THE ROCK

It is interesting that when i went to my cousin's house today that i read a japanese (not really read but looked at the pics) of a japanese magazine that has a report on the life of the 4 big types of cars; A Jap car, An American Car, A European Car and a Korean Car. I don't know japanese but from what my cousin told me (he knows some japanese but not all), he said the magazine states that it took the 2 largest sales company from the Korea (Daewoo and Hyundai) 4 Largest from Jap (Honda/Acura, Toyota/Lexus, Nissan/Infinity, Mitubishi), 3 Largest from North America (Ford, Chrysler, Dodge and all the lincolns, caddys) and 4 Largest from Europe (BMW, Volvo, Volkswagon, Benz).
The study basically randomly selected approximately 2700 cars from each category (Jap, euro, etc) rated the average life of each category according to the sales of each company (ex. If 10 Euro cars are sold and 4 went to BMW, 3 went to Benz, 2 to volvo, 1 to VW, then they would take the ratio of 40% BMW, 30% Benz, etc).
In addition, they also listed an average cost the owner of such cars needed to dish out every year to maintain the car (all repairs/maintainance, gas and oil change).

RESULTS

Japanese
Life of Car = 11.50 years
Avg Annual Costs = Approx $ 1865

American
Life of Car = 6.50 years
Avg Annual Cost = Approx $2740

European
Life of Car = 9.50 years
Avg Annual Cost = Approx $2310

Korean
Life of Car = 8.75 Years
Avg Annual Cost = Approx $2055

However, it stated nothing about the gas prices and what type they put in.
The only draw back I see from this mag is that the mag is from August 2000 edition

tgif

What about Japanese car that made in America? Same life span as Japanese car made in Japan?

seotaiji

I still consider Acura TL is still japanese car. The facts are owned by Japanese company and they produce same cars in Japan. Also American cars are american some of them are made in Mexico and canada. Consider or not.

Closer

Modified Japanese Cars

Life of Car = 2.50 years (until totalled in street race)
Avg Annual Costs = Approx $ 5865

THE ROCK

I've got no clue about that one. although i tend to think they don't last as long because the attitude from USA workers and Japanese Workers are so different. USA workers are just flat out lazy and their attitude is that "just do it" no matter how crappy of a job it is, as long as it is done. But Japanese workers are more or less perfectionists, where the think ing is that if i make good cars, then i get a good reputation and ppl will come back to me becuz i make good cars. Americans are more or less "who cares how long the car lasts, they'll have to buy a car eventually"

THE ROCK

oh, another thing. Even Gran Turismo 3 for PS 2 considers Acura American. It lists Acura under American Cars. I guess that's sort of true becuz it's mainly made in USA, it's called Honda in Japan, not Acura, and the biggest buyers of Acuras are in NOrth America.

The craftsmanship in my 02 TL lacks big time! During heavy rain fall, water can get under door panels and is an inch from gettin inside; There are weird lumps in the black insulation around the frame of the door windows, the leather seats are not stiched together too perfectly, and all these other little things wrong with my TL. I personally think this would be dramatically reduced if this car was made in Japan. I'm not saying there would be nothing wrong with it, i'm just saying there would probably be less things wrong with it...

yee

yeah, Ford Winstar and a couple others are build in Canada, but it's considered a U.S. car...
the country of which a car belongs to is not considered by where it final assembly is. Instead, it depends on where the majority of the parts a made. I think it's someting like 40% has to be made by a certain country for it to be that country's car. If no parts by any country adds up to that percentage then it'll be where the car manufacturer is registered
Many Japanese car are made here because they would like to avoid import tax, to do so they would have to meet the percentage as well.

ok..I'm not making sense anymore since I haven't slept... from yesterday...

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

Actually Acura is an american company. There is no Acura in Japan. I believe less then 10% of the TL comes from Japan, so it's basically American all around (Acura is american and parts are american). Also, take the CL as an example, there is no CL in Japan, only in the US.......

