how much nicer would a rwd tl be?
03-07-2008, 10:09 AM
#41
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by thisisnotdave
Noooooooooooo 
RWDs are much better a launched than FWD..
RWDs are much better a launched than FWD..Inherently every platform (rwd/fwd/awd) has its advantages/disadvantages over one another. Honda has fallen asleep at the wheel and it will take a fair bit to get them out of the direction they are going compared to the competition if they plan on competing with them. But we are kinda getting off topic.
03-07-2008, 10:22 AM
#42
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Haha yeah, either way theres up and downs. BUT i think that acura has performed a small miracle in making the TL handle the way it does stock. I mean really what other FWDs are there that are so responsive and still comfortable? Our main competition when are cars were new was es330 and I35, neither of them are even close I think, although the lex does feel like driving on a cloud.
If only Acura can get a transverse mounted V6 behind the front suspension like a g35 we'd all be alot happier FWD or not.
If only Acura can get a transverse mounted V6 behind the front suspension like a g35 we'd all be alot happier FWD or not.
03-07-2008, 10:28 AM
#43
Porkchop Sandwiches!
I know g35 is longitudinaly mounted im just saying putting all that weight behind the suspension does wonders for balance and handling.
03-07-2008, 10:51 AM
#44
Funny, we are having a snowstorm right now. I went out for about an hour and counted nine cars in the ditch. Five were RWD, one SUV, and one four wheel drive truck. The truck had just sped by me in his overconfident exhuberance.
Personally, for me, if the TL was RWD, I would never have purchased it. Not in Ohio, anyway. Acura has done an excellent job of making a FWD machine handle as well as most RWD machines in the same class. You should take a close look at the published numbers in Road & Track if you think otherwise. I'm sure the hardcore RWD advocates will claim otherwise, though.
The FWD is mainly a safer platform because it induces understeer, which will slow the majority of drivers, and thus be safer.
The TL IS a mainstream car. Not on the same level as a Camry, but it is not a niche. If you believe that the only reason Acura built the FWD was to make it cheaper, you should have bought something else.
The guys at MidOhio Raceway use Acura TSX's in their driving schools, and they readily outrun the BMW's, Mustangs, and just about any other RWD machine that students want to bring to the course, with very little modification.
Personally, for me, if the TL was RWD, I would never have purchased it. Not in Ohio, anyway. Acura has done an excellent job of making a FWD machine handle as well as most RWD machines in the same class. You should take a close look at the published numbers in Road & Track if you think otherwise. I'm sure the hardcore RWD advocates will claim otherwise, though.
The FWD is mainly a safer platform because it induces understeer, which will slow the majority of drivers, and thus be safer.
The TL IS a mainstream car. Not on the same level as a Camry, but it is not a niche. If you believe that the only reason Acura built the FWD was to make it cheaper, you should have bought something else.
The guys at MidOhio Raceway use Acura TSX's in their driving schools, and they readily outrun the BMW's, Mustangs, and just about any other RWD machine that students want to bring to the course, with very little modification.
03-07-2008, 10:57 AM
#45
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Originally Posted by thisisnotdave
Haha yeah, either way theres up and downs. BUT i think that acura has performed a small miracle in making the TL handle the way it does stock. I mean really what other FWDs are there that are so responsive and still comfortable? Our main competition when are cars were new was es330 and I35, neither of them are even close I think, although the lex does feel like driving on a cloud.
If only Acura can get a transverse mounted V6 behind the front suspension like a g35 we'd all be alot happier FWD or not.
If only Acura can get a transverse mounted V6 behind the front suspension like a g35 we'd all be alot happier FWD or not.
As for the es330 and I35, the I35 is dead. The TL doesn't really compete for the same buyers as the ES330 since their aims are so different. The TL more realistically competes with the IS350 since the aims of both car is to be sportier while offering some luxury. I'd say the closest (or only) FWD competitors in the TL's segment would be the volvo S60 and Audi 9-5. Again, the ES330 competes in size/price with this segment, but its the only one that doesn't aim to be sporty.
But to keep things on topic...a RWD TL would kick-ass.
03-07-2008, 11:04 AM
#46
Porkchop Sandwiches!
well i was comparing cars that were out when the 2g was still on sale. i35 may be gone but the newer maxima has been seriously upgraded to fill that gap. It costs as much as a new TL now.
Also I dunno if TL and is350 are really in the same class, the IS is alot smaller, more like a g35 sedan or a TSX. But RWD FTW! But more importantly 2nd gen TL's FTW x 100000000000!
Also I dunno if TL and is350 are really in the same class, the IS is alot smaller, more like a g35 sedan or a TSX. But RWD FTW! But more importantly 2nd gen TL's FTW x 100000000000!
03-07-2008, 11:12 AM
#47
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Originally Posted by S PAW 1
Funny, we are having a snowstorm right now. I went out for about an hour and counted nine cars in the ditch. Five were RWD, one SUV, and one four wheel drive truck. The truck had just sped by me in his overconfident exhuberance.
