Got TLS back, Dealer says cooler wont help
08-20-2002, 06:57 PM
#1
Pro
Thread Starter
Got TLS back, Dealer says cooler wont help
I just got my TLS back with a new tranny, it went dead at 7k. Seems fine, crisp shifting, quieter.
Dealer tells me that they have done a hundred or so on the TLS since the S series came out.
Point blank the service manager tells me that the transmission is inferior. Any time you let the driver have control of the shifting, it will go bad, regardless of if you use it or not. That I dont believe, but he did go on to tell me that the problem isnt that the fluid is getting too hot, its that there is a valve on the transmission that is leaking a little, and that is causing the fluid to over heat a little, but that adding a cooler wont solve the heat problem, its the leak that needs to be solved.
He thought that the transmission is just not strong enough for that car, and he knows of other manufacturers trannys with driver controlled shifting that fail at a higher rate.
He also said that if I use in the future high performance tranny fliud, I will have better results with the tranny. I replied that Honda requires only their fluid, and he said thats true, and if I did use non-honda tranny fluid during the warranty period, that it would most likely void the warranty on the tranny. But after its expired, I should use high performance fluid.
I am unsure if the Fergerson Magnum law could cover me if I indeed did use non honda tranny fliud, but the bottom line is that I shouldnt have to even think about this.
I guess I will keep the car until the warranty expires, and decide what to do then.
Definetly not what I expected from Acura, their reputation has been severly tarnished.
Dealer tells me that they have done a hundred or so on the TLS since the S series came out.
Point blank the service manager tells me that the transmission is inferior. Any time you let the driver have control of the shifting, it will go bad, regardless of if you use it or not. That I dont believe, but he did go on to tell me that the problem isnt that the fluid is getting too hot, its that there is a valve on the transmission that is leaking a little, and that is causing the fluid to over heat a little, but that adding a cooler wont solve the heat problem, its the leak that needs to be solved.
He thought that the transmission is just not strong enough for that car, and he knows of other manufacturers trannys with driver controlled shifting that fail at a higher rate.
He also said that if I use in the future high performance tranny fliud, I will have better results with the tranny. I replied that Honda requires only their fluid, and he said thats true, and if I did use non-honda tranny fluid during the warranty period, that it would most likely void the warranty on the tranny. But after its expired, I should use high performance fluid.
I am unsure if the Fergerson Magnum law could cover me if I indeed did use non honda tranny fliud, but the bottom line is that I shouldnt have to even think about this.
I guess I will keep the car until the warranty expires, and decide what to do then.
Definetly not what I expected from Acura, their reputation has been severly tarnished.
08-20-2002, 07:33 PM
#2
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Owner's manual
The owner's manual allows non-Honda fluid ONLY if it is a short period of time and a flush with Honda ATF is done afterwards. This would be for emergency topping off cases.
I know because I've been reading my week old owner's manual.
I know because I've been reading my week old owner's manual.
08-21-2002, 12:35 PM
#3
Not a Blowhole
Although I am not convinced that overheating tranny oil by itself is the proximate cause of your tranny problems, and have posted to that effect, I think the dealer's points about fluid are poor thinking. Let the Professor expound:
In modern AT's, nearly all wear is from damage to the sliding surfaces - clutch packs and valves. The fluids available vary most in terms of their lubricity, or slipperiness. Ford Type F is moderately slippery, Dexron III very slippery, and Mercon/Mercon V somewhere in the middle. The manufacturers picks fluids that work best in terms of wear, smoothness of shifts (harder usually results in less wear because of less slippage), freedom from shudder (especially when coming to a stop from speed in the 2-1 downshift), etc.
Ford is very specific about which trannnies can use Merc, and which should have Merc V. In most cases, Merc V is not backward compatible with a tranny originally spec'ing Merc.
Now, Honda specifies its HFM type ATF for the same reason: Overall compatibility with their transmission designs. I doubt they missed it completely in the TL/TL-S, which makes the dealer's statements unlikely. My guess is that if you replaced the Honda ATF with Red Line or Amsoil the shifting quality would change dramatically, and could actually hasten the demise of the tranny as likely as extending it. It would be a crap shoot.
