shamal

We are underway doing a valve adjustment and injector clean on the 99 TL. I removed the valve covers today and found a big discrepancy in the condition under each. The front was clean and rockers looked as expected, cause the oil has been changed every 5K kilometers on this engine. The rear however is quite different. Anyone know why this is, or have a guess? The left side valve cover is the front in the picture and the front is the 1st valve rocker picture.

Skirmich

We all have them like that.. After some discussions we came to the conclusion the front valve/head runs cooler than the rear since it's being hit by "cool" air from the rad while the rear head gets heat soaked with no extra cooling.

shamal

Thanks Skirmich you're the best, always helping and pitching in !
Here are the injectors and fuel rail, probably a pitch for Chevron gas, ( 250k Kilometers) I was told when I bought the car that fuel, in midgrade, would save me some grief with the engine. This is the first time the engine has been opened up, the fuel rail was spotless inside. EGR plugged, of course.
I will post pics of the serviced injectors when I get them back.

01tl4tl

make sure to service the IACV on bottom of TB assembly and clean TB throat air plate- both sides and edges, carb cleaner or deep creep is fine for those jobs
Wont hurt to lube the throttle and cruise control cables and return springs while its all apart!

the problem with lower than 91 octane is poor combustion- you wont see it in the fuel rails or injectors

do you run a good injector/fuel system/top end cleaner such as bg44 or seafoam?
those really help in the areas you cant see!
Even with running good quality gas = tier 1 (most major brands) with its extra cleaners built in, the addition of ethanol to fuel has caused a new problem in loading up = leaving behind unburnt and partially burnt combustion byproduct materials on the pistons and valves = so a bit of extra cleaning pays you back in the long run
Shiny pistons allow spark to work better- clean intake valve back seals better etc

01tl4tl

TIP: after the full valve adjustment- run them again= recheck all of them
As you are learning the technique of tightening the adjuster lock nut- the setting may get knocked off slightly
Better to find it now than hear a valve clicking.... that will drive you insane!!

ck our diy on the job for specs that differ from stock- to work with the fact our valves change with time

as always- a GO- NOGO feeler gauge is the right tool for the job
no way to go wrong with it!

01tl4tl

unless you really abuse the engine oil- there is no need to change it so often
the oil change reminder light = Mait Req light, is set for 7500 MILES
Starts blinking at startup about 6500 miles and gets more insistent as it nears its prescribed limit -
Then the light stays on all the time until you reset it using the 2 trip buttons on dash

fsttyms1

That is normal looking. All J series in these cars look like that.

shamal

04TL4tl: You're a good man, many thanks for your notes. This engine has never had any cleaners run through it, that's why I mentioned the fuel brand. I had never heard of GoNo go feeler gauges until the thread in here on valves. I'm going to check those out !
I will be cleaning a lot of parts, ( dad's job ), will post pics. I do a lot of servicing, lubricating etc along the way, the whole engine bay gets cleaned and checked over, all the fluids flushed and changed etc. My kids get a lot of experience on these projects and I work hard to make the end product hopefully run very well.

3.2TLc

Take your time, enjoy some true family bonding. Your attention to detail will pay off once finished.

shamal

Thanks 3.2, can anyone give me advice on whether or not to clean that back valve train a bit before adjusting the valve clearances ? I was thinking of a bit of Seafoam and a brush maybe?
many thanks

ErickUa5

Not to prove anyone wrong here but from what I've noticed on our cars the front valve cover gets fresh air while the rear one is where the pcv valve is pulling all the oil vapors.

While doing a valve adjustment on a 3rd Gen TL I notice that the front valve cover had the same crud as our rear valve cover on the inside, Why ? because the pcv valve on the 3rd Gen is at the front so its pulling up all the vapors to the front cover, meanwhile the rear valve cover gets fresh air so it stays clean.

Skirmich

^ I have seen several Js with our same crud pattern not the other way around?
Although that theory might still be solid too..

3.2TLc

Perhaps Justnspace can help us 2nd Gen guys by checking around with his 3rd Gen buddies ?
The PCV location may very well be a big part of the problem.....???

01tl4tl

its too late for seafoam to clean the valves- just go for it at this point

For others- run a can of seafoam in the oil for a week then change oil and filter
That will clean the valve area so it gets a better adjustment

With a go- nogo feeler gauge you slip it into the gap, it stops= its correct!
plenty of info online on correct use, and I wouldn't use anything else!! especially for noobs to the job

shamal

Thank you for your thoughts on the PCV, it was a discussion piece between my son and me. We are going to do a temp check on the valve covers when we're back up and running, may provide some insights for everyone on the issue.
My injectors are done and on the way back. Here is the note received from Bill at Mr Injector: " Your injectors arrived and have been serviced. There were some pattern irregularities on three of them and some minor flow reductions but they cleaned up perfectly. The report is in the package." I will post the report so you can see what the customer receives, and what my injectors look like after service.
I've done this before on domestic engines, and the engine performance improvement noticeable. I'm not surprised to see 3 of the injectors were not doing great, I'm sorry I did not mark which cylinder each came out of.