Personally, for me, if the TL was RWD, I would never have purchased it. Not in Ohio, anyway. Acura has done an excellent job of making a FWD machine handle as well as most RWD machines in the same class. You should take a close look at the published numbers in Road & Track if you think otherwise. I'm sure the hardcore RWD advocates will claim otherwise, though.
The FWD is mainly a safer platform because it induces understeer, which will slow the majority of drivers, and thus be safer.
The TL IS a mainstream car. Not on the same level as a Camry, but it is not a niche. If you believe that the only reason Acura built the FWD was to make it cheaper, you should have bought something else.
Personally, for me, if the TL was RWD, I would never have purchased it. Not in Ohio, anyway. Acura has done an excellent job of making a FWD machine handle as well as most RWD machines in the same class. You should take a close look at the published numbers in Road & Track if you think otherwise. I'm sure the hardcore RWD advocates will claim otherwise, though.
The FWD is mainly a safer platform because it induces understeer, which will slow the majority of drivers, and thus be safer.
The TL IS a mainstream car. Not on the same level as a Camry, but it is not a niche. If you believe that the only reason Acura built the FWD was to make it cheaper, you should have bought something else.
And yes, I do believe Acura built the TL as FWD was to make it cheaper, and yes, that's why I DID buy something else.
The guys at MidOhio Raceway use Acura TSX's in their driving schools, and they readily outrun the BMW's, Mustangs, and just about any other RWD machine that students want to bring to the course, with very little modification.
I mean, look at the trends on these forums and every other forum, every car magazine, every consumer magazine, etc. etc. How many complaints are there that a car is FWD (and the finger is usually pointed at Acura)? Now how many complaints are there that a car is RWD? Get the picture?
specifically n the near luxury segment, besides cost there are very few advantages with FWD, but there are many limitations. In the same segment, there are many advantages with RWD, and if AWD is availble, no limitations. If any automaker is smart, why would they choose a LIMITED platform layout to develop cars, then have to apply "band-aids" to make it perform as well?
03-07-2008, 11:18 AM
#48
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Originally Posted by thisisnotdave
well i was comparing cars that were out when the 2g was still on sale. i35 may be gone but the newer maxima has been seriously upgraded to fill that gap. It costs as much as a new TL now.
Also I dunno if TL and is350 are really in the same class, the IS is alot smaller, more like a g35 sedan or a TSX. But RWD FTW! But more importantly 2nd gen TL's FTW x 100000000000!
Also I dunno if TL and is350 are really in the same class, the IS is alot smaller, more like a g35 sedan or a TSX. But RWD FTW! But more importantly 2nd gen TL's FTW x 100000000000!
Compare the TL to RL...the RL has more HP, more torque, but is MUCH slower not only due to some better equipment, but also the AWD system which not only adds weight, but saps power. Acura pushed themselves into this corner, and they will pay for it. The TL's strong point was always value by offering decent performance, equipment, and reliability at a decent price. Considering a lower HP FWD TL-S costs more than a higher HP RWD G35, the next gen TL w/ AWD will definitely lose ANY value advantage it had.
03-07-2008, 11:28 AM
#49
Porkchop Sandwiches!
The price difference between the Gcoupe and TL-s are basically the same price. Its like a vanilla g-coupe is 34+ and loaded TL-S is about 36, once you add a few features you're looking at the same money.
Also, i agree that if the TL ever went AWD acura would have to step up the power. Im thinking maybe a mild hybrid like the dualnote concept. Or they could go with a Turbo Diesel like Ford and others.
I would love to see honda come out with something completely new for a RWD, like an IS or even something compete with a GS.
Honda makes you think tho with oil being $104 a barrel right now, 1.5 liter Fit is starting to look pretty appetizing. They should make THAT RWD!
Also, i agree that if the TL ever went AWD acura would have to step up the power. Im thinking maybe a mild hybrid like the dualnote concept. Or they could go with a Turbo Diesel like Ford and others.
I would love to see honda come out with something completely new for a RWD, like an IS or even something compete with a GS.
Honda makes you think tho with oil being $104 a barrel right now, 1.5 liter Fit is starting to look pretty appetizing. They should make THAT RWD!
03-07-2008, 11:37 AM
#50
I guess ferrari needs to take a lesson from Acura and build FWD cars now[quote].
Yep, a real good comparison
Most of the car magazines do their testing in warm weather climates.
You sound like you are going to say whatever you feel you need to say to make your point.
Why don't you just enjoy your RWD and leave your bias's somewhere else? Some of your points make no sense to anyone but you.
I, for one, will enjoy my TL just the way it is without having to feel that it isn't perfect.
Yep, a real good comparison
Most of the car magazines do their testing in warm weather climates.
