Jey77

Hey guys, long time lurker and I absolutely love this place. I need your help in assessing a situation i'm currently going through. I've got an appointment on Tuesday at the Acura dealership to look at what the head mechanic is calling a cracked block on my car and wanted a bit of knowledge about it beforehand. I took it to the dealership initially because the car was overheating almost immediately whenever the car was turned on. White/bluish smoke was present each time. I'm the originally owner and the car has 93k miles with impeccable service records up to date. I drive the vehicle responsibly and has been used for daily commute between work and school. I've never had any sort of aftermarket modifications done on the vehicle and do not beat on the car. I'm not wealthy so I try to take care of my possessions.

1. What kind of costs are typical of repairing such a thing on our vehicles?

2. The mechanic mentioned a block replacement. What does that even mean? What part of the engine is to be replaced? How expensive would this be?

3. How and where exactly does the crack need to be to warrant the condition my car is in right now? He mentioned two cracks.


Those are the only questions I have at the moment but if any of you can shine some light on the matter at hand i'd truly appreciate it. Thanks in advance.

richardparker

iTrader: (7)

You might make out better picking up a whole used motor and using that one. Also have the engined swaped at a smaller place.
You can get used motor for 5-600 and I've heard 5-600 to install.
I couldn't amagine what acura would charge you for labor to swap your block out.
Probally more than getting a used engine and installed.
Then price of the block.Not to mention 300-400 in gaskets,seals,rings,bearings etc.

01tl4tl

I agree--auto recycler (junkyards) for a replacement used engine,
they will have a few shop names to suggest for the install--people who buy from them and do a good job
The `block` is everything below the cylinder heads-- its the `case` that holds all the moving parts~
but a severe overheat hurts the heads too- blows the head gaskets-warps the aluminum heads,,,expensive

replace engine with used unit is going to be wayyyyyy cheaper in the long run
dont need dealer on this job--a place that does engine swaps will be perfect
ck phone book-penneysaver ads--and the auto recyler guys

what probably happened was your coolant went bad, or water pump failed, or a leak in the system occured--rock in radiator will do it and you would never know!

You never saw coolant on the floor at home or parking lot?

something caused it to run full redline hot many times
Is that correct ?

How long since it ran its normal 2 ticks below halfway on the guage?
how many times/miles driven from then till now?

You kept driving it,,maybe adding water to radiator every day? and res bottle?--

NOTE to all: Have to make sure the small hose is attached inside the res bottle cap or the system doesnt transfer fluid

eventually it blew at least 1 head gasket,,there is one for each set of 3 cylinders.
Then it continued getting overheated as you kept driving it,
as the engine block was not getting coolant thru it at the right temp and pressure--eventually it creates a heat stress crack

This may have occured near the rear motor mount (total guess) as another car had similar problem recently and found a crack there

the smoke you see is mostly coolant getting into a cylinder(s) from blown head gasket- coolant is reacting to heat in exhaust as it goes thru
blue smoke is oil,, white is coolant
the system pressurizes with use- shut it off and that pressure is pushing/leaking fluid into the cylinders-- past that break in the head gasket

Keep driving it like that and eventually it will die from one thing or another!!

must be a good backstory to an otherwise maintained car to have this issue
what year is your car?

01tl4tl

often you get cross transfer of coolant and oil intermixing thru the break in head gasket=
ruins oil and potential to hydrolock the engine

Jey77

The car has been very well maintained with every check up done at the local Acura dealership here from day 1. That's whats got me so upset... with the amount of money i've spent on always keeping up with service I just didn't expect this kind of thing to happen. The vehicle is a 2003 base model. I have to be awake in a few hours for work and gonna turn in for the night but i'll check those suggestions for a possible engine replacement by means of an alternate source in the afternoon. If you fellas don't mind, i'd appreciate your advice and feedback throughout this process. Have a good night.

totaledTL

I would ask for goodwill help, given that you've had it maintained regularly at the dealership. It doesn't hurt anything to ask. How long have you had it?

swalch@stanford.edu

Actually, the price of the block is less than I would have thought.

block assy., cylinder (dot)
(origin: usa; emission: ka) info $717.11 $573.69 20% 001

It could be a possibility if the heads are still good.

