jibril_s

I have come across a few sites and watched a lot of youtube videos today explaining how a water to hydrogen generator works and how it can be adapted to a car. There are a few companies that are building the devices now. One company is selling the ready made unit for $700 (greenfuellab.com) I know it sounds to good to be true but after watching so many people make their own generators it seems to make sense. I see how flammable hydrogen can be an how it can be used for combustion. Any real mechanics or any one else would like to weigh in on this. I dont want to build my own but I might just drop the $700 if I don't come to my senses first.

Megatron

Do you believe that cell phone radiation can pop popcorn also?

Seriously though... don't you think if this really worked that at least one of the big automakers would have done it by now?

Just looking at it from a purely scientific point of view, the law of conservation of energy states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed... it can only change forms. Since you are starting with normal water and NOT pre-made hydrogen (in which somebody else has put in the energy required to make the hydrogen), YOU must put energy into the water to break it up into its hydrogen and oxygen components. Where does that energy come from?? I assume it's from the battery and alternator, which uses the current to break apart the water molecules. There is some measurable amount of energy required to make a certain amount of hydrogen. Where does that energy come from? Ultimately, it comes from the gas you burn. Anyhow, the absolute MOST energy you can get back from the Hydrogen gas you created is the same amount of energy you put in to make it in the first place (because of the conservation law)... but inevitably, it's always less because of inefficieny losses (mostly heat) in the conversions to gas and back to water. So as you see... there is NO WAY that this will work. It would defy the laws of physics. Remember the cold fusion fiasco a while ago?

To compare... hybrid cars also cannot create nor destroy energy. The energy going into the hybrid battery pack must come from the gas as well, but it gets a lot of its energy from the slowing down of the vehicle, which is normally wasted heat energy dissipated by the brakes.

Hope this makes sense... Save your money!

jibril_s

I do understand what you are saying. However from what I have found, a car's combustion system is very inefficient. About 25% of the gas is actually used to power the vehicle. The rest is emitted as polution. The idea is the hydygen that is released from the electrolysisis process is more combustible than gasoline. So only a small amount of hydrogen is needed to fire a piston. True the energy to start the process comes from the alternator. So I am not sure of the long term affects on my alternator from this. The only other thing to be aware of is the effect of pumping hydrogen into the intake of your car. It would have to be hooked up with a O2 sensor enhancer from what I have read. If you don't then the computer will use more fuel because of the inaccurate fuel oxygen mixture in the engine.

Anyhow, I've seen many videos of people making their own hydrogen gernerators. The guy that supposedly came up with the original idea of running a car purely off of hydrogen was murdered. The guy was filmed by a British film crew before he died. He said the Saudi's offerer him a billion dollars to stop his work, but he didn't. There are plenty of videos on youtube of people here and in other countries using hydrogen. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_j7d-FJ7TQk I don't think car or oil companies would want this technology in the mainstream. It would destroy them.

I found a place in Cape Coral FL that sells the devices for about $300. They are about an 8 hour drive from me. So I will be going there soon. I will try to video the installation and keep you posted.

jibril_s

Chech this news clip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVf8mdZCGLk

derrick

Turning water to hydrogen + oxygen = hydrolysis. That is also another 'inefficient' system. And the carnot cycle (how to improve the 'efficiency' of an engine as described by thermodynamics) can't get much more efficient than what they're doing right now without it costing more than fueling it. (ie lose-lose situtation)

I wouldn't waste your $700. If it was 'worth' it, I'm sure the Germans / Japanese / US auto would have installed it in their cars since they would have economy of scale to bring down to way less than $700 per car.

Manapuaman

iTrader: (2)

I say go for it get it installed and then tell us if you save any money at the pump. What is the most you will lose? $300 and the gas to drive 8 hours away. I do hope it works that would be awesome.