I still say the jury is out on this topic.
P.S. Fergerson Magnum act - Bwahahahahahaha!!!!
In modern AT's, nearly all wear is from damage to the sliding surfaces - clutch packs and valves. The fluids available vary most in terms of their lubricity, or slipperiness. Ford Type F is moderately slippery, Dexron III very slippery, and Mercon/Mercon V somewhere in the middle. The manufacturers picks fluids that work best in terms of wear, smoothness of shifts (harder usually results in less wear because of less slippage), freedom from shudder (especially when coming to a stop from speed in the 2-1 downshift), etc.
Ford is very specific about which trannnies can use Merc, and which should have Merc V. In most cases, Merc V is not backward compatible with a tranny originally spec'ing Merc.
Now, Honda specifies its HFM type ATF for the same reason: Overall compatibility with their transmission designs. I doubt they missed it completely in the TL/TL-S, which makes the dealer's statements unlikely. My guess is that if you replaced the Honda ATF with Red Line or Amsoil the shifting quality would change dramatically, and could actually hasten the demise of the tranny as likely as extending it. It would be a crap shoot.
I still say the jury is out on this topic.
P.S. Fergerson Magnum act - Bwahahahahahaha!!!!
08-22-2002, 03:49 AM
#4
Suzuka Master
A though or three...
Originally posted by Road Rage
Although I am not convinced that overheating tranny oil by itself is the proximate cause of your tranny problems, and have posted to that effect, I think the dealer's points about fluid are poor thinking. Let the Professor expound:
In modern AT's, nearly all wear is from damage to the sliding surfaces - clutch packs and valves. The fluids available vary most in terms of their lubricity, or slipperiness. Ford Type F is moderately slippery, Dexron III very slippery, and Mercon/Mercon V somewhere in the middle. The manufacturers picks fluids that work best in terms of wear, smoothness of shifts (harder usually results in less wear because of less slippage), freedom from shudder (especially when coming to a stop from speed in the 2-1 downshift), etc.
Ford is very specific about which trannnies can use Merc, and which should have Merc V. In most cases, Merc V is not backward compatible with a tranny originally spec'ing Merc.
Now, Honda specifies its HFM type ATF for the same reason: Overall compatibility with their transmission designs. I doubt they missed it completely in the TL/TL-S, which makes the dealer's statements unlikely. My guess is that if you replaced the Honda ATF with Red Line or Amsoil the shifting quality would change dramatically, and could actually hasten the demise of the tranny as likely as extending it. It would be a crap shoot.
I still say the jury is out on this topic.
P.S. Fergerson Magnum act - Bwahahahahahaha!!!!
Although I am not convinced that overheating tranny oil by itself is the proximate cause of your tranny problems, and have posted to that effect, I think the dealer's points about fluid are poor thinking. Let the Professor expound:
In modern AT's, nearly all wear is from damage to the sliding surfaces - clutch packs and valves. The fluids available vary most in terms of their lubricity, or slipperiness. Ford Type F is moderately slippery, Dexron III very slippery, and Mercon/Mercon V somewhere in the middle. The manufacturers picks fluids that work best in terms of wear, smoothness of shifts (harder usually results in less wear because of less slippage), freedom from shudder (especially when coming to a stop from speed in the 2-1 downshift), etc.
Ford is very specific about which trannnies can use Merc, and which should have Merc V. In most cases, Merc V is not backward compatible with a tranny originally spec'ing Merc.
Now, Honda specifies its HFM type ATF for the same reason: Overall compatibility with their transmission designs. I doubt they missed it completely in the TL/TL-S, which makes the dealer's statements unlikely. My guess is that if you replaced the Honda ATF with Red Line or Amsoil the shifting quality would change dramatically, and could actually hasten the demise of the tranny as likely as extending it. It would be a crap shoot.
I still say the jury is out on this topic.