You sound like you are going to say whatever you feel you need to say to make your point.
Why don't you just enjoy your RWD and leave your bias's somewhere else? Some of your points make no sense to anyone but you.
I, for one, will enjoy my TL just the way it is without having to feel that it isn't perfect.
03-07-2008, 11:48 AM
#51
FPR pimpin'
when i was talking about stability, i mean accelerating in the snow....
I;m not gonna get into G35 vs TL vs IS discussions... too many of these already going on
anyways i dont really care for a RWD TL, i like having a FWD boat sedan that can toast some RWD contenders
The RWD i get will be something more exotic... like an NSX
I;m not gonna get into G35 vs TL vs IS discussions... too many of these already going on
anyways i dont really care for a RWD TL, i like having a FWD boat sedan that can toast some RWD contenders
The RWD i get will be something more exotic... like an NSX
03-07-2008, 01:01 PM
#53
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Yep, a real good comparison
Most of the car magazines do their testing in warm weather climates.
You sound like you are going to say whatever you feel you need to say to make your point.
Why don't you just enjoy your RWD and leave your bias's somewhere else? Some of your points make no sense to anyone but you.
And your misunderstanding of my ferarri comment further convinces me that you are a little dense. Ferarri designs performance cars, and your example of FWD TSX's "outperforming" RWD cars is to make an example of how good FWD is compared to RWD, which means that if Ferarri wants to "outperform" the competition, they should switch to FWD based on YOUR logic.
And lastly, your asking me to leave my RWD bias somewhere else (ie not discuss it), in a thread titled how much nicer would a rwd tl be?
. Nice, you must be a real genius!
03-07-2008, 03:41 PM
#55
6G TLX-S
Originally Posted by WillrunifChased
Somebody should just chop up a TL and drop an LS1 in it and call it a day.
03-07-2008, 03:54 PM
#56
Porkchop Sandwiches!
Originally Posted by WillrunifChased
Somebody should just chop up a TL and drop an LS1 in it and call it a day.
03-07-2008, 03:55 PM
#57
6G TLX-S
Originally Posted by mrdeeno
If you haven't been reading the posts, it is more likely that YOU are the only one that can't make sense of my posts. My posts CLEARLY point out the advantages and disadvantages of RWD and FWD including technical/real factors as well as market factors and limitations of FWD platforms and reasons why Honda chose to stay with FWD rather than develop a RWD platform (cost). I am biased towards RWD, but that is because i have owned both FWD and RWD vehicles and have driven both with all seasons, summer, and snow tires in up to 5" of snow.
And your misunderstanding of my ferarri comment further convinces me that you are a little dense. Ferarri designs performance cars, and your example of FWD TSX's "outperforming" RWD cars is to make an example of how good FWD is compared to RWD, which means that if Ferarri wants to "outperform" the competition, they should switch to FWD based on YOUR logic.
And lastly, your asking me to leave my RWD bias somewhere else (ie not discuss it), in a thread titled how much nicer would a rwd tl be?
. Nice, you must be a real genius!
And your misunderstanding of my ferarri comment further convinces me that you are a little dense. Ferarri designs performance cars, and your example of FWD TSX's "outperforming" RWD cars is to make an example of how good FWD is compared to RWD, which means that if Ferarri wants to "outperform" the competition, they should switch to FWD based on YOUR logic.
And lastly, your asking me to leave my RWD bias somewhere else (ie not discuss it), in a thread titled how much nicer would a rwd tl be?
. Nice, you must be a real genius!
The FWD TSX handles so well because it only has 200hp and torque output for a lame 4-cylinder motor. Once you go pass 300+hp, a FWD car will handle like shit. That's why true sport cars are always RWD or AWD; and Honda also silently acknowledges this fact by releasing the sportiest cars in its lineups - the S2000 and the NSX as RWD cars, not FWD's.
03-07-2008, 04:16 PM
#58
Originally Posted by mrdeeno
And lastly, your asking me to leave my RWD bias somewhere else (ie not discuss it), in a thread titled [I
And lastly, your asking me to leave my RWD bias somewhere else (ie not discuss it), in a thread titled [I
how much nicer would a rwd tl be?
[/i]. Nice, you must be a real genius!
[/i]. Nice, you must be a real genius!
I'm sure you think so.
If you think the TL is a "nicer" car as RWD, hold your breath. Then we won't have to hear from you.
You can be the genius
03-08-2008, 07:42 AM
#59
Honestly i always wanted to do a rear-wheel drive conversion, first it would have been on my 1994accord with TYPE-R suspension, but then imagine how sick a TL would look, flying down with its backside out (drifting), with some sick OFFSETs!!!!!!!
03-08-2008, 08:03 AM
#60
Originally Posted by JDM Inspired
Honestly i always wanted to do a rear-wheel drive conversion, first it would have been on my 1994accord with TYPE-R suspension, but then imagine how sick a TL would look, flying down with its backside out (drifting), with some sick OFFSETs!!!!!!!