LukeaTron

There was a large thread on this same topic that mysteriously disappeared right after I posted a long missive about the first law of thermodynamics and why you will never gain anything from one of these setups. I'm not going to bother explaining all of that again but rest assured you are not gaining any free energy. All you're doing is changing the from of potential energy (gas -> combustion -> engine turning -> alternator turning -> hydrogen generator working -> hydrogen combustion -> engine turning...). At each transformation you are losing some energy since it will never be 100% efficient. You will never get out more than you put in. It's more efficient to just burn the gas and not introduce a bunch of parasitic loss for no useful reason.

I'm starting to wonder if the people that constantly bring this up aren't payed shills. They universally have very low post counts and never talk about anything else.

CLsuperhero

http://world.honda.com/news/2008/408...t-FCX-Clarity/

hydrogen works... I don't know about this thing turning pure water into energy though. It looks like a can with a positive and negative wire. I don't see it doing anything. What about a flux capacitor?

6MTUA5

iTrader: (2)

kabota

there was already a thread on this. and a link to an engineering student that did some thermodynamic calculations. Most of these claim that you get more enegry out of the system than can evenly be obtained.

Bearcat94

If you can answer these questions, maybe you're on to something:

Assuming enough (any?) H2 is generated to matter, how do you:

- Control the place the H2 ignites?

- Control the moment the H2 combusts?

- i.e. How do you control "pre-detonation"?

- Control the amount of H2 generated, especially in relation to the amount of "extra" Oxygen available for combustion at that moment, in that cylinder?

- Control the insertion of "extra" Oxygen to combust BOTH the gasoline and the H2?

- Alter the F/A maps so that timing and/or gasoline injection is not altered upon the introduction of the "extra" 02 needed to combust the H2? Or do you *assume* that the H2 combusts preferentially and raw gasoline is spilled into the exhaust.

Bottom line - you don't *just* throw more fuel (gas, H2, whatever) into an engine to generate power. If that's all it took, we could all have high output engines just by adding bigger injectors. The fuel load has to be balanced with oxygen, timing, etc. Do your Hydrogen generators do that?


Here is the kicker: If this were "real science" you should be able to find at least one peer-reviewed article in the scientific press. Have you ever seen a reference to such an article?


An alternative explanation for the current popularity of such devices might be that high gas prices have created an opportunity for scammers to sell a product that the general public would find compelling if it actually worked.

jibril_s

I assure you I'm no shill, fraud or spammer. Sorry if I dont contribute like I should. (I do it when I need to. Like when my AC broke and posted repair pics)

I just came across this friday and I did a google search on the acurazine site for the topic before I posted it and I got nothing. So I decided to bring it up. It's just I have spent the last 15 hours over the course of this weekend watching youtube videos and reading up on this. I have the concept of how it works but the scientific data I dont have.

Ima spend the money on it. And I will post what I find. The site I mentioned earlier is way too much money ($700) for me to spend. But the $300 from the company here in florida will work. All I know is there gotta be something too it for so much info to be out there on it. Also I see why it wont be widely accepted because of the skeptics. The strangest thing is I haven't come across anyone or any video (and I watched over 100 videos) saying I bought this and it doesn't work. The ebay guys even have good very high positive feedback.......So thats what really sold me. If it doesn't work, Believe ME I will let the whole world know!!!

Bearcat94

It's not about "skeptics". Hydrogen Fuel Cell Technology is the real deal and, IMHO, the most likely technology to supplant gasoline/oil as the primary transportation energy source in the future.

The problems are:

1. Electrolysis (which is what we are talking about here) is ~35% effecient on an INDUSTRIAL scale. How does a little generator in a little car make enough H2 to matter?

2. How do you control fuel-load, oxygen ratio's and the car's ECU Fuel maps and timing to CONTROL the hydrogen burn (assuming you generate enough (a concentration of ~4.3%) to burn)?