P.S. Fergerson Magnum act - Bwahahahahahaha!!!!
1. Acura Care flipped-out when I mentioned the addition of a tranny cooler.... And, the Catch-22 is: they won't connect me to an engineer without having a problem. You should have heard the questions along with the buzz of the keystrokes. Boy, this Acura CS rep was not happy with my questions. The answers I got would probably disuade most people who wanted to put in RedLine ATF and/or add-on cooler. (I'm not saying not to do it -- just that someone is heading for soggy legal ground.)
2. Only two dealers would consent to the addition of a cooler and that was predicated on it being the Comptech cooler (B&M with brackets). The dealer would be standing behind the cooler NOT Acura. AS a note, I would hate to have an agreement with a dealer and then find that dealer had been bought out. I have been advocating the cooler, but it is NOT a panacea. Whatever wear is exacerbated or caused by high temp oxidation or non-optimal viscosity (due to high temps) would/should be helped with the cooler. As a note: when the car is run at low speeds (and Road Rage is one of the few people that seems to get this point), that tiny coolant-to-ATF intercooler is trying to keep the ATF at an optimal temp that is near or slightly above the coolant temp (185-210 degree F) range would NOT be unreasonable for a car that wasn't driving at WOT in Death Valley!
3. Comptech has been running the HIGH TEMP REDLINE ATF for around a year (in the Accord) and has also been running the same stuff in the CLS/TLS (with B&M add-on cooler). So far so good. Unfortunately, I've only gotten them to report that there have been no adverse effects on the shifting and/or reliability. They claim that the shifting is fine and they are recommending the cooler and Red Line ATF for use with the S/C. Now, please understand: they are NOT Acura and the MM act is one law. The owner’s manual and other info are also a contract (of sorts). IMO, anyone who thinks that they are going to be winners by heading to court to prove a point has already lost. Sorry, I like the idea, but there are some political concerns that weight heavily on some of this.
4. Up to this time NO group or entity has supplied temperature data on the internal transmission temperatures with the stock ("hockey puck") cooler. A data log of the temperatures that are registered by a pre-existing temperature sensor that is located inside the transmission would provide readings under a variety of operating conditions and ambient temperatures. A log of the temperatures, along with the conditions that generated them AND a log of temperatures (with similar conditions with a cooler and/or modified ATF) would go a long way to knowing (and proving) in lieu of guessing. I would only ask that a few people interested in the cooler and Redline fluid call Comptech and ask for detailed information. It could only help. At the worst, they just refuse.
5. There are gong to be some issues that are not going to be helped with tranny coolers: If the PCM is not commanding the solenoids, no tranny cooler will help. If the solenoids are contaminated with ferrous metal, the cooler will not alter the eventual outcome. If there are seals that are not sealing the clutch packs, the transmission will fail. And speaking of seals, there are issues that might need something more than anecdotal information to insure that all of the o-rings and seals are compatible with BOTH fluids.
So -- here is what Comptech told me:
1. The transmission runs hot without the additional cooler in various conditions.
2. They like the High Temp Redline fluid.
3. If you have a problem, you should have a look at the 90-009 Service Bulletin related to the Automatic Tranny Exchange Program. They are told to check to see if the fluid and "...make sure [the transmission] is filled with Honda ATF"
AS Road Rage mentioned, the ATF is like mystery juice and the clutch slippage has to be just right. To little slip and there is a large impulse force transmitted through the box and how energy is dissipated is important. To much slip and you get heat...
If anyone mentions the MM act as a panacea for all mods, consider that just having a supporting/helpful law is not an end all solution. If Acura wanted to be tough, there is nothing stopping them from "calling out" the corporate attorneys. I wonder how many people realize that if they wanted to be "hard nosed" about an issue, they can and will let you take them to court. And, not being a personal injury case, it would not be as easy to find a Jacoby-and-Clutchpacks to handle everything with a single 800 call...