Does anyone have a post on removing the lower intake manifold to clean it ?

Thank you for everyone's help and interest in our project, working this weekend on the crank bolt, one basty nastard on this car. 1/2" drive tools are not going to do it, using 3/4" now. Then I can get back to the pleasant work of valves and cleaning throttle body etc.

01tl4tl

to remove crankshaft bolt the old school way, place a prybar in flywheel teeth to the ground/floor
then bump the starter a few times with key = pops the bolt loose for you!
Getting it tight again is another issue

shamal

It's off, quick, but not easy. I used the old school method, 3/4" drive tools, a jack stand under the extension near the power bar, crank bolt tool and power bar rooted to the ground, 6' of pipe and the angle of the pipe was above the roof of the car. I heard the crack about 6" from the ground, I thought I was gonna break a power bar, that's a lot of twist ! I guesstimate about 800 lbs of torque I put on that thing, but with the twisting metal etc, who knows ?


here are some threads to help someone, one has a great idea to build your own socket that makes total sense to me. It works cause all the impact goes to the socket, no spring in the metal left. There is a pdf at the last link, telling how Honda techs keep a 3/4" gun for this job. Hope it helps.

http://honda-tech.com/honda-prelude-...-bolt-2866453/
http://www.motor.com/magazine/pdfs/082000_08.pdf

3.2TLc

^^^ Thanks for the links posted above. Never can have enough info on stuff like this !

shamal

I noticed while cleaning the iac, that it became stuck after a good cleanout and being left for a few days. I discovered there was some black carbon deposit that had been loosened and collected underneath, possibly in the bearing area as well. I used Seafoam's lubricant and cleaner, and it dissolved the gunk and it took some patience and time to get it all out. I mention this because some may have found their iac failing after cleaning, and perhaps this may be a clue to why. It's a fiddly job, and the cleaner with lube certainly was nice to work with. I used it on the TB springs, did a very nice job there too.

YeuEmMaiMai

third gen has similar looking heads

eric the car guy J series valve adjustment video 1 about 27 min in you can see that the rear head is much darker than the front one in video 2

shamal

I noticed that too, and while I'm cleaning and adjusting, I notice the side with the PCV is darker than the passenger side, perhaps another clue as to that air movement inside the valve cover. I've sprayed a bit of that Seafoam cleaner and wiped , bringing things up much cleaner, the spark plug tubes came up great with it.

TLer trash

You're combining parts of two different methods here. Placing a pry bar in the flywheel teeth and bumping the starter will likely break flywheel teeth, the starter, or your prybar, while doing nothing to the crank bolt. Either breaker bar and socket on the crank bolt, and bump the starter; OR prybar in the flywheel teeth, and wrench on the crank bolt.

Iggy

I use this method. Home Depot pipe pics about halfway down the page. Works great and cheap.

Crank pully tool - Honda-Tech

shamal

We've got the lower intake runners out, here's some pics for those who want to know what's down there. You will notice how dirty the fuel injector ports, air passages and that infernal EGR passage ( yes it goes all the way down !) are, and the tiny air passages as well.
We took the power steering pump out, thanks to gnuts and gerzand for the tips, to get the runners out, and we're careful with the plastics. Don't want to break those injector plug holders.

Skirmich

^ Now port and polish those suckers while your at it!

shamal

Done !

shamal

Here are the original and set valve clearances. as is posted often on this site, some Intakes were loose, most Exhaust were tight.

Intake Intake Exhaust Exhaust
1 10, 10, 8, 9

2 11, 11, 9, 9

3 9, 9, 9 , 8

4 9, 9, 8, 8

5 8, 8, 8 , 8

6 8, 9, 9 , 9
New Setting for all 8 to 9, 8 to 9, 11 to 12, 11 to 12


I set the valves with old style gauges, and then my son set them with go-no-go gauges. They were all 1 thou over. I checked my son's settings and had to adjust 2 valves ever so slightly. I highly recommend the new style gauges, and thank everyone here that recommended using them. By the 4th time through I was confident and comfortable with the settings, torqued the nuts to 14lbs on the last run.

