I was at Acura today, and chatted with a tech about mods. Turns out that honoring / not honoring warranty or even working on cars with mods is an issue decided by the dealership owner. Go figure.

I was asking about warranty issues they've had with modded cars, and the answer was more or less a judgment call on the part of the dealership. Again, no surprise.

Here's the interesting story, though: he had a kid come in with a modified Integra (intake and exhaust), and the kid wanted warranty work on his blown engine. The engine was totally shot, including a thrown rod that had ripped the engine apart(!) internally. Gee, what were you doing to the car to make this happen asked Acura, were you racing? the kid protested that he was just driving down the road and the car started making a horrible racket and died.

The dealer hooked the car up to the computer and found that the engine had been running at 14,000 RPM. I asked how they could determine that, the tech explained that there's a "black box" that records maximum RPM ever run for the engine! Turns out that when the dealer caled BS on the kid, he admited that he had been racing and accidentally shifted into the wrong gear, forcing the car to 14,000 RPM. Oops!

Anyway, you guys modding cars beware - Big Brother is watching!!!

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'01 White Diamond Pearl 3.2TL
-Wing, tint, wood and Whistler

 

that story he gave you about the kid: even if it was stock and he mishifted the same thing would have happened. the mods did have a thing to do with it

it also doesnt make too much sense to me that the owner of the dealership makes the warranty call.
ive never heard of a black box, and i think the tech was bs'ing you. though im sure there are ways to tell if a 8000rpm red line car was revved to 14K

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Follow as i ride
99 Satin Silver
Bridgestone RE-730 225/55/16
oem kit
ctech exhaust
ctech sways
aem intake
system

 

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'01 White Diamond Pearl 3.2TL
-Wing, tint, wood and Whistler

 

Your "black box" is your handy-dandy ECU. It's a very trivial matter to have a log in permanent memory recording extremes of operation. Big Brother isn't "watching" you; you're just carrying around a very honest journal-keeper.

 

I do believe you've hit the proverbial nail on the head, my good man!

As an aside, truckers in Turkey are required to maintain "Tacho Disks" which essentially record vehicle speed on a piece of paper. When an authority asks to see the tacho, the trucker is obliged to produce the disk which shows how fast he's been traveling for the last period of time. If he was speeding, then he goes to jail. That would really suck if we had to keep such a device, no!?!

Actually, something like a LoJack could do the same function vis GPS, and the cops could simply mail us the ticket the second their computer registered our car speeding. Even worse, the cops would know where the car was and pull oit over in minutes after recording the offending speed. (OK, that's going a little far, but it's not entirely unreasonable.)

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'01 White Diamond Pearl 3.2TL
-Wing, tint, wood and Whistler

 

http://home-news.excite.com/news/zd/...car-spy-pushes

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2000 Navi TL White Diamond Pearl
(they're magically delicious)

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">[This message has been edited by mentl on June 23, 2001 @ ]</font>

 

An integra can go up to 14K rpm??? he's gotta have more than Intake & Exhaust!

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2000 Acura 3.2 TL, Taffeta White, 25% tint
Factory Body Kit w/ Wing
Comptech Spring, Sway Bar, & Exhaust
18" Axis se7en (white) w/ Prelli P7000 SS
Piaa 1100XX fog light & Type-S tail light
Momo Combat Shift Knob & Levoc Racing Pedal set
42" (www.acura-tl.com) sticker on front window!

 

I guess he missed the 5-4 shift and actually did a 5-2. It's harder to miss the 4-3 and get a 4-1 instead. Or perhaps he missed judge which gear to shift? But hey if he did, then he doesn't deserve to drive, cuz 14000rpm is way off the line...

 

It's true, True the ECU recording extremes above engine specification. We have the same thing on Helicopters and Aircraft. If a turbine is over revved or too much torque is placed on a blade or transmission the aircraft would record for future maintenance study.
I have bumped the cut off on the engine several times in my old Maxima and the dealer said the the ECU recorded the codes whenever the fuel was shutdown or retarded from high RPM usage. No biggy though, the problem with was a dirty fuel filter. But 14,000 rpm? Did he disconnect his fuel shot off @ Redline or recalibrate the ECU? Geez. I hope he won the race.