The reason I'm chiming in here is:
1. I have mentioned the possibilities of how certain "experiments" and add-on "could" help the trannies. I did do some calculations related to heat load and duty cycle. It is true that not all of the losses in the drive train are viscous or frictional in nature. IMO, there are situations where the present cooler will not remove enough heat (The heat values were predicated under WOT, minimal heat transfer through the transmission case, a 100% duty cycle, and total loss being only 20% of total drive train loss)
2. There are also people that are advocating the modifications and are soft-selling any possible down sides to what could be some promising additions (the jury is out). I'd love to see some more hard data. However, if you do this, please do the mods with your eyes open to potential hassles.
$0.02
08-22-2002, 08:13 AM
#5
Pro
Thread Starter
That wasnt $.02, that was more like $.22!
Thanks for the info. IMO, as I have been driving my new tranny for over a day now, I can say that it definetely changed the characteristics of the car. In fact, I believe that the tranny was bad from day one that I had the car.
My car had 3 miles on the odo when I purchased it, hadnt even been test driven by anyone else, I had purchased it the day after it came off the truck. So how does a tranny become defective so shortly after being assembled at the factory? From the stories here (Trannys failing at 700 miles, etc) it sounds like there is a real quality problem in Japan, since it is the only component in our autos from Japan.
Bottom line, if you own this car, be prepared to replace trannys, perhaps on a regular basis like an air filter. Hopefully this will become SO expensive to Acura that they will find the issue soon enough.
Thanks for the info. IMO, as I have been driving my new tranny for over a day now, I can say that it definetely changed the characteristics of the car. In fact, I believe that the tranny was bad from day one that I had the car.
My car had 3 miles on the odo when I purchased it, hadnt even been test driven by anyone else, I had purchased it the day after it came off the truck. So how does a tranny become defective so shortly after being assembled at the factory? From the stories here (Trannys failing at 700 miles, etc) it sounds like there is a real quality problem in Japan, since it is the only component in our autos from Japan.
Bottom line, if you own this car, be prepared to replace trannys, perhaps on a regular basis like an air filter. Hopefully this will become SO expensive to Acura that they will find the issue soon enough.
08-22-2002, 09:30 AM
#6
Not a Blowhole
There is a huge distinction between a quality issue, and a design issue. It is premature to blame Japan, Indiana, or Afghanistan for any QA problem if the design engineering is the culprit. I believe it will be shown that it is a design problem, and that Acura will make the changes in production, and in remanufactured trannies, that will correct it - otherwise they will have many more dissatisfied, and more impoprtantly, non-repeat customers.
08-22-2002, 09:35 AM
#7
Lead Footed
Re: A though or three...
Eric,
This point is hitting closer to the point I was trying to make in my poll of which shifting styles have had the greater failure rates.
Two potential issues came out of that and a couple of other threads.
1] When driving in D5 (or D4 possibly), the force transmitted through the tranny when downshifting under acceleration. Back in the early days of OD automatics, it was advised not to leave the shifter in OD for normal driving. The forces created by the sudden demand to downshift from OD to the lower gear is extreme. And depending on the program logic and or the way the valve and such manage this transition of force can be a problem.
2] Or, along the same vain, people who are engaged in "racing" their car and are using the auto mode might be subjecting their trannys to more dramatic changes in force. This would cause an increase in heating, as well as straining the internals to manage the transitioning of forces.
This is why I was really curious about what effect shifting sytles have had on this problem. While it wasn't scientific, it sort of helped my belief that it was.
These views are based on experiences in my former life as an auto mechanic, hot rodder and drag racer.
RUF
This point is hitting closer to the point I was trying to make in my poll of which shifting styles have had the greater failure rates.
Two potential issues came out of that and a couple of other threads.
1] When driving in D5 (or D4 possibly), the force transmitted through the tranny when downshifting under acceleration. Back in the early days of OD automatics, it was advised not to leave the shifter in OD for normal driving. The forces created by the sudden demand to downshift from OD to the lower gear is extreme. And depending on the program logic and or the way the valve and such manage this transition of force can be a problem.