You can do it with FWD
Just yesterday I was drifting using the e-brake in the snow
03-08-2008, 09:14 AM
#61
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by thisisnotdave
Its also impossible cuz the LS1 block is freaking huge and longitudinally mounted. What I did see what blew my mind was an LS1 in a r34 skyline. Although kinda pointless given the amount of power you can squeeze out of the stock engine, it was still pretty cool.
And why is it pointless? The LS1 could crank out more HP and TQ than the r34 motor.
03-09-2008, 03:12 PM
#62
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Originally Posted by S PAW 1
And comparing a TSX to a Ferarri is a stroke of genius?
I'm sure you think so.
If you think the TL is a "nicer" car as RWD, hold your breath. Then we won't have to hear from you.
You can be the genius
I'm sure you think so.
If you think the TL is a "nicer" car as RWD, hold your breath. Then we won't have to hear from you.
You can be the genius
You have demonstrated even further how dense you are. WOW!
1) Even after EXPLAINING to you why ferrari was brought up, you still do not comprehend why it was brought up.
2) Even after I already pointed out that the thread title is how much nicer would a rwd tl be?, you still think that people who are of the opinion that a RWD tl would be nicer AND OFFER SOUND REASONS shouldn't participate and "hold our breath".
All I have to say is "wow!"
03-09-2008, 03:56 PM
#63
Porkchop Sandwiches!
Originally Posted by fsttyms1
Id bet all sorts of money one could get it to fit. Ive seen a Northstar V8 in a VW Golf. The northstar is a larger engine and the golf is a much smaller car.
And why is it pointless? The LS1 could crank out more HP and TQ than the r34 motor.
And why is it pointless? The LS1 could crank out more HP and TQ than the r34 motor.
About that golf, was it transverse mount? I dont think you can get good results from taking a FWD platform and trying to adapt it for RWD applications.
03-09-2008, 04:39 PM
#64
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The car being a RWD would end up being irrelevant. Because the tires don't spin that badly and if you put proper summer tires on, you're set. That's really the only thing about this car, since there's only roughly 230hp (260hp type S), it's enough power that the FWD system can handle it without any actual heavy torque steer to it.
The 260hp Type S, also knocked out the then 330i and 330xi, which says quite a bit.
Would it be better as RWD? Like i said, irrelevant, since the FWD can handle it just fine, but i was thinking more or less, i think this car would only benefit from a SHAWD system, since there isn't enough power to actually show that an RWD would be better.
Chances are, it'd be the same, sure the RWD might have a bit of an edge, but i really don't think it'd be enough.
I am not saying FWD is better than RWD or anything of the sort, i'm just saying that in the case with a mere 260 horsepower range for a car this size, there would be truly no difference.
If this car had a stability system as good as Lexus', maybe the RWD would have been very beneficial, but right now, forget it.
Although for sure, the 3rd Gen TL also does well with a FWD system, but now the 4th must have the Shawd or RWD....Honda knows that they're 4th gen cannot be handled by a FWD system, especially with keeping up with the competition.
The 260hp Type S, also knocked out the then 330i and 330xi, which says quite a bit.
Would it be better as RWD? Like i said, irrelevant, since the FWD can handle it just fine, but i was thinking more or less, i think this car would only benefit from a SHAWD system, since there isn't enough power to actually show that an RWD would be better.
Chances are, it'd be the same, sure the RWD might have a bit of an edge, but i really don't think it'd be enough.
I am not saying FWD is better than RWD or anything of the sort, i'm just saying that in the case with a mere 260 horsepower range for a car this size, there would be truly no difference.
If this car had a stability system as good as Lexus', maybe the RWD would have been very beneficial, but right now, forget it.
Although for sure, the 3rd Gen TL also does well with a FWD system, but now the 4th must have the Shawd or RWD....Honda knows that they're 4th gen cannot be handled by a FWD system, especially with keeping up with the competition.
03-09-2008, 04:54 PM
#65
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Originally Posted by Brown Chaos
Would it be better as RWD? Like i said, irrelevant, since the FWD can handle it just fine, but i was thinking more or less, i think this car would only benefit from a SHAWD system, since there isn't enough power to actually show that an RWD would be better.
03-09-2008, 08:04 PM
#67
I'm Down Right Fierce!
We all knew that when we got a TL that it was FWD. If we had all wanted RWD back then, we would've forked over the extra 5-8k and gotten it from BMW or Infiniti. The simple truth for many TL owners is that at the time we purchased it, we got a hell of a deal for what we paid for.
Its too late to gripe about FWD or RWD and to wish the TL was RWD.