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And win one for the misguided "zero tolerance" principle. I really doubt that this will go over well in the USA, the incurable autarkic lot that they are .

PS: I've never believed that "speed kills", but rather "imprudent speed kills", be it too fast or too slow.

 

Yeah, he accidentally grabbed 2nd gear instead of 4th, or so the dealer told me. I guess he shifted between 80-100 MPH into second, yuck. Rev limiter won't help you there - score one for automatic transmissions and SportShift!



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'01 White Diamond Pearl 3.2TL
-Wing, tint, wood and Whistler

 

PS: I've never believed that "speed kills", but rather "imprudent speed kills", be it too fast or too slow.


I agree all too well on I-35 daily

 

If he was racing and in 5th gear, where would he upshift to? there is no 6th speed..
Ed

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Acura-TL.com - Forum Moderator
'66 Mustang Fastback
'99 Mazda Miata
'99 Acura TL Satin Silver/Ebony, Non/Nav, Comptech Springs and Sways, CL Type S wheels wrapped with 225/45/17 Dunlop SP9000's, Comptech Air Filter Element, Inspire Tails, AEM Brake Pads all around, Comptech Axle Back Exhaust, Gutter Guard Grille, "Guy Smiley" doll on the dash as my Co-driver...

Pics of my TL
Pics of my Miata! Wadya think?

 

He was downshifting to slow down without using the brake, common practice for people who drive manual transmission cars

 

It's pretty easy to diagnose an over-revved engine... on Integras there's almost always bent valves from valve float. In more serious cases the value does real damage to the piston and they need to be replaced. I've seen a couple thrown rods as you mentioned, also.

I've tinkered with Integras for several years and had a few occasions to play with the PGM-FI tester your dealer uses to interface with the ECU. I can tell you that from my experience that the ECU does not store a value for maximum RPM attained.

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2000 WDP 3.2TL non-NAV
AEM CAI w/bypass, Comptech header

 

There are a few things here that require some clarification. First, "big brother" is watching........just not your brother, and not in the way your thinking

The ECU records what is called "freeze data". This is not to be confused with simply using a PGM-FI tester to retrieve failure codes. The freeze data will record certain parameters in the event of a failure, and yes, this does include RPM.

There are a two reasons for this. The first is for the technician, so he can validate a repair. Here is an example for #1:

The "check engine" light comes on while you're driving on the highway. You visit the local Acura dealer and the tech retrieves the DTC (diagnostic trouble code) for the EGR valve. He replaces the valve and clears the codes. The conditions at the time of failure are set in the freeze data.....if the engine was fully warmed up and driving at 2500 rpm in 4th gear, he will duplicate to verify the repair was effective. It's simply a tool for repair validation.

Reason #2 for freeze data is for the manufacturer. Here is an example for reason #2:

After the tech completes the repair from example #1, he downloads the freeze data to the manufacturer along with the warranty claim. The factory notices that there is a high number of 3.2 TL's coming in with the "check engine" light coming on when driving between 2000 and 2500 rpm in 4th gear. They find there is a problem with carbon deposits due to intake design. This is where product improvement comes from.

In the story of the Integra, there are a number of things that could have triggered the "check engine" light, and freeze data was captured. He abused the car beyond it's limits, and I agree that it should not be covered by any warranty.




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2002 TL-S Navi
White Diamond/Ebony

 

wat was the rev limiter doing...on vacation?

 

If you reset the ECU (disconnect the power), all the stored information will be erased, and there will be no trace of what had happened beforehand.

 

Well maybe or maybe not...I think he downshift to get more speed. 5 is the gas saving gear and does **** as far as power...so most "racers" (I used this term loosely) shift from 5 to 3rd to jump the tach up and hit VTEC for power. My friends do this all the time in their tegras. Same thing with our cars, we can downshift to slow down without using the brake or more commonly, downshift for the VTEC power.

 

You figure they wouldn't make it so easy as that. To imagine what takes to run our cars is already amazing especially the sport shift design that we take for granted. They have to have a way to keep the memory stored even if the main power is disrupted.

 

Stuff like this makes me

In my eyes..Why won't the dealer fix it...THat is what you paid for... Regardless if you beat on the car or not..It should be designed to drive.. And another...If Acura does not cover warranties on a blown engine because of racing...Why in the hell would they make a Type-R series of the Integra...So we can look at it and pretend its going fast.....