3. If simple, useful, safe technology exists why isn't it reported and tested scientifically? Instead what you see are a lot of suspect claims from fly-by-night outfits, preying on public misconceptions, high gas prices and precious little science. (Sorry, I don't buy into giant cover ups and mass scale conspiracies.)

4. Those that claim they can use x amount of energy to create x+ (> 100%) amount of energy are violating the laws of physics. Period. You CANNOT end up with more energy than you start with. (Not saying the system you are considering claims this. Some do, some don't.)


It's your money. Good luck.

Science by InterWeb Forums and YouTube FTW!!

Gfaze

Check this article that came out a few months ago. This guy is onto something.

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/...d-messiah.html

paul.4900

There is a guy at I know that did it to his civic, it works and hes said he gets over 100 mpg, he is building my brother a 3 generator system for his 2004 dodge ram diesel, my brother is paying him 300 dollars for it, it his works i will be doing it too,

now the other questions about why hasnt the car builders built it on there own? come on guys, why would they?. For example, in charlotte nc for every gallon of gas that I buy, $4.00, $1.35 goes for highway tax, now i could be buying gas for $2.65 without the $1.35 tax but it would have to go towards "farm machinery" because they dont use the highways, but if caught you will be fined $10,000 for it, now where is NC gonna get money for the highway tax if everyone is using water, either the car companies will make these kind of cars and raise the price so high and then they will pay the state their tax wich will never happen. You can build a water motor/generator/car whatever in your garage and no one will care, but you cant patent it, the 3 ppl that have tried ended all dead and this is no conspiracy crap, its public record, and i think if I was the owner the a big oil company I would have done the same.

paul.4900

Now did you know that 1 acre of corn makes only 320-380 gallons of gas but 1 acre of sugar cane will make 800 gallons, and sugar cane waste is used to make more fuel, just something interesting i heard on the news

EL19

iTrader: (4)

Honda already has a Hydrogen powered car. Hydrogen is the simplest element and produces alot of energy when fused. The sun runs on Hydrogen & its been burning for almost 5 billion years! LOL...I'm not gona knock what the OP is talking about until I see the results. I say try it and report back to let us know if it works or not. Good luck.

Manapuaman

iTrader: (2)

have you tried it yet? Whats the verdict?

chaosnexstacy

DON'T DO IT. I researched it with a friend and everything sounds all fine and dandy but the amount of energy it takes to do it is ridiculous. Also if it were the greatest thing since sliced bread how come its not all over the news. How come all the car manufacturers aren't doing it, like the next Hybrid or something. Trust me it isn't worth the money you will not get anywhere near the claimed gas mileage at most you will get a few like 2 or 3. If you keep looking you can find info on the net about it. Sorry I don't have any of the links but I can try to find them.

jumbosizeme79

9 mpg going 55mph? :shakehead

etxxz

....bottom line:

It takes more energy to electrolyze water and produce Hydrogen than what you can get out of burning Hydrogen...i work for a fuel cell company and i'm tired of writing this on forums...you're basically using gas to run your engine, to turn your alternator to electrolyze water and plug that hydrogen into your engine....every step looses efficiency through heat and other losses...use some common sense. peeace.

c0v3rr1d3

iTrader: (4)

i love how people base their entire decision making process on youtube videos and ebay feedback ratings.... *sigh* What is this world coming to?

etxxz

^^ yeah i agree, but its funny how exited people get...gives a perspective on ways to make money as an engineer.
you my friend are a either ignorant or extremely uneducated...

#1 the honda car is a fuel cell car, it does not in ANY way ignite hydrogen. its called proton exchange.

#2 the sun is nuclear fusion of hydrogen into helium, sort of like a nuclear bomb but hydrogen, its not in any way igniting hydrogen either

google.com...geez

LukeaTron

^^^ Beat me to it. Heh.

fsttyms1

If it were that easy car manufacturers would be doing it. they are feeling the crunch. It would also be sold in every store out there.