01tl4tl

That is some nice cleaning and polishing- I am guessing you dremel-port matched the intake openings to the size of each related opening in the gasket

yep, the old style single thickness gauges are a thing of the past!
the `new` (been around since 70s-80s in my toolbox) go/ no-go feeler gauge rocks!
Some do not understand its a graduated thickness piece of metal with a stop lip at the listed thickness
the beginning part is a little thinner, after the lip is thicker = could not be easier
it goes way past lip- or it doesn't go in at all- adjustment from there is simple!
GO in....NO GO in! with perfect in the middle

plus old style relied on techs feel of pull on the gauge- you have to pull it back to feel it out for 4 lbs tension (spec on car I used to do adjustments on every 7500 miles)
That's why all were off spec with flat gauge, while the 2 needing minor correction were the result of noob tightening- learning of the adjuster nut setting.
That's exactly why you recheck all after first adjustment- in case a little difference will drive you crazy

The exhaust tend to tighten = don't even worry about it

Skirmich

^ TBH that's why there is a small margin of error in the Valve Clearance. It will need a terrible adjustment to eat up that extra margin on the old style feelers. Go/No-Go´s are neat but not terribly necessary as the Valves basically cover the human error in the adjustment clearance.

Skirmich

^ And I will worry about tighten up valve adjustment as
TIGHTEN VALVES = Fuck up engines!
LOOSE VALVES = Less powah!, Noisy but no Fucked up Engines!


Better to be on the loose side than the tight side, Specially since Exhaust Valves will tend to tighten up again.

shamal

Thanks guys, and here's a page from the manual for anyone looking for more info. I have a couple of young sons learning to do this maintenance and upgrade work, so I'm always looking for ways to help them feel comfortable and do high quality work. Also want to contribute back to the site.

shamal

Here are the refurbished injectors installed. I got them done at Mr Injector. I use a bit of engine oil on the O rings and install them in the fuel rails first using a slight twisting motion. Be careful here you don't want to tear one on the sharp edge of the fuel rail opening. They are then lined up to slide into the runner openings. You will need to oil both the O rings and the rubber gaskets, to get them to slide smoothly all the way into the runner opening.

shamal

Installed the valve covers with new gaskets, UIM and TB etc. all new gaskets, PCV, cleaned the other sensors. I charged the battery up, hooked it up, pulled the fuel and ecu fuses , turned it over a few times to get the new oil up top.It fired right up after cranking a bit with the circuits energized . It runs nicely, no codes, don't know if I was lucky or what.
The only thing I've noticed is the idle is a little low, removed the ECU a couple of times, hoping it will reset. Perhaps the iac is old and acting up ?
A huge THANK YOU to everyone on this site for all the great posts and help. You sure made life a lot more fun and a whole lot easier!

Skirmich

^ Idle must be re-learn every time you unplug battery or pull clock fuse.
It will run like crap for the first couple of miles on the first run, After a couple of fire up´s it will return to normal don't worry.

shamal

Update; Our valves were a little noisy after Seafoaming the engine, AFTER setting the valves. We just pulled the covers yesterday and found them all a little loose, 002"-003" roughly. We reset the valves and the engine is quiet. Just a thought for those thinking about doing a valve set, maybe Seafoam 1st, as recommended elsewhere on this site. I'm guessing there was enough buildup removed to create more clearance ?
We did another engine with noisy hydraulic lifters, and the sound is completely gone after treatment and an oil change, can beat that for an easy fix, before the bigger job of taking the lifters apart and cleaning them..
Here is another product that has been suggested to me the Kreen cleaner which some say is much better than Seafoam.
Engine Cleaners

01tl4tl

yes seafoam the oil BEFORE the valve adjust and fresh oil change =
gets crud buildup off for more accurate setting!

Note on prior post saying loose valves better than tight = except loose valves slap piston tops! why do you think they cut out an area for the valves on the piston tops? Clearance,,Clarence
other example:
When the tbelt breaks, some exhaust valves are open, piston rises and hits stuck valve, bends its shaft and edge = total loss of TL motor when tbelt breaks

01tl4tl

I ckd that cleaner stuff site, no info at all, and not for sale or use by the general public!

Chojun

@shamal

When you seafoamed your engine, did you use the PCV method?

Or just the crank/fuel tank one.

Sounds like I need to run some more seafoam through my engine before getting after the valves.

Looks like on this engine the injectors are mounted at the top of the runners?

01tl4tl

we do NOT have a PCV method for seafoam on the TL, no brake master method either!

To clean engine oil passages and parts: use 1/2 can seafoam in a full crankcase of oil (4.5-5 qts)
If first time in the oil, I suggest a new oil filter to capture the amount of freed up crud headed its way!
then add the seafoam= 1/2 can to oil port- where you add the engine oil

Drive normally for 100-200 miles over a week or 2
Trips over 30 minutes really do a god job! heat and time are seafoams friends
I like to hit vtec a few times to get lots of cleaner pumped thru its slider rails- they like to gung up~

when ready to change oil based on color/miles driven, warm up oil with 15 minute freeway blast-
drain oil while warm/hot so all the liquefied crud can easily drain out
change filter with quality brand of your choice

Probably time for new crush washer for drain plug
Add new oil
Done!

may need to change oil slightly early next time as cleaners remain and working in the system

thelastaspec

I will have to come hear it after the adjustment. I think mine are a little noisy... Did you rebuild the power steering pump yet?