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The engine stalled while driving last night and car will not start again...
Checked timing belt and is good. Ignition switch work I think as starter is rotating. But not even hint of trying to start. I do not hear fuel pump at all. As I understand beside fuel pump alone some relay is there that can go bad. I was driving past night at 75mph and all was good and in split second bang engine completely stop working.
I have codes "p1362 tdc sensor no signal" and "p0336 crankshaft position sensor a circuit range/perfomance" . My guess first code trigger second and our limp mode at car is shut everything down and you get Uber to go home and towing service to bring car. Why TL 2g do not have limp mode like other Acura/Hondas.
I guess Acura actually calls it "Camshaft position sensor" and TDC 1 and 2 are two parts of it.
bbsitum,
That S**KS.
Sounds like the Crankshaft and/or TDC sensors is gone. Both are a pain to replace. You need to remove the harmonic balancer, timing belt, and timing covers etc to get to the sensor pickup. There is a resistance measurement you make to check the sensors. Location of the sensors is what makes this a pain. The top dead center sensors are located behind the front inner camshaft cover. The crankshaft sensor is located behind the crankshaft pulley near the oil pump.
If your fuel pump is out you would probably get a P0627 code for a fuel pump open circuit. However the relay you are talking about is the main relay. Here was a thread from a few days ago: https://acurazine.com/forums/2g-tl-p...-think-998850/
It is question if car stalled because of these 2 codes or fuel pump stop working. Will fix codes and go from there. However, before the car stalled I didn't feel any poor performance from engine.
Btw when car was out at hgw 10 in north metro somebody take off convex mirrors that I glued on my side mirrors. Two of them cost like 7$. When I'm done with car will report this to police. Imagine idiot stop in mid of night at hgw under cameras and look what can take off my car. It happened at same place where I get ticket for speeding last year. Cop followed me for 5 miles till catch me at downhill going 78mph where is speed limit 65+10. He didn't stop me then followed me for miles till place where speed limit change from 65 to 55 but I slowed there and then he turned stop lights on. I was thinking some maniac followed me. At driver side criminal wasn't capable take conwex mirror of than toke entire mirror.
Strange about your mirrors. No accounting for people.
If you have someone that can turn the key you can listen in the trunk for the fuel pump. You don't need to turn the key to the start position just the position before start and the pump should come on for a second. If it doesn't then you can check the relay, assuming you have the service manual, you could also carefully connect 12v directly to the fuel pump connector in the trunk. If the pump doesn't come on then there is a problem between the ignition switch and the pump, which would include the relay. Still think you need to check the TDC and CK sensors. The manual should state the resistance expected in a good sensor.
I will replace the camshaft position sensor. One thing confuses me. I know need to take both upper covers off. At rear side to put battery clamp to hold belt adjuster. But here is problem in step 4
--- Loosen the idler pulley bolt about five or six turns, then remove the timing belt from the front camshaft pulley. ---- . But how much I see in order to do it I need to remove the lower cover too, that one that go around crankshaft. It is than three times more work.
Just saw at this video at 1:00 there is removable plug that will allow me to lose that bolt. Otherwise, nice video for replacing timing belt. Removed it because it is blocked for out of youtube.
I will check around for a picture but if I remember correctly the CK sensor wraps around a metal edge that surrounds the CK and is the wire has a few rubber pads that are captured in the edge and the lower plastic cover.
From watching that video I even understand how loosening that pulley will make space for taking belt off. Actually there is empty space around bolt so will allow for movement of pulley to take belt off. Definitely wort try to do this. Will order brand new one cms. Was today at u-pull but come to idea that do not want do it twice so didn't bring used cms with me. Had huge problem to take belt off, didn't know about that bolt at idler pulley. Did try to return timing belt on. Impossible again without idler pulley. If will need to replace crankshaft sensor can do it like separate job. If that do not work will replace fuel pump relay than fuel pump.
