Finally went to the track!
11-21-2008, 11:31 PM
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Finally went to the track!
NASA HPDE 1 at Infineon Raceway
Ah it was great to finally see what's what at the track. See what the mods to the car can do, and most importantly, improve the most important aspect of driving: myself.
Highly highly recommend everyone to join NASA and start running at HPDE events.
ps: Note the missing foglights? To the ghettoass SOB who stole them... burn in hell.
Ah it was great to finally see what's what at the track. See what the mods to the car can do, and most importantly, improve the most important aspect of driving: myself.
Highly highly recommend everyone to join NASA and start running at HPDE events.
ps: Note the missing foglights? To the ghettoass SOB who stole them... burn in hell.
LOL
11-22-2008, 11:11 AM
#5
I cut the fake fog light open on my 01- more air to the engine with removed intake resonator box~
NASA and many other groups-clubs, rent track days across the country
Check out your local tracks for users and contact them
Thunderhill is a great track 1 hour north of Sacramento ca- combines 3 miles of the best of Laguna and Infineon- often get track day schools for less there too.
Everyone NEEDS to do a few of these, and find out- under pro guidance- exactly what the car will do when pushed and how to control it- it will CHANGE your life!
Not to mention being cheaper than any speeding ticket---
and your instructor constantly saying- full throttle-full throttlel!!!! is fun
NASA and many other groups-clubs, rent track days across the country
Check out your local tracks for users and contact them
Thunderhill is a great track 1 hour north of Sacramento ca- combines 3 miles of the best of Laguna and Infineon- often get track day schools for less there too.
Everyone NEEDS to do a few of these, and find out- under pro guidance- exactly what the car will do when pushed and how to control it- it will CHANGE your life!
Not to mention being cheaper than any speeding ticket---
and your instructor constantly saying- full throttle-full throttlel!!!! is fun
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11-23-2008, 10:20 AM
#9
Senior Moderator
These events are all over america and every one should participate. You will learn alot about your ability and gain a lot as well. Its also a very safe way to test out the car
Look for your local SCCA groups as well.
I did one not that long ago
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...231&highlight=
11-23-2008, 11:24 AM
#11
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much thanks all =)
unfortunately no vids.. and I only ended up buying this single pic since the others were... um... less flattering.......
anyone wanna sponsor me a GoPro Motorsports HERO Wide? =D
phee: good eye man! I was wondering if anyone'd catch it.
As for mods worth mentioning in track terms...
Tein SS - Tein recommended spec + corner balanced + full stiff
Hankook Ventus R-S2 - 235/40-18
So yep I went a bit over-zealous with tire width... so ended up having to clear the fenders (front and rear) quite a bit for clearance issues. Even now I'm still having a bit of rubbing in the rear if things get too jittery in mountain roads.
But I do have to say... once those tires were broken in... oh boy... sweet mother of grip... and that's what matters at the track... well.. grip... and following the line. Being on the line allowed me to pass a few off-line BMWs and STi's even! but of course the Subbies blew right past me back on the straights.
Highly highly recommend everyone to track their car at least once.
This particular event was a promise I made to myself after I blew up my last car before I got to track it. It really sucks putting all that effort into building a machine and have nothing to prove its existence and capabilities except your memory (which is still a beautiful thing... but a photo/vid you can show your kids someday :P)
unfortunately no vids.. and I only ended up buying this single pic since the others were... um... less flattering.......
anyone wanna sponsor me a GoPro Motorsports HERO Wide? =D
phee: good eye man! I was wondering if anyone'd catch it.
As for mods worth mentioning in track terms...
Tein SS - Tein recommended spec + corner balanced + full stiff
Hankook Ventus R-S2 - 235/40-18
So yep I went a bit over-zealous with tire width... so ended up having to clear the fenders (front and rear) quite a bit for clearance issues. Even now I'm still having a bit of rubbing in the rear if things get too jittery in mountain roads.