And I highly doubt Acura will ever offer a RWD TL as it seems that they're going the SH AWD route. And even then, I'm willing to bet the SH AWD will send 80% of the power to the front wheels and 20% to the back, so in essence you'll have a heavier car with AWD that'll still tend to understeer in the corners. It'll probably be faster off the line though, but i'm certain that even more horsepower will be lost throughout the AWD drive train.
IMO, true sports cars and sports sedans are RWD. Think G35s and BMWs.
Acura offers "sporty" sedans, not the same thing as sports sedans.
Its too late to gripe about FWD or RWD and to wish the TL was RWD.
And I highly doubt Acura will ever offer a RWD TL as it seems that they're going the SH AWD route. And even then, I'm willing to bet the SH AWD will send 80% of the power to the front wheels and 20% to the back, so in essence you'll have a heavier car with AWD that'll still tend to understeer in the corners. It'll probably be faster off the line though, but i'm certain that even more horsepower will be lost throughout the AWD drive train.
IMO, true sports cars and sports sedans are RWD. Think G35s and BMWs.
Acura offers "sporty" sedans, not the same thing as sports sedans.
03-09-2008, 08:44 PM
#68
Porkchop Sandwiches!
Originally Posted by Brown Chaos
The car being a RWD would end up being irrelevant. Because the tires don't spin that badly and if you put proper summer tires on, you're set. That's really the only thing about this car, since there's only roughly 230hp (260hp type S), it's enough power that the FWD system can handle it without any actual heavy torque steer to it.
The 260hp Type S, also knocked out the then 330i and 330xi, which says quite a bit.
Would it be better as RWD? Like i said, irrelevant, since the FWD can handle it just fine, but i was thinking more or less, i think this car would only benefit from a SHAWD system, since there isn't enough power to actually show that an RWD would be better.
Chances are, it'd be the same, sure the RWD might have a bit of an edge, but i really don't think it'd be enough.
I am not saying FWD is better than RWD or anything of the sort, i'm just saying that in the case with a mere 260 horsepower range for a car this size, there would be truly no difference.
If this car had a stability system as good as Lexus', maybe the RWD would have been very beneficial, but right now, forget it.
Although for sure, the 3rd Gen TL also does well with a FWD system, but now the 4th must have the Shawd or RWD....Honda knows that they're 4th gen cannot be handled by a FWD system, especially with keeping up with the competition.
The 260hp Type S, also knocked out the then 330i and 330xi, which says quite a bit.
Would it be better as RWD? Like i said, irrelevant, since the FWD can handle it just fine, but i was thinking more or less, i think this car would only benefit from a SHAWD system, since there isn't enough power to actually show that an RWD would be better.
Chances are, it'd be the same, sure the RWD might have a bit of an edge, but i really don't think it'd be enough.
I am not saying FWD is better than RWD or anything of the sort, i'm just saying that in the case with a mere 260 horsepower range for a car this size, there would be truly no difference.
If this car had a stability system as good as Lexus', maybe the RWD would have been very beneficial, but right now, forget it.
Although for sure, the 3rd Gen TL also does well with a FWD system, but now the 4th must have the Shawd or RWD....Honda knows that they're 4th gen cannot be handled by a FWD system, especially with keeping up with the competition.
Also TL-s is almost a 1 second slower in a 0-60 than a 330i despite the latter having about the same amount of power as a TL-P. They weigh the same +/- 100 lbs. Granted BMW motors have a fatter torque curve than our V-Tech screamers, but the point still stands; a lot less power and a lot faster 0-60, im sure RWD has a good something to do with it.
On top of that VSA/VSC/TCS whatever you want to call it is a band-aid for driving in poor conditions or bad driving in general. When VSA kicks in it means you drove the car past its limits and it has to SLOW DOWN to get back into control. Therefore no matter how good your traction control is its not gonna be as good as skilled driving.
And yes I'll agree that RWD benefits high power cars more, but the proof is in the numbers, even out dinky little 260hp motors will benefit from having RWD.
03-09-2008, 09:23 PM
#69
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Originally Posted by thisisnotdave
Ok, you obviously haven't read anything in the thread posted before you. RWD is superior to FWD in everything except winter driving. If you want to know why please read the 1st two pages.
Also TL-s is almost a 1 second slower in a 0-60 than a 330i despite the latter having about the same amount of power as a TL-P. They weigh the same +/- 100 lbs. Granted BMW motors have a fatter torque curve than our V-Tech screamers, but the point still stands; a lot less power and a lot faster 0-60, im sure RWD has a good something to do with it.
On top of that VSA/VSC/TCS whatever you want to call it is a band-aid for driving in poor conditions or bad driving in general. When VSA kicks in it means you drove the car past its limits and it has to SLOW DOWN to get back into control. Therefore no matter how good your traction control is its not gonna be as good as skilled driving.
And yes I'll agree that RWD benefits high power cars more, but the proof is in the numbers, even out dinky little 260hp motors will benefit from having RWD.
