Guest

I think it's all really a matter of perception, entry level luxury vs. luxury. Yes, for Lexus as far as luxury (not sport) the ES300 is it's lowest priced vehicle, but $38k is not considered cheap by any means, and to be fair Lexus isn't nickle and diming on ammenities either. If you fully price out a TLS (I mean all the little stuff too) you're looking at about $37K, still below the ES, but aesthetics aside, there's a considerable difference in quality. Performancewise, it's not even close, but again, Lexus wasn't aiming for the TLS, otherwise they'd have either bumped up HP or came out with an ES300S. I can understand when people take offense at the TL/TLS "entry level luxury" moniker especially when it comes from a Lexus owner, but as it's been discussed here before, I don't think Acura knows what it wants to be. Lexus got rid of the ES250, for one reason only, not lagging sales, but to enhance it's image as a luxury line. I'd love Acura to do that, eliminate the RSX, give it to Honda, and start the line at $35K+. This isn't a class war, they're both great companies, Acura is just trying to find it's identity.

Mr Hyde

Regardless of what people think, the ES300 is considered an entry level luxury car by all automotive authorities just like the TL, I30, 3 series BMW, Caddy Catera, Volvo S60, Mercedes C Class, Jag X type; the list goes on. Its not just a moniker, but an actual class. Those are some of the cars in that class and thats the competition. Someones personal opinion as to how much better the quality may be doesnt change that, and SickLex's initial post stated the jump in class as if it were fact when it is not. My opinions as to looks are just that opinions and they were never conveyed as more than just opinion. Looks are a Subjective thing, but as far as categorizing THESE cars as luxury vs entrylevel luxury goes thats pretty objective. Moving up to the luxury class requires an LS, RL, Q45, 5 series, E class, etc.

Amenities wise, what are the factory installed options on a TL-S?? Navigation and what else? Everything else is standard, there are no packages, or other factory installed options. What little stuff are you talking about that is not present for every single manufacturer and bumps up their prices just the same like dealer installed options such as the body kit, gold kits, mudguards, pinstriping, etc??

As far as enhancing the luxury line goes, and how Acura is trying to find its identity as opposed to Lexus, how exactly does the IS fit into the picture then? I think you've forgotten about it, it is now Lexus' lowest priced vehicle, and does not portray Lexus' image as a Luxury car only line does it? Certainly doesnt in my opinion from my stints behind the wheel of one. Where Acura is simply continuing the position now held by the RSX which was created several years ago, Lexus has now created a car (for the US market anyway) and created the same spot. Why dump the RSX when Other manufacturers are following suit with the IS300, Mercedes' C Hatch, and others which are in the works.

The comparos between TL-S and IS300 are all fine and well, but I consider the TL and ES300 in the same class and most automotive authorities would agree. Comparisons to an IS300 would probably now be handled by the RSX Type-S.

Guest

I have to disagree about the comparisons. Most are based on type (entry, mid, lux) and ammenities, but more importantly price range, hence a Subaru WRX, although faster than most cars, is not marketed to the Porsche buyer because their 0-60 times are close. You can get a RSX w/out options for $20K, name one Lexus you can, the IS300 ? They start at $31K stripped. Believe me, I don't think the whole BMW and Mercedes slant towards focusing on their 3 and C series expansion is a great idea, as is the Jaguar X-type, I think it tarnishes their image, and unfortunately Lexus is following suit just to capture the same market. I just feel that entry into the "clubhouse" should have some exclusivity, and if that means cutting out the sub-$25K car, in order to raise the bar so be it. Anyone will say if given the choice, which would you want: Honda or Acura, we both know the answer. Why ? Acura is considered Honda's luxury division, and if I know that (assuming one likes the style of both) I could get in an RSX for $3K less than an Accord V6, you bet I'd take the Acura. To me, your luxury division (Acura) shouldn't have any car that costs less than your top-of-the-line base division (Honda) period. If I'm correct, the Avalon has always been less than the ES, my mother-in-law had a loaded '99 (XLS) and I think she paid $29K for it. I mean, I can get a loaded GS300 ($43K) for almost the same price as a loaded RL ($46K) and that's the Acura flagship ! Don't get me wrong, it's a great value but when you look at other luxury divisions, that's almost $30K less (not considering Q45 here) and doesn't have the panache of owning a 740, S500, or even an LS430. I just wish Acura would stop trying to be all things to all people.

Guest

Of course, when I reference luxury base (RSX) to top-of the-line base (Accord V6, even S2000) I'm not including trucks, i.e. Landcruiser to IS. I'm simply saying that Acura should distance itself more from Honda, instead of being an extension more so.

gohawks63

You bring up a very good point that was mentioned in the most recent Car & Driver I received today. They wrote a pretty uninspiring article on the '02 RL.

" To understand the RL is to understand the Acura of the past six years, at least. Rarely does one model reveal so much of the company's thinking, self-perception, and struggle". - Car & Driver

Think back to the late '80s and early '90s, Acura used the tag line:

"Precision crafted Performance"

vs. the Lexus tag line of "The Relentless pursuit of Perfection"

In my opinion only, as worthless as that may be, those two tag lines gave me a good feel for what the two brands were all about.

Acura = Performance with some luxury
Lexus = Luxury period

The problem for Acura is when they began to stray, but never defined what they wanted to be.

They then came out with the Vigor (of which I owned one). Nice, very reliable car, but not enough sport to overcome the shortage in interior space. Maybe should have been a two door.

They then thought they could be BMW & Lexus if they just went to the alphanumeric designations. Do we remember the somewhat arrogant and doomed "Some things are worth the price" tag line? It didn't last long.

1st gen TLs still had an identity crisis. 2.5TL was still nothing more than a rebadged Vigor. At least the 3.2TL bumped up the horsepower, but at a significant cost to the sticker price.

They then took one of the most respected model names (Legend) and threw it away and created the 3.5RL. Let's not forget the SLX. It was an Isuzu. Not that I have a problem with Isuzu, but it can't be good when you have to borrow a car to sell as your own.

Beginning with the 2nd gen TL, continued with the TL-S, and followed with the new RSX-S, I think Acura is going back to the performance/luxury strategy while offering a tremendous value at the same time. This is the strategy that worked so well for Acura with the 1st gen Integra and Legend.

Look at what we have now. Waiting lists for cars that are selling at or close to sticker, great press, and giving the other brands a run for their money.

Funny how history has a habit of repeating itself. Let's just hope they stay focused.