But I do have to say... once those tires were broken in... oh boy... sweet mother of grip... and that's what matters at the track... well.. grip... and following the line. Being on the line allowed me to pass a few off-line BMWs and STi's even! but of course the Subbies blew right past me back on the straights.
Highly highly recommend everyone to track their car at least once.
This particular event was a promise I made to myself after I blew up my last car before I got to track it. It really sucks putting all that effort into building a machine and have nothing to prove its existence and capabilities except your memory (which is still a beautiful thing... but a photo/vid you can show your kids someday :P)
11-23-2008, 01:21 PM
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02type-s: ADR Cypher... 18 x 8.5. I believe discontinued. Only picked them up because I had a friend who worked there who gave me an unbelievable deal.
In retrospect... I probably should've paid more attention to wheel weight... but for my purposes (99% street 1% track haha)... these poser rims do just fine.
In retrospect... I probably should've paid more attention to wheel weight... but for my purposes (99% street 1% track haha)... these poser rims do just fine.
11-23-2008, 01:30 PM
#14
some track websites have video and links to various schools with pics of their track day fun
check this one, has in-car and on-bike vids, the car is running a moderate lap similar to noob track day speed- the bike is going flat out
http://thunderhill.com/ has some of the clubs that run track days listed- see schedule for other groups then internet search for them
http://thunderhill.com/html/trackmap.html
Most tracks will have a similar website so this is generalized advice
check this one, has in-car and on-bike vids, the car is running a moderate lap similar to noob track day speed- the bike is going flat out
http://thunderhill.com/ has some of the clubs that run track days listed- see schedule for other groups then internet search for them
http://thunderhill.com/html/trackmap.html
Most tracks will have a similar website so this is generalized advice
11-23-2008, 01:35 PM
#15
I have the same size rims/tires on my 01, a bit of massaging the metal and some cutting makes plenty of room
ON tein settings- next time have your instuctor work with you and maybe soften the rears to reduce understeer
check tire pressure by painting a stripe on sidewall, check after session- it will show if pressure low or ok
about 40 psi front 38 rear would be good starting points
ON tein settings- next time have your instuctor work with you and maybe soften the rears to reduce understeer
check tire pressure by painting a stripe on sidewall, check after session- it will show if pressure low or ok
about 40 psi front 38 rear would be good starting points
11-23-2008, 04:46 PM
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01tl4tl:
ya.. the fenders need a lil more work for clearance. I'll break out the heat gun and hammer again eventually... when I'm not lazy :P
and thanks for the suggestions re: suspension settings. I did work with my instructor, who is also the owner of the shop where I send my car, and who is also a seasoned NASA enduro and time attack veteran (JDM DC2R!). (and in case you're wondering why he didn't troubleshoot the rubbing issue, it's because I'm cheap and told him I'd resolve it on my own to save a few bucks :P) As for tire pressure, I ran 40/40 all around and the car rotated beautifully (more than enough for my amateur level / conservative driving style)
Back to suspension setting! The instructor noted and I later agreed (after the first few laps) that even full stiff all around on the Tein SS (which is street oriented) is still on the softer side for the purposes of driving at Infineon.
On that note, (and pardon if I'm speaking stuff the more experienced guys already know here)... I think it's a good time to talk a bit about what suspension parts selection and setting really means for the newer folks just getting into automotive modification. (I'm no master either, so if I make a mistake here, please 'nicely' point it out and offer the correction)
First and foremost, there is no 'ONE' universal best setting. Even for a single track. Every time you visit that track, something will be different, and it's the fine tuning adjustments that make the pro teams pro. On the street, settings become even more flexible in terms of compromises you're willing to make between handling characteristics and ride comfort. Furthermore, a setting that works well for one person and his specific car may go completely against your liking and your specific car.
Purpose should be first thought. Street or track? The primary difference here is road condition and quality, as well as course design, as those factors affect matters of available grip and driving condition. Real world streets are littered with potholes, dips and cracks and other calamities where a softer suspension could really save your back and even provide more compliance to your handling characteristics to prevent sudden breakaways.