Also TL-s is almost a 1 second slower in a 0-60 than a 330i despite the latter having about the same amount of power as a TL-P. They weigh the same +/- 100 lbs. Granted BMW motors have a fatter torque curve than our V-Tech screamers, but the point still stands; a lot less power and a lot faster 0-60, im sure RWD has a good something to do with it.
On top of that VSA/VSC/TCS whatever you want to call it is a band-aid for driving in poor conditions or bad driving in general. When VSA kicks in it means you drove the car past its limits and it has to SLOW DOWN to get back into control. Therefore no matter how good your traction control is its not gonna be as good as skilled driving.
And yes I'll agree that RWD benefits high power cars more, but the proof is in the numbers, even out dinky little 260hp motors will benefit from having RWD.
03-09-2008, 10:29 PM
#70
Originally Posted by thisisnotdave
Its also impossible cuz the LS1 block is freaking huge and longitudinally mounted. What I did see what blew my mind was an LS1 in a r34 skyline. Although kinda pointless given the amount of power you can squeeze out of the stock engine, it was still pretty cool.
If its possible in a civic, it has to be possible in a TL...but oh well, still looks like alot of wasted money to me
03-10-2008, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Brown Chaos
The car being a RWD would end up being irrelevant. Because the tires don't spin that badly and if you put proper summer tires on, you're set. That's really the only thing about this car, since there's only roughly 230hp (260hp type S), it's enough power that the FWD system can handle it without any actual heavy torque steer to it.
If FWD or RWD is "irrelevant" in a car with 260hp, then why is the S2000 RWD? It has "only" 240hp and much less torque too. The answer is because how much power FWD or RWD can handle is only one of the advantages or disadvantages among a list of items. From a performance viewpoint (taking into consideration handling, weight, weight distribution, power handling, steering feel), RWD >> FWD or AWD. Honda knows this, which is why the S2000 and NSX are RWD cars.
On the TL, the amount of power the front wheels can handle vs. a RWD car may be "irrelevant", but it is not irrelevant when it comes to dynamics and weight distribution or steering feel. That is why Honda has to "bandage" the car with suspension tunings to mitigate torque steer and understeer. Further, adding aftermarket sways is another "bandage" to improve handling so there is less sway, making the car handle more like it's "on rails". On a FWD car, handling "on rails" is what is hoped for for better handling, unlike a RWD car which doesn't have to handle "on rails" to handle the same or even exceed the handling of the FWD car.
My CL-S had the comptech sways and handled well with summer tires like it was "on rails". It seemed to raise the understeer limit from the stock setup, but nevertheless when that limit is reached you still have to let up on the gas. My stock M45 sport, even with 17" snow rims/tires, weighs more than the CL-S, has more body lean, yet outhandles the CL-S and feels better while doing it. There is understeer, but the difference is that I can lay on the gas more and the understeer actually decreases until I start oversteering and the stability system kicks in.
03-10-2008, 10:58 AM
#72
[quote}mrdeeno:
My stock M45 sport, even with 17" snow rims/tires, weighs more than the CL-S, has more body lean, yet outhandles the CL-S and feels better while doing it.
Is you statement based upon "feel" or fact? The following article doesn't support any factual superior handling. In fact, the M45 had "active steer", yet didn't provide anything outstanding in the area of handling.
Car & Driver (06/05):
Our blasts through Death Valley confirm this, the Infiniti cornering confidently without ever losing ground to the BMW. It still lacks the 545i's trademark handling crispness and communicative steering feel, but it's by no means far behind. Around the skidpad, the M45's rear active steer helped it achieve the highest (0.91g) rating, but then it faltered in the slalom (63.6 mph), scoring the lowest of our three cars. Oddly, the M45 Sport in our February 2005 road test negotiated the same slalom with the same driver at 65.4 mph. In the real world, however, the Infiniti feels every bit as quick as the BMW and nearly as smooth as the Lexus.
Since I coudn't find any direct comparison between the CL-P/TL-S and M45, a comparable reference point would be the 02/07 R&T, which had the '07 TL-S coming in at .91g and 66.0mph in the slalom.
It may not be an exact comparison, but then again, neither is comparing RWD to an active steer RWD. The RL's system may make you "feel" as if you might outhandle a TL-S, but it won't on it's best day.
As an add, the G35 far outhandles the M45, but still can't match the TL-S's numbers.
My stock M45 sport, even with 17" snow rims/tires, weighs more than the CL-S, has more body lean, yet outhandles the CL-S and feels better while doing it.
Is you statement based upon "feel" or fact? The following article doesn't support any factual superior handling. In fact, the M45 had "active steer", yet didn't provide anything outstanding in the area of handling.