2] Or, along the same vain, people who are engaged in "racing" their car and are using the auto mode might be subjecting their trannys to more dramatic changes in force. This would cause an increase in heating, as well as straining the internals to manage the transitioning of forces.
This is why I was really curious about what effect shifting sytles have had on this problem. While it wasn't scientific, it sort of helped my belief that it was.
These views are based on experiences in my former life as an auto mechanic, hot rodder and drag racer.
RUF
Originally posted by EricL
....
AS Road Rage mentioned, the ATF is like mystery juice and the clutch slippage has to be just right. To little slip and there is a large impulse force transmitted through the box and how energy is dissipated is important. To much slip and you get heat...
....
$0.02
....
AS Road Rage mentioned, the ATF is like mystery juice and the clutch slippage has to be just right. To little slip and there is a large impulse force transmitted through the box and how energy is dissipated is important. To much slip and you get heat...
....
$0.02
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08-22-2002, 09:46 AM
#8
Lead Footed
Originally posted by Road Rage
There is a huge distinction between a quality issue, and a design issue. It is premature to blame Japan, Indiana, or Afghanistan for any QA problem if the design engineering is the culprit. I believe it will be shown that it is a design problem, and that Acura will make the changes in production, and in remanufactured trannies, that will correct it - otherwise they will have many more dissatisfied, and more impoprtantly, non-repeat customers.
There is a huge distinction between a quality issue, and a design issue. It is premature to blame Japan, Indiana, or Afghanistan for any QA problem if the design engineering is the culprit. I believe it will be shown that it is a design problem, and that Acura will make the changes in production, and in remanufactured trannies, that will correct it - otherwise they will have many more dissatisfied, and more impoprtantly, non-repeat customers.
I seem to recall someone telling me that the early TLs had some tranny problems as well. I guy who looked at buying one back then said he didn't get one because the tranny was to erractic in it's downshifts. Later a dealer told him it was a logic problem and Acura was "tweaking it"
Assuming that Acura has yet to get it right, especially considering the beast is constantly changing. (engine, power, etc.) The problem here could be related. Poor logic managing the transitioning of force could still be an issue. But, there may be components that meet normal force testing in the labs, but when compounded by a possible logic problem, it could lead to premature failures.
Just some thoughts to add to the mess.
Anyway - I'm still running mine hard, spinning tires, hard chirps in 2nd, and red lining it regularly. And after 17mos, my 02 TLS is still banging the gears . . . for now, but I do use the shiftgate (manual) shifting mode.
RUF
08-23-2002, 07:37 PM
#9
Not a Blowhole
Ruf:
I do not know (no one does) whether your theory is right, but it is plausible.
I do know that in a properly functioning AT, using SS reduces wear because it reduces slipping, as it invokes faster & tighter valve engagements. Of course, if that SS usage involves 100% trips to redline at upshift, and 100% downshifts from redline, all bets are off - one would never get the 100k or more that AT's are designed to provide.
Regarding alternative AT fluiuds for the Honda, for those that think it might help (I do not):
1) Valvoline has a new Durablend min/syn formula called "Multi-car" formula. It is a Dex III/Merc V compatible fluid, so it has the proper anti shudder, low vis, high quality base stock and additive components. It is a PAO synoil. Valvoline says it is compatible with latemodel Honda AT's.
2) Amsoil's AT is a quality formualtion
3) RedLine D4 ATF.
I replaced the D4 ATF in my Outback with Valvolines mineral based "MaxLife" formulation for older cars. aLTHOUGH I AM A BIG Red Line fan, I must say that in this car, in this tranny, the MacxLife resukted in better overall shiftability - it is far smoother. Now, that makes sense based on my previous post in this thread around lubricity and its affect on tranny shift qualities. It may be that the RedLine might extend the life, but I found the 1-2 shift too harsh.
BTW, as the trend to having more and more cars with more miles on the road continues, you will see more products geared for the "geezers". The MaxLife products are not gimmicks, but head on attempts to deal with real demands. I commend Valvoline for this fine product - they make a 10w30 engine oil with the same qualities.