A used engine would still likely be cheaper.

totaledTL

Would be a lot of labor cost involved.

01tl4tl

to remove every single part from a cracked block to clean -measure-inspect and install in different block== would be many many hours at $100+ per hour, and extra damaged parts will always be found inside on an extreme overheat like this car

for lets say for $750 you can pick up a decent engine, install a timing belt-water pump new hoses thermostat etc while its sitting on the bench and easy to work on, thats 400-500 in parts, then install in the car and drive worry free!!

have the radiator removed, professional dismantled and cleaned at a radiator shop- tested for leaks.
may be cheaper-more effective to replace with new or rebuilt unit if damage from rock caused the original problem

NEED to know what caused the problem and fix it for sure

We are here to help you thru the process--it gives some of us pleasure to offer our experience and advice

Jey77

hey guys I just got back from the dealership with some news. The head mechanic is telling me the cracks are in the cylinder wall and simply inserting a "sleeve" will not fix it. Told me a replacement "short block" is recommended. They quoted me a price of $3200 including labor plus a loaner vehicle. The price is quite high and i've asked the service manager for some help. Hopefully they'll at least bring the price down by half in which case i'll go ahead with the offer.

I didn't mention it before but is it possible my engine experienced this problem due to a timing belt failure? I was due for a timing belt replacement before this happened but was holding off for a couple of more months. Oh and most importantly, why would cracks that severe appear in the cylinder wall?


@totaledTL: I've had the vehicle since early 2004. I'm the only owner the car has ever had.

I really appreciate the advice and support guys.

swalch@stanford.edu

The price for a rebuilt short block plus labor to install seems quite reasonable.

The cracks in the cylinder wall probably are a result of overheating. It looks like you lost coolant some how.

Jey77

Is it normal I didn't have any warning signs before this happened?

swalch@stanford.edu

You mentioned seeing a puddle of coolant under the car before it overheated.

It could have been as simple as a cracked radiator hose, but when an engine
overheats especially an aluminum one it can do a lot of damage.

Jey77

I should of clarified about the warning signs. What are the early signs of a cylinder wall cracking. From what I understand, mechanics can identify a problem by reading a code from a check engine light and i'm wondering if there exists a system of preventive care specifically targeted for this.

swalch@stanford.edu

There is certainly no check engine light code for an internal engine failure.

The warning comes from the engine temperature gauge. When it says the engine is running hot it is necessary to stop the car and figure out what is wrong. I imagine the cracks in the block happened quite suddenly probably from air pockets in the coolant alternately letting the block get locally hot and then having coolant touch the hot spots.

If you had the dealership do all the maintenance and the problem turns out to be a cooling system problem such as a bad hose etc. then you might have a case that they are partially to blame if they didn't warn you of needed repairs.

Jey77

I'll keep the last tidbit of information about the hoses in mind when I visit the dealership again tomorrow morning. I was rummaging through my service records and noticed they actually have check offs for checking hoses and drive belts for damages. I've had a marking of Satisfactory for every service record in my possession. Hopefully a damaged hose is found so I can have them liable to a certain degree. Thanks this really helped.

01tl4tl

the timing belt water pump job is due at 7 years or 105kmiles whichever first
If vehicles is operated in severe service, short trips, hot areas, that drops to 60kmiles
Acura has their out right there

those items `ckd off as ok` on the invoice are such a joke

the pegged temp guage- 2.5 foot puddle!! under the car,, were your warning `codes`
Driving after seeing the puddle was the really bad part

It takes SEVERE overheating to crack a cylinder liner! as in not something I have seen much in my life

a short block is a new engine lower case with new/rebuilt parts installed from the crankshaft to the pistons- new cyl liners, rings etc
YOUR cyl heads- assuming they somehow escaped damage while the block took the hit (not likely) would be reused,,,
or replaced with rebuilt units-- because yours are warped beyond fixable limits
Ck how much for a rebuilt set of heads (2)