Steveb

Acura is a subsidiary of Honda which is a Japanese company. My Sony TV was made in Mexico from parts all around the world so is Sony a Mexican company? Of course not. The business plan for Acura was derived from Honda headquarters in Japan. Acura is a Japanese company.

hunter001

Actually, the percentage is something like 25% Japanese components not 10%. The non-japanese 75% includes the body panels, suspension components, tires, wheels etc, while the Japanese 25% includes things like the Transmission etc.

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

10%....25%.... I was close!!

SL1200MK4

okay..... very honestly guys.... with all the problems and quality issues I had with my TL, I think the TL is more like an American car to me.

I have to agree on the workers' attitude thing. Of course management style should also be considered, but it's part of the culture. I mean you can't really apply the Japanese management style in American. You can blend it in and somehow give them the idea of TQC, and JIT concepts. But... all I can say is that it is different.

One little example. In Japan Just In Time is important to them because they have very limited space, and yet in the states it's a totally different ball game.

Not saying that the TL is not a good car, but as far as the quality goes... I say cars made in Japan have my vote.

daverman

There's definitely a cultural difference between Japan and America. It's like the difference between trying to be the recognized as the best in one's field versus finding the least amount of work that will let you stay on the payroll.

seotaiji

I'm sure Acura is under Honda, same car actually made in Japan. It's just different quality. would you say BMW Z3 is american cars? which was made in South Carolina USA. More people would say it is still German Cars. I say still Japanese car, agreed upon Honda manufactures and techniques and same technology provided in Japan.

SL1200MK4

Yet, I mean the TL is still an Japanese car, but you can feel the American car DNA!!! I mean the lack of quality......... Maybe mine is a lemon...... but no.............. TL got $hitty quality IMHO and based on my own expriences.

Same goes to the Z3, X5, and M-class. I have to say that they are still all nice cares............ but........ hum........ well well.......... It's the little things that makes the difference.

Oh, and the german somehow did things a bit differently. At least from what I know the whole drive train of the M-class is still assmbled in Germany. The ship it to the states in a huge wooden box, and they just bolt the drivetrain on.

QuickRick

Guys--As my Japanese friend once said "Epatsu yakka" which means "chicken ****" in Japanese! Ever seen an old Z car or Civic around past 15 years? Now, ever see an old American Cab around or Truck ? heck yes! I see tons of muscle cars and T-birds or Mustangs still around while those others rusted in two. Give me a break! Good value for the money? Okay. Good quality build , yes. Better than all American cars....oh please!

daverman

Let the fight begin!

OK, how many Japanese trucks were sold in America 15 years ago? Not too many, I would guess. So obviously American trucks are all that you see.

Now consider how many 15-year old Ford Probes and Chevy Cavaliers and Chevelles you see compared to Civics on the road, and the picture isn't quite as rosy!

jps

In my opinion, American workers should not be blamed for poor quality... American management perhaps. But times and quality have changed for the better due to competition. Its still managements responsibility to put processes and materials in place to build a quality machine.

You can have the best workers in the world, but they can't control the design and materials, and have little control over process.

QuickRick

Yep--I couldn't agree more about plants and management. In Japan it is unuual to be laid off in tough times.....think that it is so here?? A Ford Pobe is a Mazda MX 6 so if it doesnt hold up blame Mazda. I think the best thing that has come from Japan is the Value and competition. It has forced people to try harder both domestic and foreign. I visited a Chevy Astro truck plant in Baltimore and was taken on a cool tour. They actually are being listened to on the line now and have that Toyota "stop pull chord" on the production line. The fact that I was there, they listened to our desires for the vehicle and the new more "worker friendly " plant is proof that things are changing even if slowly. It would be a sad day when there are no Chevys made here or Nissans from Japan.........I want choices and variety, and don't want to live in a 4 cylinder Camry world.

mikester

Yeah, I really don't think it is fair to blame American workers for all the quality problems. In general, I think most people are interested in doing a good job, it's just that sometimes their hands are tied by management or they aren't sufficiently motivated.

For example, look at the success of Dilbert - and that is poking fun at white-collar corporate America and how f*cked up it is. Do you think they have a similar cartoon in Japan? I would doubt it.