01tl4tl

Wont it be funny if many of the product that are scoffed at, turn out to be ideas that are crushed by the auto makers---which are part of Big Oil--because they are happy with the way things are?
All the car makers have to do is meet the next CAFE standard- next one is 2012- 28mpg average---guess who was the advisory council on Americas Energy Policy-
buddies of Darth Cheneys oil industry~ past and future
google CAFE for details- its bs and why gen3 runs on 5-20 instead of 5-30 oil
They can make cars get way better mileage, but they dont have to. So why should they?
You will buy whats available- thats all they care---ohhh we get 30 mpg in a toyota!!!---it can get 50, but not the way we sell it to you!!!

They laughed at The Tucker in the 50s and crushed its production.
Now all cars have padded dash- seatbelts-safety glass-built in rollover protection, and some new cars have headlights that turn with the wheels! Just like a Tucker~
GM is another great- more recent example: 20 years ago they made 2000 Electric cars, marketed a few of them on a lease only basis, then recalled them all- would not allow you to buy out the lease!!! and- literally shredded them- (accidentally caught on TV travel program video by Huell Howser during a scrapyard visit)- and there were the cars all flattened and stacked, and run into the crusher and out as tiny bits of metal)
GM saying there was no market demand while 20,000 names were on a waiting list for 2000 cars...as they went on producing cars that get 20 mpg and selling them as fast as they can make them.
Fast forward in time-Toyota and honda saw the coming need for efficient electric and hybrid cars. Pruis could get way better mileage and DIYs have done so,,,toyota is giving up what they need to so far- then---when things get really bad....

Now GM is talking about a sporty electric car they will market in a year or 2.....the Volt

I am making a Waterworld type ships mast and sail for my TL~ hit the button, it pops up and take advantage of wind power on the freeway.

rob-2

Not so certain about this, in the 90's you could get a electric car from GM. Did about 150 miles to a charge, it no longer is available and Texaco owns a majority of the technology now after the program was scrapped.

It's not a conspiracy that business wants to protect it's profit. Right now electricity and water are very cheap and there is little tax in place. If we were to switch off oil our entire payment system that supports our infrastructure would have to be revamped.

There is an h20 car that has been developed in Japan, if we ever see it is another question.

Too many people are quick to claim cover up. Just follow the money, there doesn't need to be a cover up or conspiracy. Just enough profits to support a bad direction.

DC3328

iTrader: (22)

sbuswell

I agree. I call BS on the OP. BS.........BS.............BS

Station

those hydrogen devices dont use that much energy. 20 amps is average, and you can control the amount of heat the unit makes by adding/reducing the catalyst in the distilled water of the unit. they are illegal because of the oil companies. if we all had these on our cars they would lose so much money. same reason why car companies dont use them. there are so many better alternative fuels we could use but yet why do we still stick with fossil fuels? money. its all bs and i know ill get hated on by everyone saying it doesnt work because electrolysis of water takes to much energy but you can do it using a 9v batt, ive done it before so i dont see how it can really put that much strain on your alternator.

you can buy these kits on ebay for cheap so why doesnt someone buy one cheap there for 20 bucks and get a o2 sensor extender for 10 and turn the unit on for a full gas tank and tell us the results. if its sh** than we will all know, if it works than we can all start saving some cash because im f***ing tired of almost 5 a gallon. id say its worth the try. and i am going to. i got 1 gas tank to give it a shot, my car will be fine if it doesnt work and ill disguard the unit and be with these trash talkers but with experience to back it up. i just had surgery on my hand today and when i can use my hand ill install it and let all of you guys know.