2)
I do not know (no one does) whether your theory is right, but it is plausible.
I do know that in a properly functioning AT, using SS reduces wear because it reduces slipping, as it invokes faster & tighter valve engagements. Of course, if that SS usage involves 100% trips to redline at upshift, and 100% downshifts from redline, all bets are off - one would never get the 100k or more that AT's are designed to provide.
Regarding alternative AT fluiuds for the Honda, for those that think it might help (I do not):
1) Valvoline has a new Durablend min/syn formula called "Multi-car" formula. It is a Dex III/Merc V compatible fluid, so it has the proper anti shudder, low vis, high quality base stock and additive components. It is a PAO synoil. Valvoline says it is compatible with latemodel Honda AT's.
2) Amsoil's AT is a quality formualtion
3) RedLine D4 ATF.
I replaced the D4 ATF in my Outback with Valvolines mineral based "MaxLife" formulation for older cars. aLTHOUGH I AM A BIG Red Line fan, I must say that in this car, in this tranny, the MacxLife resukted in better overall shiftability - it is far smoother. Now, that makes sense based on my previous post in this thread around lubricity and its affect on tranny shift qualities. It may be that the RedLine might extend the life, but I found the 1-2 shift too harsh.
BTW, as the trend to having more and more cars with more miles on the road continues, you will see more products geared for the "geezers". The MaxLife products are not gimmicks, but head on attempts to deal with real demands. I commend Valvoline for this fine product - they make a 10w30 engine oil with the same qualities.
2)
08-24-2002, 12:56 PM
#10
Lead Footed
Regarding alternative AT fluiuds for the Honda, for those that think it might help (I do not):
Well as long as i'm under warranty, I'm not going to mess with the ATF. However, if mine lasts another 18 months, all bets are off. There are always pros and cons to 3rd party products. So if Red Line results in a firmer/harder shift, I may make the switch since it's what us old hot rodders like anyway. Nothing like a neck snapping shifting automatic.
RUF
Well as long as i'm under warranty, I'm not going to mess with the ATF. However, if mine lasts another 18 months, all bets are off. There are always pros and cons to 3rd party products. So if Red Line results in a firmer/harder shift, I may make the switch since it's what us old hot rodders like anyway. Nothing like a neck snapping shifting automatic.
RUF
08-25-2002, 07:06 AM
#11
Originally posted by Road Rage
There is a huge distinction between a quality issue, and a design issue. It is premature to blame Japan, Indiana, or Afghanistan for any QA problem if the design engineering is the culprit. I believe it will be shown that it is a design problem, and that Acura will make the changes in production, and in remanufactured trannies, that will correct it - otherwise they will have many more dissatisfied, and more impoprtantly, non-repeat customers.
There is a huge distinction between a quality issue, and a design issue. It is premature to blame Japan, Indiana, or Afghanistan for any QA problem if the design engineering is the culprit. I believe it will be shown that it is a design problem, and that Acura will make the changes in production, and in remanufactured trannies, that will correct it - otherwise they will have many more dissatisfied, and more impoprtantly, non-repeat customers.
At this point i don't think Honda/Acura has the problem solved or will ever get it solved. If Honda had the problem solved we would'nt be having multiple tranny failures...and if they did solve it, they would've be issuing out new ones instead of remanufactored one. *the remanufactored ones are made to perform as factory one, there are no changes on them as of this time, talked to one of the service guys that just had a meeting with an engineer* It's been a year, Honda has full knowledge of this problem, move this issue up the priority list; find the problem and fix it!
Before we can do anything we have to know what is causing the problem. We know it isn't Honda's stupid excuse that they put in wrong type of ATF...is it Mechanical, Electrical. In my opinion, i dont think it's a mechanical problem...our engine is Honda's second highest output engine *second to the NSX* NSX doesn't have tranny failure, the s2000 @ 240 HP doesn't have tranny failure, the MDX @ 240 doesn't have tranny failure. But TL/CL at 260 HP and Accord V6 @ 200 have tranny failures. www.accordv6.com
I agree with some of you that this is purely electrical. The computer controls everyaspect of the tranny. Computer tells it when to shift. The only way is to go through, evaluate and adjust the mapping.