01tl4tl

anything less than all 10s on the surveys is a failing grade to corp

01tl4tl

you may be able to get a full shortblock or longblock (heads included) from places like orieilly (kragen)
if you want to pay that much to keep the car running

1500-2000 for a junkyard motor all freshened up to go another 100kmiles easily seems worth it
3500 for a motor that will outlast the car by many years= is hard for me to suggest

Jey77

The most the car moved after seeing the puddle was to put it back in neutral to let it roll back in the parking space. I know very little about cars but I knew it would be a bad idea to try and drive it. I've been doing research online and it seems you're absolutely right. It does take quite a bit of stress to create a crack in the cylinder liner. It just baffles me even more as to how it could have happened. I sure hope the the head mechanic can offer some sort of explanation. I'm seeing him in the afternoon during my lunch break so i'll get back to you guys on the matter. Have a good night fellas and I appreciate the input today.

fsttyms1

There is no way to detect for a cracked block from reading for codes (until its to late and is triggering a different code for a issue that the crack is causing) The problem most likely started from a overheating that you didnt notice. It only takes 1 time.


Find a USED lower mileage motor and have a shop install it. This type of thing isnt typical of these motors.

swalch@stanford.edu

An example of a used engine from e-bay motors

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/01-03...#ht_2967wt_980

totaledTL

If you get a replcmt. engine- or that one repaired for that matter- keep CLOSE tabs on the temp. gauge, coolant level, & oil level for a while after it's turned over to you. If you have another problem take it back as soon as you notice it.

01tl4tl

I would replace the water pump- timing belt thermostat etc on a used engine so you can drive worry free

some seafoam thru the first oil change wont hurt either- to absorb moisture and remove crud,,run a week or 2 and do oil change again
Moisture gets inside engines that sit and corrode important parts

01tl4tl

Jey have the fan temp sensor replaced too- it may have failed and no cooling fan operation would lead to your issues
Something caused this to happen - its critical that problem be resolved

In years past,, Ive had similar cars in the shop- customer didnt want to pay for radiator to be cleaned out when head gasket blew...ok,, sign this disclaimer of warranty,,,
it wont be long and we will be doing the entire engine in your car soon

01tl4tl

a total failure of thermostat will cause shutdown of coolant flow thru the engine to radiator for cooling
that would cause your problem too..in minutes!

Im throwing out ideas of things to ck as they come to mind

Jey77

Sorry I haven't gotten back to you guys in a couple days. I've had to pick up an extra couple shifts at work to help fund this problem. I received the news a couple days ago and it was indeed a failure of the thermostat that resulted in the engine super heating causing the cylinder walls to crack. The head mechanic told me the same thing you told me above. With the thermostat dead, all it takes is a few minutes for something like this to happen. That's not all. He also firmly believes that before the incident the cylinder walls may have already had smaller cracks in there. It seems this was inevitable and the thermostat failing just acted as a catalyst for it.

I did get a chance to talk to the regional manager about costs. Just got word tonight and Acura is willing to split the costs with me 60/40 where they take the majority. The initial price quote of 3200 has jumped up close to 3600 due to more parts needing to be replaced. I think i'm gonna jump on this deal seeing as i'm only gonna be paying about 1440. Thoughts?

Btw, if a thermostat were to fail, would it set off my check engine light? I'm gonna be picking up an itemized list in a couple days but I was wondering if you guys could tell me the definitive parts that will need to be replaced given that i'll need a new "short block". Just wanted something to compare with when I get that list. Thanks for your time guys.

Sperry

iTrader: (1)

60/40 sounds like a good deal. Way better than a used engine.

totaledTL

^ x2

swalch@stanford.edu

They are giving you a very good deal.

As to parts needed. A gasket set, timing belt components and water pump, a new thermostat, all water hoses, check the radiator, surface the heads. Also check the motor mounts. That's most of it.

01tl4tl

need to know if the heads were damaged-warped cracked etc before a final decision can be made
if they are messed up you may as well get a used engine and save money
How many more years do you plan to keep the TL?