-Brandon

01tl4tl

why dont YOU buy one and try

jibril_s

I am still going to do it. I dont have time to go to cape coral, fl to get it done so Ima do it myself. It's gonna be a few weeks when I have the cash. I've blowed more money elsewhere so it doesn't bother me. As soon as I get the funds I will be the official Acurazine guinea pig.

fsttyms1

Yea GM had one. They also were in rough times then as well. It cost them 100x more to make the car than they were getting out of it. They them selves admitted that they dropped the ball on that one and didnt continue. Honda makes the new hydrogen car but its rumored each one cost them 1 million to build (taking into account for R&D) now those are limited lease only just like the GMev1. How many of those do you see the average consumer buying??? At what cost do you take a hit from the manufacturer side? Also what about the infrastructure to fuel them? Where does that come from? Producing hydrogen isnt cheap, especially on a large scale.
There is no conspiracy between the oil companies and car makers. Simply put people want a answer now. There isnt one. we need to start with what works for every one now (which is oil, and start drilling our own and being less dependent on others) AND while doing that continue working on alternative options that will be CHEAP enough for every one.

This thread is about to be locked. Its starting to not belong here and belong in Car Talk.

Station

well i purchased one and a o2 sensor extender from ebay for 44 bucks including shipping and tax. so ill be the guinea pig and hopefully it works. if not i waisted some pocket change. ive been doing alot of research on it and i would love to get a afr controller instead of the o2 extender. i only expect to gain at least 7% from this because my fuel pump having to pump less gas to get the same combustion because of the added catalyst. when you add these hydrogen generators there is more o2 in your exhaust thats why the o2 sensor extender is added so its not directly in the gas flow in the exhaust and wont detect the extra oxygen in the exhaust and wont start pumping More fuel which would decrease my mileage. if i dont see any improvement then i will take it off and throw it away and you can all have proof to back up all your claims. sorry bought the wording its hard to type with the new addition to my hand, a steel plate and 4 screws, had surgery yesterday on my hand. i broke it punching this fat kid shane that hit a girlfriend of mine in the head with a bat. he is now in jail with 13 staples in his head because he also got beat with a bat but thats a whole other story. i hope this works, our tls already get great gas mileage for the power they have and this would make it an amazing machine if it could acheive the same mpg as some hybrids. ill include pics with my post only if the unit works. if it doesnt ill tell you all you were right and ill get a hated on for some reason but thats life. and thank you for the little support.
-Brandon

Station

forget everything i say if you want to know how it goes for me or want any info PM me this is obviously not a good topic to discuss. and sorry about these threads kris i dont start them i contribute what i know for the sake of saving money and if it works ill let u know if you want as well, that will be all i say publicly about this.

Bob_F

That's crazy talk.

More seriously, I'm sorry to read about your hand and I hope your girlfriend is OK.

LukeaTron

To do this experiment and get valid results you'll have to run with the extender and no hydrogen generator. I suspect any gains you'd see are because the ECU is leaning out the engine since it's receiving an artificially rich signal from O2 sensor. That's what the extender does.

The logic that the H generator is causing there to be more O2 in the exhaust makes no sense. Hydrogen consumes much more oxygen than gasoline when they burn. If anything you should get a rich condition due to the hydrogen hogging up all the O2.

A word of warning though, running lean can cause you to knock. If it's not to bad the ECU will retard your timing in attempt to prevent the knock. You will get less power under this condition. If it's beyond the parameters of the engine to prevent the knock, you can potentially damage it. Absolutely use the highest octane available when you do these tests.

Billy Sacco

\There is a car club in japan of guys getting over 100mpg with their priuses using various hacks and techniques. If these guys figured it out why can't toyotas engineers?

03aspec

please do your car a favor and sell it! first you come around and make some very tasteless mods to your car and now this?... the honda fit was made for people like you my friend..

Station

trust me if i hear my engine knocking i wouldnt continue the tests. its not worth the risk. i know that leaning it could cause serious damage but its supposed to equal out. if not ill disregard it or do some more tests or wait for a afr controller. and i never use anything except the highest octane.i tried filling up once with 87 when premium was 5.05 a gallon and i was short on cash and i could tell my baby didnt like it at all. like i gave her a coors light when there was Heineken available. we shall see.