Car & Driver (06/05):
Our blasts through Death Valley confirm this, the Infiniti cornering confidently without ever losing ground to the BMW. It still lacks the 545i's trademark handling crispness and communicative steering feel, but it's by no means far behind. Around the skidpad, the M45's rear active steer helped it achieve the highest (0.91g) rating, but then it faltered in the slalom (63.6 mph), scoring the lowest of our three cars. Oddly, the M45 Sport in our February 2005 road test negotiated the same slalom with the same driver at 65.4 mph. In the real world, however, the Infiniti feels every bit as quick as the BMW and nearly as smooth as the Lexus.
Since I coudn't find any direct comparison between the CL-P/TL-S and M45, a comparable reference point would be the 02/07 R&T, which had the '07 TL-S coming in at .91g and 66.0mph in the slalom.
It may not be an exact comparison, but then again, neither is comparing RWD to an active steer RWD. The RL's system may make you "feel" as if you might outhandle a TL-S, but it won't on it's best day.
As an add, the G35 far outhandles the M45, but still can't match the TL-S's numbers.
03-10-2008, 11:11 AM
#73
Most people that think FWD is superior have never driven a decent RWD car. When driving under normal conditions and in local driving, there is virtually NO difference between a RWD and FWD car.
FWD cars are great until you hit the 250+ HP barrier.
The true difference in driving a FWD and RWD car is just taking it out on the highway at 70 mph and try to do a fast lane change if a car cuts in front of you. RWD tends to be more stable at higher speeds. Also try driving a FWD with full throttle on a wet roads. You're more likely to start spinning out.
I've mentioned numerous times, the 3g TL is the best FWD car out there. But it's impossible to compare it to a RWD, such as the G35, C-Class, and the 3 series in handling. It's just a different league.
The 3G TL will be the last FWD car Acura makes. I feel that if Acura makes a RWD TL with at least 300 hp, it will steal a lot of sales from Infiniti.
FWD cars are great until you hit the 250+ HP barrier.
The true difference in driving a FWD and RWD car is just taking it out on the highway at 70 mph and try to do a fast lane change if a car cuts in front of you. RWD tends to be more stable at higher speeds. Also try driving a FWD with full throttle on a wet roads. You're more likely to start spinning out.
I've mentioned numerous times, the 3g TL is the best FWD car out there. But it's impossible to compare it to a RWD, such as the G35, C-Class, and the 3 series in handling. It's just a different league.
The 3G TL will be the last FWD car Acura makes. I feel that if Acura makes a RWD TL with at least 300 hp, it will steal a lot of sales from Infiniti.
03-10-2008, 11:17 AM
#74
Coming from a 330i, I personally expected the TL-S to be faster. My 330i only had 225 hp and the TL-S has around 285 (something like that). Even when I floor the TL on the highway, the power is there but it's not as refined or smooth as a bmw.
03-10-2008, 11:35 AM
#75
Suzuka Master
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Originally Posted by S PAW 1
[quote}mrdeeno:
My stock M45 sport, even with 17" snow rims/tires, weighs more than the CL-S, has more body lean, yet outhandles the CL-S and feels better while doing it.
Is you statement based upon "feel" or fact? The following article doesn't support any factual superior handling. In fact, the M45 had "active steer", yet didn't provide anything outstanding in the area of handling.
Car & Driver (06/05):
Our blasts through Death Valley confirm this, the Infiniti cornering confidently without ever losing ground to the BMW. It still lacks the 545i's trademark handling crispness and communicative steering feel, but it's by no means far behind. Around the skidpad, the M45's rear active steer helped it achieve the highest (0.91g) rating, but then it faltered in the slalom (63.6 mph), scoring the lowest of our three cars. Oddly, the M45 Sport in our February 2005 road test negotiated the same slalom with the same driver at 65.4 mph. In the real world, however, the Infiniti feels every bit as quick as the BMW and nearly as smooth as the Lexus.
Since I coudn't find any direct comparison between the CL-P/TL-S and M45, a comparable reference point would be the 02/07 R&T, which had the '07 TL-S coming in at .91g and 66.0mph in the slalom.
It may not be an exact comparison, but then again, neither is comparing RWD to an active steer RWD. The RL's system may make you "feel" as if you might outhandle a TL-S, but it won't on it's best day.
As an add, the G35 far outhandles the M45, but still can't match the TL-S's numbers.
My stock M45 sport, even with 17" snow rims/tires, weighs more than the CL-S, has more body lean, yet outhandles the CL-S and feels better while doing it.
Is you statement based upon "feel" or fact? The following article doesn't support any factual superior handling. In fact, the M45 had "active steer", yet didn't provide anything outstanding in the area of handling.
Car & Driver (06/05):
Our blasts through Death Valley confirm this, the Infiniti cornering confidently without ever losing ground to the BMW. It still lacks the 545i's trademark handling crispness and communicative steering feel, but it's by no means far behind. Around the skidpad, the M45's rear active steer helped it achieve the highest (0.91g) rating, but then it faltered in the slalom (63.6 mph), scoring the lowest of our three cars. Oddly, the M45 Sport in our February 2005 road test negotiated the same slalom with the same driver at 65.4 mph. In the real world, however, the Infiniti feels every bit as quick as the BMW and nearly as smooth as the Lexus.