I don't think it's a heat problem. Does anyone know "how" much the tranny cooler acutually helps. Changing to Redline or Amsoil will just delay your trannys "death". Because if Honda's ATF get too hot, then so will REDLINE and AMSOIL. Honda uses their own tranny fluid and power steering fluid....with toyota and other manuf. you can use the dex III off the self with no problem. So i don't really see how changing to redline will stop the problem....maybe delay but not stop.
Due to politics and ecomonics i know that Honda will not acknowledge this as a" issue". They will not replaces everyones "defective tranny design" becuase they don't want to be liable or be at fault for it. They will just keep on replacing trannys as fast as they keep breaking. They have the 03 Accord tranny and electronics redesigned, so they are not gonna fix th
e problem, they are only gonna replace it.
There's nothing much we can really do but hope that our tranny doesn't give way after warrenty.
08-25-2002, 03:47 PM
#12
Not a Blowhole
I tend to agree with you that Honda knows the problem, but may be sitting on a solution for the new cars because it has a replacement tranny in the works for the next TL series.
So, they may be accepting the grief factor and laying out new trannies because the accounting numbers make sense - that is, it is cheaper to take some disgruntled customers switching over to Lexus rather than redesign/re-issue a new tranny. Same as BMW with the lousy 4.0L V8's and the 4 cylinder head gasket problems.
Now, if Honda Aisin or NipponDenso or whoever made the tranny goofed, they would be all over them to correct it - if the OEM kmade it the way Honda spec'd it, and Honda made errors in engineering, Honda would have to decide what to do. My guess is that they will correct it in the remfd trannies for those customers who keep the cars, and address it by making a proper tranny for the new models.
As uou indicated, Honda supplies plenty of excellent Accord trannies, so they know how. At some point, an engineering type will "leak" thr truth - they always do.
So, they may be accepting the grief factor and laying out new trannies because the accounting numbers make sense - that is, it is cheaper to take some disgruntled customers switching over to Lexus rather than redesign/re-issue a new tranny. Same as BMW with the lousy 4.0L V8's and the 4 cylinder head gasket problems.
Now, if Honda Aisin or NipponDenso or whoever made the tranny goofed, they would be all over them to correct it - if the OEM kmade it the way Honda spec'd it, and Honda made errors in engineering, Honda would have to decide what to do. My guess is that they will correct it in the remfd trannies for those customers who keep the cars, and address it by making a proper tranny for the new models.
As uou indicated, Honda supplies plenty of excellent Accord trannies, so they know how. At some point, an engineering type will "leak" thr truth - they always do.
08-25-2002, 04:18 PM
#13
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Not to be rude or anything, but we already tested Maxlife on the engine of a few cars, and personally it was worse than plain oil in wear. Blackstone labs tested it.
08-25-2002, 10:17 PM
#14
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Originally posted by sotiri
That wasnt $.02, that was more like $.22!
Thanks for the info. IMO, as I have been driving my new tranny for over a day now, I can say that it definetely changed the characteristics of the car. In fact, I believe that the tranny was bad from day one that I had the car.
My car had 3 miles on the odo when I purchased it, hadnt even been test driven by anyone else, I had purchased it the day after it came off the truck. So how does a tranny become defective so shortly after being assembled at the factory? From the stories here (Trannys failing at 700 miles, etc) it sounds like there is a real quality problem in Japan, since it is the only component in our autos from Japan.
Bottom line, if you own this car, be prepared to replace trannys, perhaps on a regular basis like an air filter. Hopefully this will become SO expensive to Acura that they will find the issue soon enough.
That wasnt $.02, that was more like $.22!
Thanks for the info. IMO, as I have been driving my new tranny for over a day now, I can say that it definetely changed the characteristics of the car. In fact, I believe that the tranny was bad from day one that I had the car.