Acura should warranty it...That is what you paid for ...It's not my fault the car is not designed with a red line protector......

 

Your quote doesn't make any sense. If he was racing, he would downshift from 5th to 4th to accelerate, not slow down! When driving my Integra GS-R on the interstate, I always downshift to pass (and I'm sure not slowing down!)

 

The post about Acura or any other company paying for blown engines due to racing is just stupid. Cars are designed to be driven and maybe driven hard in the case of sport models or high performance versions. But to say that racing is just part of what the car is sold for shows a real lack of maturity. If you want to race that's fine. Buy a race car. Some engine companies will warranty an engine built for racing when racing. But don't expect a regular passenger automobile to be designed for racing and get warranty coverage when you blow an engine. That's insane.

 

Does the terms OBD II (NOW) and OBD III (FUTURE) mean anything to anybody here?

 

Dude ... A car is not a plane. There is no black box to record RPMs and speed data. But the "KID" was not very smart to bring in his Integ. with modified components.

 

Some cars do have this feature. Based on my experience, I am 99.9998% certain that Integras do not. Again, it's pretty easy to tell when an engine has been over-revved by looking at various internals -- namely the valves and the pistons. I've seen cases where cylinder walls have split as well.

Also, the rev limiter can only cut fuel and/or ignition to prevent over-revving. If you downshift one gear instead of upshifting to the next while you're at the redline -- once you release the clutch you've got a link between the axles (which the wheels are turning), the transmission and the crankshaft. The momentum of the car will force the engine well past it's redline -- this isn't a design flaw it's human error. No rev limiter can prevent this. And no dealer in their right minds will (or should) warranty this.

 

I've seen this same thing at my dealer. It was an RSX Type-S. The kid/owner, shifted from 5 to 2 and blew the engine. The tech told me the ECU records the last 5 seconds when something bad happens. Just like a black box. Even if you disconnect your battery or ECU this memory doesn't get erased.

And yes, ODB II and ODB III mean something. When ODB III kicks in, the police could (not saying this will be implemented) but COULD acutally turn your car OFF. ie, to be used in a high speed chase. They would basically disable you so they could catch up and arrest.
JUST REMEMBER, this is not definitely a feature they will be given, but the possibility is there w/ ODB III.

 

Imagine the situation of a woman driving home from the store, and some crooks have a knock-off/homemade version of this and turn off her car in a remote area. It would just be a matter of time before something like that was developed.

I personally don't like any sort of feature that could be used to disable my car from the outside.

 

There is another angle to this - Insurance companies noticed they were paying alot of claims to owners and families of muscle car owners who blew engines, or raced on the streets and died in crashes and so on, so the first cars to record the info. we've been talking about here were Camaros, Firebirds and Corvettes starting in (I think) 1993, or close to it. It helps GM's case when their attorney can prove that their car didn't kill it's occupant in a 65mph crash as the occupant's attorney claims. The ECU could prove that at the time of the crash the car was going 132 for example, and no award given.

 

I think it's a bad idea. If a device like this were to be developed..it would be used for "bad" more oftenly then for "good". ie GUNS....i think more ppl died because of guns then being saved by them.

 

There are a few misconceptions in this thread, let me address them:

1. The fact that Acura didn't warranty the repairs has nothing to do with the mods, but due to the fact that the driver screwed the pooch and blew his engine through his own fault. Same concept as getting in an accident, it's time for your insurer, not the dealer.

2. The rev limiter prevents you from hitting red line through application of throttle. It is still possible (and fairly common with Integras from what I hear) to miss a shift (accelerating for example, and you go 1-2-3-2 boom!). If you're at redline in 3rd, and then you stick it into 2nd and pop the clutch, suddenly the wheels are going to rev the engine to 14k and that's all she wrote. The rev limiter may very well kick the throttle to zero, but that hardly matters as you've got a mechanical connection to wheels that are spinning at a speed that after gearing equates to 14k revs.

3. The "black box" concept is something I've heard before, and it's not limited to Acura. A friend of mine has a 911, and when he went in with a burned clutch and blown tranny, they were able to tell him an incredible list of things about what he had been doing when he killed it.