In my particular track case, Infineon is graced with buttery smooth asphalt with very minor bumps/dips... along with wide sweepers and fluid S-turns. Read that as the road Gods are happy and have given me a grip abundant driving condition. On the same note, with the newly purchased Hankook RS2s just broken in with around 600 miles of regular commute, the tires are ready to grip too.
Suspension choice and setting is a function of available grip. The more grip you have, the stiffer/firmer you can go, and vice versa. The reasoning here is simple.
An overly firm suspension will overpower weak tires causing slip and slide, whereas mega grippy tires will overpower soft suspension causing pitch and roll.
Balance is key!
For my purposes, virtually 99% street and 1% track, I lucked out on the purchase of the Tein SS with its relatively tame spring rates and wide range of street oriented damper adjustability. The tire selection was more of a cost-based / try-something-new purchase.
On the street, where I drive conservative even by grandpa standards, I run close to full soft, clicking in enough damping to compensate for the stiffer sidewalls of the Hankook (compared to my previous Pirelli P Zero Nero), but with overall compliance for a smooth comfortable ride.
At the track, where grip levels and road conditions are improved, I can up the firmness ante until... well... in Infineon's case... until I maxed out with full stiffness, to find that the grip conditions allowed for even more than my car was able to dial up with my current configuration.
So what's the point of all this?
Like I said in the very first post, going to the track taught me what's what, in terms of the car, in terms of the add-on parts, in terms of my own driving.
I'm glad I have the adjustability range of the Tein SS, and I'll keep using them, since I am a street car with very seldom track outings. I may consider downgrading my next tire selection in terms of grip, trading for more comfort and quality, simply since my current setup doesn't appear up to task to maximize the available grip.
For the one liner finish: Think purpose first.
ps: I'm sure some of you are then wondering, "why not get more upgrades like swaybars n stuff to maximize the handling?" Well... again... purpose. The TL was never meant to be a track car. I've considered the bars, but ultimately felt that with my granny driving, that I just wouldn't be enjoying them as much as have the same $300 in my savings account :P
though, I am considering SPC camber / toe links / arms to get my alignment right.
ya.. the fenders need a lil more work for clearance. I'll break out the heat gun and hammer again eventually... when I'm not lazy :P
and thanks for the suggestions re: suspension settings. I did work with my instructor, who is also the owner of the shop where I send my car, and who is also a seasoned NASA enduro and time attack veteran (JDM DC2R!). (and in case you're wondering why he didn't troubleshoot the rubbing issue, it's because I'm cheap and told him I'd resolve it on my own to save a few bucks :P) As for tire pressure, I ran 40/40 all around and the car rotated beautifully (more than enough for my amateur level / conservative driving style)
Back to suspension setting! The instructor noted and I later agreed (after the first few laps) that even full stiff all around on the Tein SS (which is street oriented) is still on the softer side for the purposes of driving at Infineon.
On that note, (and pardon if I'm speaking stuff the more experienced guys already know here)... I think it's a good time to talk a bit about what suspension parts selection and setting really means for the newer folks just getting into automotive modification. (I'm no master either, so if I make a mistake here, please 'nicely' point it out and offer the correction)
First and foremost, there is no 'ONE' universal best setting. Even for a single track. Every time you visit that track, something will be different, and it's the fine tuning adjustments that make the pro teams pro. On the street, settings become even more flexible in terms of compromises you're willing to make between handling characteristics and ride comfort. Furthermore, a setting that works well for one person and his specific car may go completely against your liking and your specific car.
Purpose should be first thought. Street or track? The primary difference here is road condition and quality, as well as course design, as those factors affect matters of available grip and driving condition. Real world streets are littered with potholes, dips and cracks and other calamities where a softer suspension could really save your back and even provide more compliance to your handling characteristics to prevent sudden breakaways.
In my particular track case, Infineon is graced with buttery smooth asphalt with very minor bumps/dips... along with wide sweepers and fluid S-turns. Read that as the road Gods are happy and have given me a grip abundant driving condition. On the same note, with the newly purchased Hankook RS2s just broken in with around 600 miles of regular commute, the tires are ready to grip too.