I think it comes down to a difference in corporate philosophy. General Motors will never be known for producing the best engineered cars in the world, but they will continue to be the largest producer of cars because that is what their focus is. They have chosen quantity over quality and their entire business model reflects that. So in a way, they are doing a good job of managing their employees because they also reflect the corporate mission, which is to produce a large quantity of affordable "good enough" cars.

To blame the workers for this isn't fair - they are caught up in a corporate culture that values certain things, and if you tried to buck the system it would just wear you out. You might decide that as long as you work on the GM line, you're going to build the best darn cars you can. But after a few years of watching everyone else work half as hard as you, and getting the message from management that your extra efforts aren't really appreciated, you would get discouraged.

Reminds me of a Dilbert (sorry, couldn't find the cartoon online) where Dilbert gets an assignment from his boss right before lunch that is needed by 1:00. Dilbert realizes that he can either work hard on it and skip lunch, or he can half-ass it and get to eat. The last frame shows him in the lunch room saying "I just traded my work ethic for this banana", and Wally chimes in "I ate that banana years ago".

wakkolio

I personally think American and foreign cars have their ups and downs. American cars have better sheet metal compared to Japanese. Japanese are more reliable, and European cars are solid in both ways expect in the eletrical department and mucho dinero.

THE ROCK

There probably was no market for japanese cars back then. if u think about it, there are all those muscle cars becuz ppl who own those cars spend countless hours on their cars all the time. They replace this, replace that, do this do that to their cars! that's why u see them, if u open the hood of some of those cars, don't be surprised if it says "Honda" made in japan AND please check out the milage on some of those muscle cars, I bet that they have less than 80 000 -100 000 miles in them. SO to conclude on this point, u see them becuz they're not driven very much!


OK. I think when all the marbles are laid down and you know enough about cars, i'd think the majority would take a japanese car over an american anyday (in terms of the cars being in the same class like a TL and a 300M)! Having talked to mechanics from different body shops, they'd never buy an American car simply becuz the maintenance is through the roof!

Ever notice that American cars always and i mean always change styles? that's becuz their cars are only good for a short while and they want to attract ppl to change cars more often so they wouldn't notice the car problems after 4-5 years.

I personally would take the japanese car anyday!
look on the road for 10-15 year old caddys or lincolns.....can't find much? that's becuz they've all been scrapped! That's American Luxury for ya.....

Steveb

I think you can apply Japanese style management in America and it be a success. I think that's what you see with Acura. The reliability data obtained by Consumer Reports ranks Acura(US made) right up there with the best Japanese made cars. That's something you cannot dispute and you won't find any American manufactured cars rankedUbn as high as Acura's. The same goes with Camry's, Avalons and Accords that are manufactured in the US. If you were right about Japanese management not working in the US then why haven't we seen a reduction in quality of Japanese cars since 100's of thousands of Japanese cars are now built in the US. Japanese cars reliability data is better than ever. I think this is a strong argument for putting most of the blame on American management. Unless Acura highers it's workers from a different pool, union, nonunion?

asiankidd

where does that put jap cars that are made in the us?

seotaiji

Imports are always Expensive and better reliablity, just Like Sony TV.
1. Manufacturing in Japan will cost more money, than produce in USA. All that means metal and alluminum cost more in Japan, even leather cost more, even plastic costly expensive, in Japan they don't have materials like US. US is the best business source, why would you produce in Japan? for the best materials?
2. And USA has the highest incomes, and there are higher reputation than any other country. More people comes US to live in USA. I'm sure if you like the Japanese quality, you should live in Japan and compare to US.
3. By the source, more people likes imports than Made in USA.
4. Anyway, most of newer technology comes from USA, that's the fact that we have to live with, without US there is no competition.
. 5.Computers, Aerospace, and engineerings are 5 years better than Japan. I gurantee that US is better, but not in our cars. Imports are always better.
6. But I rather shop in US market and consume imports cars.

By talking ACURAs' it still has good quality to it, and it's cheaper than the imports.