My car had 3 miles on the odo when I purchased it, hadnt even been test driven by anyone else, I had purchased it the day after it came off the truck. So how does a tranny become defective so shortly after being assembled at the factory? From the stories here (Trannys failing at 700 miles, etc) it sounds like there is a real quality problem in Japan, since it is the only component in our autos from Japan.
Bottom line, if you own this car, be prepared to replace trannys, perhaps on a regular basis like an air filter. Hopefully this will become SO expensive to Acura that they will find the issue soon enough.
08-25-2002, 10:34 PM
#15
Burning Brakes
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I don't know what the hell the problem truly is with these trannies. I'm a mathematician turned chemical salesman turn financial advisor, not an engineer. But I know enough not to believe anything the dealership tells you as to what the problem is (99% of the dealerships anyway). I also think it has nothing to do with driving style, mods or anything else other than poor design causing the trannies to fail. For the first year I had my car, 98% of my driving was done on the highway at 2000 rpm -- hardly a harsh condition for the tranny. I could maybe see one tranny going but not 2 (maybe 3).
Sotiri:
You said "Dealer tells me that they have done a hundred or so on the TLS since the S series came out. " Is "they" you dealership or Acura? I suspect you mean your dealership since it seems the trannies have had a 30 day back order for 10 months now.
I believe RR said at some point that using the SS my extend the life of the tranny. My experience tells me he may be right. The first tranny went at 8000 miles during which time I never used the SS. The next one went out 18000 miles later during which time I used the SS much more ofthen. It's been another 18000 miles on this tranny and I probably use the SS 75% of the time.
One thing is for sure, discussing and rediscussing the tranny issues is really getting old. It's unfortunate Acura hasn't done something about it.
Sotiri:
You said "Dealer tells me that they have done a hundred or so on the TLS since the S series came out. " Is "they" you dealership or Acura? I suspect you mean your dealership since it seems the trannies have had a 30 day back order for 10 months now.
I believe RR said at some point that using the SS my extend the life of the tranny. My experience tells me he may be right. The first tranny went at 8000 miles during which time I never used the SS. The next one went out 18000 miles later during which time I used the SS much more ofthen. It's been another 18000 miles on this tranny and I probably use the SS 75% of the time.
One thing is for sure, discussing and rediscussing the tranny issues is really getting old. It's unfortunate Acura hasn't done something about it.
08-25-2002, 11:17 PM
#16
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Originally posted by RedLined
For the first year I had my car, 98% of my driving was done on the highway at 2000 rpm -- hardly a harsh condition for the tranny
For the first year I had my car, 98% of my driving was done on the highway at 2000 rpm -- hardly a harsh condition for the tranny
So I wondered if the transmission spends too much time in 5th when it should be downshifting instead. Lugging causes excessive heat and excessive heat has been suspected in the failures so far. This could explain why mods and driving style aren't related to failure. In fact, using SS could help prevent the lugging because you could keep the tranny in the proper gear for the grade.
Just another thought.....
08-26-2002, 02:10 AM
#17
Originally posted by pianoman41
So I wondered if the transmission spends too much time in 5th when it should be downshifting instead. Lugging causes excessive heat and excessive heat has been suspected in the failures so far.
Just another thought.....
So I wondered if the transmission spends too much time in 5th when it should be downshifting instead. Lugging causes excessive heat and excessive heat has been suspected in the failures so far.
Just another thought.....
I don't know how many tranny failures are due to the fact of lugging. How many people drive 60MPH uphill. In my experience the computer logic design whether to downshift while inclined is pretty good. I have to go over a freeway overpass to get home...it is a steep hill, i usually go about 45-50 MPH, i drive with SS...and the computer does not downshift from 5 to 4. But when i goto school i got over this long inclined street. i go about 35-40 MPH, usuing SS, it will downshift from 4 to 3 automatically.
I think the reason is that 4th and 5th are overdrive gears and they are pretty close together..so the computer doesn't find it nessecary to downshift from 5 to 4 as often as it does from 4 to 3.
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