Strange about your mirrors. No accounting for people.
Still think you need to check the TDC and CK sensors. The manual should state the resistance expected in a good sensor.
Good call. Will do it. Will check for resistance and continuity at TDC.
the problem this guy had wasn't the camshaft sensor; it was the amount of endplay that that camshaft had. the service manual states to inspect the end play; if it's too much replace the camshaft thrust cover, and if it's still too much then the camshaft.
long story short; replacing the sensor may not be the problem; check these other things to see if you are experiencing issues with the mechanical relationship between the camshaft and the sensor; instead of the sensors electrical signal response.
Bbsitum,
Whitetiger5 gave you a good suggestion for the camshaft to measure the end play. Camshaft End Play measurement
You also stated that the you had DTC p0336 which is related to the crankshaft sensor reading. It could have been triggered by the camshaft warning I don't if one could cause the other or which would come first. Maybe someone else here knows.
Removed upper front cover of timing belt and belt do not look good.
Put 17mm socket at camshaft pulley bolt to try to turn engine. It went ok but after I stopped, after turning engine probably only for 40 degree or so this is how belt looked.
There is huge slack behind between pulley and belt. The belt is not broken, I was capable of turning the engine but it looks like the belt is loose. What is ziners opinion? What is this?
O I know what it is. Because I tried to turn the belt counterclockwise for a moment it bunches up. It can be done at crankshaft but not at camshaft. I did a couple movements in the clock direction, every for say 15 degrees, but tried go back like 10 degree and it can't be done at camshaft. Still, I have a problem with the timing belt that looks bad in photo 1. Look like some pulley is stuck.
Wow. It looks like the belt has melted. With the car not starting it probably skipped a tooth or two with the slack you mentioned. Just a guess (obviously) I would check the tensioner it is probably stuck, it should not be loose and the position of the pulley should not change so check the tensioner first. Mine was very difficult to get lined up and the belt was tight when the tensioner was released (that was a pain as it partially released and trapped and bent the pin holding it in).
Well went down and have same problem after turning belt in clockwise direction. It seems there is slack in timing belt and it touch somewhere and most likely made dirty surface of camshaft and crankshaft sensors.
Wow. It looks like the belt has melted. With the car not starting it probably skipped a tooth or two with the slack you mentioned. Just a guess (obviously) I would check the tensioner it is probably stuck, it should not be loose and the position of the pulley should not change so check the tensioner first. Mine was very difficult to get lined up and the belt was tight when the tensioner was released (that was a pain as it partially released and trapped and bent the pin holding it in).
So that belt should be replaced? At the age of car and 303k miles probably I should get full set with water pump and pulleys? Btw It is still possible that car is not starting because of bad camshaft position sensor but I discovered slack too. That is strange, that slack.
At Sunday I was at U-pull and tried to get Camshaft position sensor at Acura tl there. When I turned the wrench counterclockwise at pulley bolt actually the pulley bolt opened itself. Didn't any slack show. How does this slack even happen? I guess the belt extended?
At this point I still always think that CMS is bad but in process I discovered that belt is bad too. It should not be so as I replaced belt 80k go. https://acurazine.com/forums/second-...eplace-963321/ . Actually, in post #14 I said something was smoking. Look now timing belt was smoking for minute or so and I'm driving with that slack for 80K. Only I discovered it now. Can be so too.
@bbsitum You're not going to know until you get the slack removed from timing belt, and inspect the timing of the engine by turning it slowly by hand and observing timing marks (removing spark plugs will help here). I would expect the worst based off your previous observations.
It appears that your timing belt tensioner has failed; and when this happens there should be a great deal of noise indicating that the belt has slack in it; did you observe this noise? there are plenty of videos on youtube with regard to this.
If you get the covers off and determine the tensioner has failed you may want to buy an inexpensive replacement to get the tension back in the belt and check compression.
Then: If your timing and compression is still good; move forward with a timing belt replacement: include pulleys, tensioner and waterpump if never done before.