Suspension choice and setting is a function of available grip. The more grip you have, the stiffer/firmer you can go, and vice versa. The reasoning here is simple.
An overly firm suspension will overpower weak tires causing slip and slide, whereas mega grippy tires will overpower soft suspension causing pitch and roll.
Balance is key!
For my purposes, virtually 99% street and 1% track, I lucked out on the purchase of the Tein SS with its relatively tame spring rates and wide range of street oriented damper adjustability. The tire selection was more of a cost-based / try-something-new purchase.
On the street, where I drive conservative even by grandpa standards, I run close to full soft, clicking in enough damping to compensate for the stiffer sidewalls of the Hankook (compared to my previous Pirelli P Zero Nero), but with overall compliance for a smooth comfortable ride.
At the track, where grip levels and road conditions are improved, I can up the firmness ante until... well... in Infineon's case... until I maxed out with full stiffness, to find that the grip conditions allowed for even more than my car was able to dial up with my current configuration.
So what's the point of all this?
Like I said in the very first post, going to the track taught me what's what, in terms of the car, in terms of the add-on parts, in terms of my own driving.
I'm glad I have the adjustability range of the Tein SS, and I'll keep using them, since I am a street car with very seldom track outings. I may consider downgrading my next tire selection in terms of grip, trading for more comfort and quality, simply since my current setup doesn't appear up to task to maximize the available grip.
For the one liner finish: Think purpose first.
ps: I'm sure some of you are then wondering, "why not get more upgrades like swaybars n stuff to maximize the handling?" Well... again... purpose. The TL was never meant to be a track car. I've considered the bars, but ultimately felt that with my granny driving, that I just wouldn't be enjoying them as much as have the same $300 in my savings account :P
though, I am considering SPC camber / toe links / arms to get my alignment right.
11-23-2008, 05:19 PM
#17
I like a bit of negative camber- makes the car turn in better
When you start going fast you will notice the understeer an soften the rear just a bit
I have a lot of laps back when it was sears point, you need to move in on turn 2 about2 more feet and get up on that curb~ at least kiss it!
When you start going fast you will notice the understeer an soften the rear just a bit
I have a lot of laps back when it was sears point, you need to move in on turn 2 about2 more feet and get up on that curb~ at least kiss it!
11-23-2008, 06:18 PM
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01tl4tl:
agree on a bit of negative camber.
but...
and hope I'm not coming off smartypants... but to reduce understeer, you should stiffen the rear, either by spring rate, damping rate, or roll rate... or by any other means.
when you soften the rear, you effectively lower the rear roll stiffness, thus decrease rear weight transfer, ultimately decreasing the slip angle of the rear tires... inducing more understeer.
but of course... the ultimate point isn't arguing suspension theory. it's about having an enjoyable drive and setting a respectable lap time. If your driving preferences suit a softer rear, who am I to judge?
agree on a bit of negative camber.
but...
and hope I'm not coming off smartypants... but to reduce understeer, you should stiffen the rear, either by spring rate, damping rate, or roll rate... or by any other means.
when you soften the rear, you effectively lower the rear roll stiffness, thus decrease rear weight transfer, ultimately decreasing the slip angle of the rear tires... inducing more understeer.
but of course... the ultimate point isn't arguing suspension theory. it's about having an enjoyable drive and setting a respectable lap time. If your driving preferences suit a softer rear, who am I to judge?
