression test and then go from there.

A valve problem could be a simple as some crud on the stem or wherever (especially if you had a dirty engine) that can be cleaned off with some engine cleaner.

Replacing a head gasket (or even a head) shouldn't be anywhere close to $700. You can replace the entire engine for that (not inc. labor).

Sticking or bad rings could be a labor-intensive fix. Let's just hope that your broken intake didn't cause something to get ingested and scratch up your cylinder.

But even if you did need to replace your engine, even ~$1700 is much less than whatever else you would get. Comparable value in my area for similar features on a car is in the $6000 range. I'd say whatever cost you need to put into it to fix the problem is worth it.

PiFive

Guy at Honda is checking the engine as we speak. As far as he told me it might be a lose valve. He still has to call me back once he find out for sure if that is the issue. I am paying now 600 for that labor (checking the engine) besides checking the engine if there is something broken on needs to be replaced will be in addition to the 600. I know 600 is expensive as hell but I had no other choice of what to do. Since my parents gonna give me a hand to fix the engine they told me to take it to HONDA a place I usually go there since my sister has also a HONDA vehicle and is with in 2 blocks from my house. I will report back once the mechanic gave me the final world on the engine.

Chojun

Sounds good, keep us in the loop because there are some VERY experienced people here.

Prufessor_Oak

100% guaranteed they will over charge you and you will be paying for parts that don't need replacing. But oh well.

Skirmich

JESUS 600 bucks?? You could have easily buy another engine for that money...

PiFive

Update on the repair.

Honda could not fix it or just didnt want to. They gave the car to a shop close by where they send some of their jobs.

So got my car on Saturday and It is now working flawless. The engine feels as better as new. Lots of power and crisp operation.

While asking what exactly they did. They dont elaborate exactly.

They did told me they had to readjust all the valves, tighten up everything inside and they drilled a bigger hole in the EGR intake.

No more CEL OR TCS light and car runs fantastic.

Anyhow for more that I wanted to do this by myself .. drilling the intake manifold was not gonna fly with me lol.

Wondering how often I have to clean that passage.

Thanks all for the input. CASE CLOSED 4 NOW.

comet24

Glad you got it fixed. Don't know why they can't elaborate on what they did.

What is tightening everything up inside?

Anyway glad to hear it's running good.

SuperGreg

I know OP got his car fixed, but just in case anybody was wondering, factory service manual says:

Compression

Check at 200 rpm with wide open throttle

Standard/new: 135 psi
Max variation: 28 psi

Chojun

Sounds like they just adjusted your valves and cleaned/ported your EGR. I've heard that the exhaust valves tend to get tight over time and that may have caused your engine stumbling.

Most veterans of this forum recommends 75K mile cleaning intervals of the EGR. But ultimately how often you do it depends on the octane you run. If less than 91 you'll have to do it frequently. If you have 93 octane available you may never have to do it.

The compression of our TLs is so high that the higher the octane, the better. A lot of people don't realize this. I wish Honda would print that on the gas gauges.

PiFive

Indeed. Ive got this car 3 years ago with 140k and the first thing I did was coming here to ask for advice and suggestions. Always use 91 and nothing lower. I dont see any 93 around my area.


Got the service manual but I had no way to measure it. I guess investing on the machine to gauge.

Thanks. I will stop by this week to talk to the mechanic and have a complete description of what they did. Still the car is behaving amazing. Very happy with the outcome.