@bbsitum You're not going to know until you get the slack removed from timing belt, and inspect the timing of the engine by turning it slowly by hand and observing timing marks (removing spark plugs will help here). I would expect the worst based off your previous observations.
It appears that your timing belt tensioner has failed; and when this happens there should be a great deal of noise indicating that the belt has slack in it; did you observe this noise? there are plenty of videos on youtube with regard to this.
If you get the covers off and determine the tensioner has failed you may want to buy an inexpensive replacement to get the tension back in the belt and check compression.
Then: If your timing and compression is still good; move forward with a timing belt replacement: include pulleys, tensioner and water pump if never done before.
I didn't hear any noise. Just the engine shot down out of blue in mid of hgw. Tried to start it a dose time, even today and didn't hear any unusual noise. I guess slack get exposed when I slightly turned pulley counterclockwise. Will take at minimum another top cover to and try to spin engine till dead center. And will see from there. If looks bad, I probably will just give up at car. Served me well so far.
How are you so good at diagnosis? Are you pro mechanic? Well, if I would buy full kit and replaced everything back then I would not be in this mess today. Live and learn.
It appears that your timing belt tensioner has failed; and when this happens there should be a great deal of noise indicating that the belt has slack in it; did you observe this noise? there are plenty of videos on youtube with regard to this.
This is a very shady area. How look now tensioner did fail but it held with power of tooths. Will check youtube videos definitely. When it failed I was at hgw, listen to music and drank a few so do not know exactly about noise. However, every attempt to start I didn't hear any noise.
And at moment when the tensioner failed it smoked camshaft and crankshaft sensor had problem. Actually when I opened the hood when first stopped, I saw small smoke at side of timing belt. Possible it was much more smoke inside the timing cover. And engine temperature was high at that moment. I didn't drive long way till stop maybe 3 miles.
I didn't hear any noise. Just the engine shot down out of blue in mid of hgw. Tried to start it a dose time, even today and didn't hear any unusual noise. I guess slack get exposed when I slightly turned pulley counterclockwise. Will take at minimum another top cover to and try to spin engine till dead center. And will see from there. If looks bad, I probably will just give up at car. Served me well so far.
How are you so good at diagnosis? Are you pro mechanic? Well, if I would buy full kit and replaced everything back then I would not be in this mess today. Live and learn.
Appreciate the kinds words. It could have failed for anyone; even a new tensioner could fail it just has less chance of failing. hopefully that slack is due to what you say (turning counterclockwise).
I presume that as soon as the ECU determines that the frequency is off on any of these sensors; it will shut down the engine to prevent major damage; bent valves/new head needed as opposed to broken valves new engine needed.
inspecting the timing; and compression will tell us what we need to know for the next step.
My friend gives me one hour go very simple advice. Put engine to TDC. If all align, 2 camshaft and crankshaft I'm good to go. If even 2 tooths off is somewhere let car go. He has been flipping cars like a side job for decades. Buy, fix wat is wrong and sell.
Bbitsum,
The timing belt that is on there has been stretched, the heat alone would stretch the belt. Not sure I agree with your friend, but to each his own. If you are going to fix yours I would again recommend the tensioner and all the idler pulleys. The bearing on the pulleys could have gone bad first bound up and the belt melts on the top. Good luck.
^^^ My mistake. He said I'm good to go in sense of replacing timing belt and all other parts of system, pump, pulleys. Not in sense that car is good. I just read again what I wrote. LOL. When I get time will check TDC. If is ok will replace all timing belt stuff. If not, I will let the car go.
In this video at 1:05 it is said that timing belts that go bad can trigger camshaft and crankshaft code.