Since I coudn't find any direct comparison between the CL-P/TL-S and M45, a comparable reference point would be the 02/07 R&T, which had the '07 TL-S coming in at .91g and 66.0mph in the slalom.
It may not be an exact comparison, but then again, neither is comparing RWD to an active steer RWD. The RL's system may make you "feel" as if you might outhandle a TL-S, but it won't on it's best day.
As an add, the G35 far outhandles the M45, but still can't match the TL-S's numbers.
Yes, my car DOES outhandle the CL-S with sways, based on the roads I drive, the speed to which I can push the car, and how the car "feels". Skidpad and lane change numbers and other handling measurements are useful, but are not the end all of handling, otherwise why would we have motorsports and tracks for people to actually drive and test their cars on?
Does the M45 sport outhandle the current TL-S? Based on feel, I don't know since I only test drove a base TL a long time ago. Based on numbers? Maybe, but there is no direct comparison that can say for sure. But whether one can outhandle the other or not, I'm sure I know which one feels dynamically better.
03-10-2008, 12:00 PM
#76
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by thisisnotdave
For the amount of money and time it would cost for the LS1 transplant you can get the rb26 motor to at least 500 hp. Stock for stock and LS1 is more powerful but the engine in the skyline is boosted and built to handle much more power.
About that golf, was it transverse mount? I dont think you can get good results from taking a FWD platform and trying to adapt it for RWD applications.
About that golf, was it transverse mount? I dont think you can get good results from taking a FWD platform and trying to adapt it for RWD applications.
That swap in the golf was transverse. All in all the car weighed a little over 100 lbs more than stock after the swap (according to the article)
And why would you say your last comments?? Why couldnt you?
03-10-2008, 12:05 PM
#77
Senior Moderator
Im about to close this as its become a Stupid debate on which is better and should belong in cartalk
03-10-2008, 12:20 PM
#78
[QUOTE=DrMooCow]Most people that think FWD is superior have never driven a decent RWD car. When driving under normal conditions and in local driving, there is virtually NO difference between a RWD and FWD car.
FWD cars are great until you hit the 250+ HP barrier.
This may be one of the most factual statements on this thread, but allow me to take it one step further.
I attended the Acura High Performance Driving School at MidOhio Raceway this past summer. I drove an Acura TSX most of the time, but we also had the opportunity to drive an S2000. Considering that the S2000 had 20-30hp advantage, it could not run away from the TSX's, yet the FEEL was totally different when I drove it. One guy even had a 600hp Saleen, which could not run away from the TSX's either. Our best top speeds on the track was about 110mph.
The results were the same when the professional instructors drove them. What difference there was, was extremely minimal.
The TSX was just as much fun to drive as the S2000, althought the instructor had a markedly bigger smile when exploring the S2000's limits The reason for that was because the S was more of a challenge to control. But in the end, the difference was small.
My point is this, RWD begins to shine well beyond the 250hp mark as long as they have the suspensions to match. We're talking NASCAR, Indycar, IMSA, F1, etc.
In the real world, we don't live there.
That's why [QUOTE:The 3G TL will be the last FWD car Acura makes.]/QUOTE] this is probably not going to happen. You may see AWD add, but not FWD eliminated entirely.
FWD cars are great until you hit the 250+ HP barrier.
This may be one of the most factual statements on this thread, but allow me to take it one step further.
I attended the Acura High Performance Driving School at MidOhio Raceway this past summer. I drove an Acura TSX most of the time, but we also had the opportunity to drive an S2000. Considering that the S2000 had 20-30hp advantage, it could not run away from the TSX's, yet the FEEL was totally different when I drove it. One guy even had a 600hp Saleen, which could not run away from the TSX's either. Our best top speeds on the track was about 110mph.
The results were the same when the professional instructors drove them. What difference there was, was extremely minimal.
The TSX was just as much fun to drive as the S2000, althought the instructor had a markedly bigger smile when exploring the S2000's limits
The reason for that was because the S was more of a challenge to control. But in the end, the difference was small.My point is this, RWD begins to shine well beyond the 250hp mark as long as they have the suspensions to match. We're talking NASCAR, Indycar, IMSA, F1, etc.
In the real world, we don't live there.
That's why [QUOTE:The 3G TL will be the last FWD car Acura makes.]/QUOTE] this is probably not going to happen. You may see AWD add, but not FWD eliminated entirely.
03-10-2008, 12:28 PM
#79
Originally Posted by S PAW 1
FWD cars are great until you hit the 250+ HP barrier.
03-10-2008, 02:44 PM
#80
6G TLX-S
Originally Posted by BraveDemon
Its too late to gripe about FWD or RWD and to wish the TL was RWD.