11-23-2008, 09:15 PM
#20
Senior Moderator
01tl4tl:
agree on a bit of negative camber.
but...
and hope I'm not coming off smartypants... but to reduce understeer, you should stiffen the rear, either by spring rate, damping rate, or roll rate... or by any other means.
when you soften the rear, you effectively lower the rear roll stiffness, thus decrease rear weight transfer, ultimately decreasing the slip angle of the rear tires... inducing more understeer.
but of course... the ultimate point isn't arguing suspension theory. it's about having an enjoyable drive and setting a respectable lap time. If your driving preferences suit a softer rear, who am I to judge?
agree on a bit of negative camber.
but...
and hope I'm not coming off smartypants... but to reduce understeer, you should stiffen the rear, either by spring rate, damping rate, or roll rate... or by any other means.
when you soften the rear, you effectively lower the rear roll stiffness, thus decrease rear weight transfer, ultimately decreasing the slip angle of the rear tires... inducing more understeer.
but of course... the ultimate point isn't arguing suspension theory. it's about having an enjoyable drive and setting a respectable lap time. If your driving preferences suit a softer rear, who am I to judge?
The Hankook RS2 is a great tire. I have the S1EVO (235/40/18) and they were great. I may try the better RS2 next season
11-23-2008, 10:25 PM
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11-24-2008, 07:06 AM
#23
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11-29-2008, 07:49 PM
#26
most drivers come away from track day saying- `how did I survive this long? I didnt know anything about proper driving!`
11-30-2008, 08:27 AM
#28
Senior Moderator
11-30-2008, 09:55 AM
#29
If there are instructors available to ride with you- take one!!!
Use different ones each session to get different perspective and teaching style
Its amazing how much SMOOTHER and Faster you get with someone right there helping you see the brake-turn in and exit points to each corner
What you thought was 100% effort and performance was really less than 70
Everyone get to the trackday. Stock is fine, Mods are fine
Noobs always start in the noob group so no crazy fast people on course at the same time. With demostrated skill, you move to the faster groups in next days you attend.
Its addictive- and all you have to say is: Its cheaper than any ticket!!
I can quit any time I want......
must
find
money
for special super sticky track day tires hehehehe
Use different ones each session to get different perspective and teaching style
Its amazing how much SMOOTHER and Faster you get with someone right there helping you see the brake-turn in and exit points to each corner
What you thought was 100% effort and performance was really less than 70
Everyone get to the trackday. Stock is fine, Mods are fine
Noobs always start in the noob group so no crazy fast people on course at the same time. With demostrated skill, you move to the faster groups in next days you attend.
Its addictive- and all you have to say is: Its cheaper than any ticket!!
I can quit any time I want......
must
find
money
for special super sticky track day tires hehehehe
12-02-2008, 01:14 PM
#32
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forgot to mention...
The dollar issues towards getting yourself to a track day event!
NASA annual membership fee is $44 bucks(?)
(includes annual subscription to Grassroots Magazine!)
Per track day event is around $150ish (you can goto as many/little as you'd like within your region).
For NASA HPDE Group 1, this gets you four 20-minute sessions with an instructor.
You do need a helmet (I paid $170 for mine..)
and that's about it for a newbie (me) in a street car.
The dollar issues towards getting yourself to a track day event!
NASA annual membership fee is $44 bucks(?)
(includes annual subscription to Grassroots Magazine!)
Per track day event is around $150ish (you can goto as many/little as you'd like within your region).
For NASA HPDE Group 1, this gets you four 20-minute sessions with an instructor.
You do need a helmet (I paid $170 for mine..)
and that's about it for a newbie (me) in a street car.
12-04-2008, 04:12 PM
#34
Senior Moderator
forgot to mention...
The dollar issues towards getting yourself to a track day event!
NASA annual membership fee is $44 bucks(?)
(includes annual subscription to Grassroots Magazine!)
Per track day event is around $150ish (you can goto as many/little as you'd like within your region).
For NASA HPDE Group 1, this gets you four 20-minute sessions with an instructor.
You do need a helmet (I paid $170 for mine..)
and that's about it for a newbie (me) in a street car.
The dollar issues towards getting yourself to a track day event!
NASA annual membership fee is $44 bucks(?)
(includes annual subscription to Grassroots Magazine!)
Per track day event is around $150ish (you can goto as many/little as you'd like within your region).
For NASA HPDE Group 1, this gets you four 20-minute sessions with an instructor.
You do need a helmet (I paid $170 for mine..)
and that's about it for a newbie (me) in a street car.
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