Yes a timing belt that is slipping or off can set off the those two codes. If money is not a concern I would replace them when you have everything apart. I would not use the any cheap no name sensor from China; many are made there but unknown cheap eBay or Amazon brands have proven not worth the time, in my opinion. OEM or Rockauto SMP has worked for me in the past Dealer pricing ~$250. Rockauto SMP about $80. Before I spent the cash to replace them I would check them out There should be a resistance value; I seem to remember about 2K ohms, but check to be sure I am right. Also the signal from these are a pulse, I believe they are magnetic pickups, you should be able to generate a pulse across the wires by quickly passing metal (not Aluminum) in front of the sensor and measuring voltage at the connector Do this after cleaning them, also since they should be magnetic a screwdriver, nut, or bolt should be attracted to them.
Bought camshaft position sensor from O'Reilly. Of course, I didn't install it. Those are reading of Ohms - Old 2,111KO (kiloohm) at two left and 2,056KO at two right prongs. New both 2,014KO. And yes, I will buy everything from Rockauto, if is Top dead center ok. I used Rockauto in the past.
Last one year or so when I would speed up at low speed I had some bump feeling from car. I thought it is from transmission acting and actually it is from loose timing belt as it look right now. But imagine if would not turn that belt slightly counterclockwise when checking would not figure out it is loose. Probably would blame at pulleys.
This problem gives me an opportunity to look more into the quality of timing belt sets. I read more into Aisin, Gates, Deyco. Before I would just buy whatsoever is in part store.
Looks like the camshaft sensor is okay based on the resistance readings. What did you find out about the timing belt quality. I believe the set I bought last was Gates.
^^^ At Hondas forums they agree that we should go AISIN from rock auto. Will go that route if will see that timing is not off. Probably will check at weekend.
Timing is ok. Will order AISIN set. Turned engine I think 10 circles and timing at both cams is same. Crankshaft is on point how much I see. There is like a small notch left and right from pointer at plastic cover at same distance from pointer around 3/8 at each side. Most likely one of two pulleys is stuck. And it started when 3 weeks ago I jumped curb to avoid some racoon at street. I heard right after some noise from the passenger side of engine. The noise calmed after a few days but it looks like the problem is back.
Btw is it necessary to support engine with jack at oil pan if I remove engine mount? I mean 3 others are there and the car is not moving. Because I will have to lift the car to remove the tire and maybe lift more to squeeze in and then lower it to work easier. How would keep control of jack at pan all time.
If you lift the car with a jack you should be placing a jack stand underneath before you get under the car. I have seen jacks loose hydraulic pressure and come done very quickly. Never rely on a jack only only when you are under a vehicle. Changing a tire is one thing, working underneath is another. I would use a jack stand to achieve the height you want and then use the jack, with a piece of wood under the oil pan. Using the jack you will be able to have some movement of the engine up and down to help in reaching some bolts etc.
Timing is ok. Will order AISIN set. Turned engine I think 10 circles and timing at both cams is same. Crankshaft is on point how much I see. There is like a small notch left and right from pointer at plastic cover at same distance from pointer around 3/8 at each side. Most likely one of two pulleys is stuck. And it started when 3 weeks ago I jumped curb to avoid some racoon at street. I heard right after some noise from the passenger side of engine. The noise calmed after a few days but it looks like the problem is back.
Btw is it necessary to support engine with jack at oil pan if I remove engine mount? I mean 3 others are there and the car is not moving. Because I will have to lift the car to remove the tire and maybe lift more to squeeze in and then lower it to work easier. How would keep control of jack at pan all time.
I think that the purpose of using the jack to support the engine underneath is to prevent damaging the other mounts; specifically the less bulky transmission mounts.
How I see right now one of the two idler pulleys is stuck. Likely one at tensioner side. The belt melted and smoke showed up inside the timing belt case. I saw when I stopped and lifted the hood a small amount of smoke in that area. Smoke omitted cam and cranks sensors to work and computer stopped car. I tried to start a couple times but the codes are still there and the car cannot start. Probably for the car to start I will have to erase code. I have code reader and can do it.
06-04-2022, 08:53 PM