Based on the techs concern of other cracks preexisting etc,,indicates potential long term overheating from bad thermostat-- without the guage warning you

I really think you are looking at trouble the farther you will dig into this engine hoping for usable parts

If this car were at my shop (back in the day),,I would wonder if its painted yellow too~

01tl4tl

easy $1000 in `extra parts` for sure- the 105 kit yadayada,,, just to get it in the car!

While fixing your engine sounds like a good idea--its not

Jey77

I plan on actively using the vehicle for the next 3 years and then i'll probably end up giving the car to my younger brother. Just got off the phone with the head mechanic and it seems the cylinder heads were damaged as well and will need replacing. Good news is the cost of the cylinder heads were already included in the approximated price of 3600 which means it looks like 1440 is gonna be the damage to my wallet.

Is it normal I never got a check engine light from the thermostat malfunctioning?

01tl4tl

there is no sensor to warn of thermostat failure-they only sign would be a change in temp needle from its normal 2 clicks below half,,or the res bottle kept getting low
or fan operation changed

bad thermostat traps hot water in engine if stuck closed -tricks temp sensor in rad...

93kmiles on car--what year? original coolant?
that along with your using acura service, probably got the goodwill help for you

This should encourage others to change coolant now-
BEFORE winter when its really needed
aprox 5 years and it starts to lose ability to perform it job--acura says 7 but.....severe duty may reduce lifespan..
Ever operate the vehicle on Earth, Sir?. thats severe duty!!

Congrats on the assist~

I had misread post with price--1500 out the door with new heads and short block equals a new engine essentially!!
only the external bolt ons are the same part from your engine
that will have new plugs and timing belt-wp etc, so its good to go many years,,then it really is a deal you can safely pass down the lineage

If it all works out- write a few letters, corp and dealer- thanking them.
along with the all 10s on the surveys,, do all their surveys-the card, online, phone,,
Good comment cards are a managers uplifting moment in an otherwise difficult job, and do get seen and discussed first by corp then given to dealers- shared at weekly shop meetings
Name especially helpful people--it goes towards their bonus checks~

Notice shop may have a few great letters posted on the wall.. Shop Pride

Jey77

The car is a 2003 and I believe the coolant was changed at one time or another. I've gotta look through my service records but i'm fairly confident it was changed during a periodical check up.

I'll definitely be leaving a positive feedback once this is over. I actually just got back from the dealership to sign off on a few documents and found out they're even giving me a loaner vehicle free of charge until I get my car back!!

Thanks for assist fellas.

01tl4tl

the book doesnt call for coolant until 7/105 with timing belt/water pump, so no reason to think it was ever done before then
dealer barely sells the needed things like brake fluid flush--be sure thats done yearly!
may have been done at 60 ..maybe

dudeinaTL

iTrader: (1)

$1440? Not too bad considering your 105k service was coming up (and it sounds like you would've gotten it done at an Acura dealership).

01tl4tl

make sure they are replacing the water pump-timing belt and all its pullies/rollers with the new `shortblock`--that term means the lower case and its INTERNALS- not external like pump and drive bits like alternator, intake manifold - cylinder heads...
(but you are getting heads too- so really its a `long block`)

typically a smart place would use new wp (warranty would require it)--its faster to install new than try to swap parts over- but they may not include the tensioners etc
Get an exact parts list--
it sounds like a good tech is on the project, just be sure they are doing above and beyond normal as the car is staying in the family

Let the tech know that part,,car is staying in family- you want no future problems--do it now and do it right
Drop by with donuts as thanks ahead of time--that goes a long way~

smartypants

Hi Jey :

This is a great deal considering your engine is well and truly pooched. With the timing belt et al running around $1200 you're not that bad off. I would ask if the engine is new or rebuilt ? If it's rebuilt (or even new just to be clear) ask if the timing belt, tensioner and water pump come new as part the replacement engine.

If yes, your gold !

smartypants.

P.S. this is another case of "super maintaining" not realizing the perceived benefits, other than to the stealership.