RedLined

Jon, you indicated in a couple of previous threads that the problem w/ TLS trannies was in limited to early '02 trannies and that the problem has since been resolved. If that's the case, why have there been some '03s with bad trannies? What was the problem/solution?

I'm not flaming or being contentious, I'm just curious what the Honda people had to say.

oblio98

I hate to be an a$$, but I can't tell you.
I know this is really lame, but I am in a tough spot.
All I can say is it's fixed. If I plaster it all over this board, I will lose the confidence of my source, which I will not do.

asiankidd

why is honda trying to hide it if its already known to be a problemm...my guess is it must be something realllly stupid like missing screw.....

ferizzo

Tell us! You are sure its been fixed though, correct? I guess in the end thats all of us really car about. (although it'd be nice to know what the problem was and what they did to fix it)

copland007

Can you at least give us a timeframe when it was fixed, because you can bet ur ass that I will haul my car in if it is before this 'problem' was 'fixed'...

And to top it off I am starting to get hard 4th to 5th shifts

slyborg

oblio, there is a theory being supplied on acura-cl.com from someone who claims to work at an Acura dealership in NC that the problem has to do with transmission being designed to not use a transmission cooler and that this was a mistake and that the fluid overheats and decomposes which causes the trannies to fail.

Can you at least indicate whether or not this matches your info?

Ruski

Oblio98, did they feed you that BS about bearing beeing too small and now they use better bearings or something?

jbn

When you say it is fixed could elaborate on that? When was it fixed for 03 during 02? Is there that seperates it being "fixed" from not? All we want to know is what we have to deal with.

Thanks
Joe

oblio98

It has nothing to do with a "bearing" and everything to do with the Powertrain Control Module.

:-jon

Black TL

Jon, so if we were to buy a TLS within the next month, we shouldn't worry about the transmission right? We are most likely now going to get another TL so your input is appreciated.

Rosh

oblio98

I was told by rock solid reliable sources that the problem is now fixed. Unless an older tranny slipped into a 2003, you are safe.

From what I was told, and who told me (again, sorry to be such a jerk here about this) I myself would feel comfortable in buying a new 2003 TL-S. In fact, I am almost comfortable now to keeping my '02, because if the tranny goes again, I know I will get a unit that is fixed.

:-jon

So, bottom line, BUY A TL-S! IT IS A GREAT CAR!!!

DHB

Soooo, if we bought a 03 TLS in March of 2003 do you have reason to believe that it has the "fix"?

copland007

So we should all bust our '02 trannys really quick so we can get a new one? hmm

RAdams

So this has all been a software issue?

slyborg

I'm not saying that oblio doesn't have what he genuinely believes is reliable information, but based on what has been supplied as information, this isn't any better than any of the other rumors/speculations/smoke blown out Honda's ass that has been circulated about the tranny problem.

The ECU blurb makes no sense to me. If it was a "software" problem, this doesn't explain the number of incidents where replacement trannies failed shortly thereafter. Or reported 03 TL-S which have had failed transmissions.

Clearly, it's in Honda's best interests for everyone to think the problem has gone away. The best way would be for them to come clean and issue a public bulletin that states that VINs 'x'..'y' may be affected by this specific technical problem which is now solved by Honda changing/fixing 'z'. Instead, like Ford with the Explorer tires, they try and wait it out and hope it doesn't show up on 'Dateline'. I find this disappointing, but I guess they're just another big corporation like any other.

On the other hand, BMW has had a lot of trouble with the new 7-series, which is as visible a car as you could want, and announced a recall to fix the problems. That, for lack of a better phrase, is the way a man handles a problem.

asiankidd

seriously!!

RedLined

There are a couple of flaws in this "theory". First, that it came from someone at a dealership. We all know they don't know sh!t and are the least reliable source for any information. Second, if it were due to overheated tranny fluid that eventually decomposes, it seems that the frequent fluid changes some members have performed would have prevented a tranny failure. Ultimately, they did not nor were there any signs of bad tranny fluid.

Do a search and you will find more threads on the tranny issues then you'll ever be able to read.

Finally, Jon (oblio98) is a long-time and well respected member. He's not the kind of person that would spread rumors or hearsay. So if he says he has a reliable source of information, I believe him 100%.

slyborg

Oh, I don't believe the fluid theory, either. And I've read the whole raft of posts on this, which is why I conclude that if anybody knows anything, it's Honda engineering, and they obviously haven't been talking (including to dealer service departments). Given Jon's history on the topic, I'm inclined to supply more weight to his comment, as well as respecting his agreement with a source. However, from a practical standpoint, it doesn't provide a lot of help.

I've got a spanking new late March build 2003, and I'm pleased with the car. If Honda would even just announce that "The Problem" does not affect cars built after such and such date, a large number of folks would be happy. If it does potentially affect a car that hasn't had a failure yet, it would seem to make sense for Honda to put out a bulletin to say "flush every 5k miles" or "replace ECU software" rather than wait around for total failures, pissed off customers, and a $2-3k repair that on a # of cars Honda is having to eat under warranty.

So in summary I guess - props to Jon for his following the issue, and again, just disappointed with Honda's response, it doesn't make sense to me. Like most people, I think I'm pretty reasonable, Honda has a good track record, and anybody can have a problem, it's just happened to BMW, as I say. If they come clean and explain it, I'm not going to hold it against them. If they try and keep it a secret, it's just guaranteed to blow up in their face, there has been example after example of this in the auto industry and it seems nobody learns.

DHB

I WANT TO BELIEVE!

I just wish Jon would drop a little more of that reassuring info.

ferizzo

I want to believe as well (especially since I have an 03 TLS)! Jon's theory sounds solid considerring there are quite a few people who have had mutliple tranny failures. As long as they never changed the ecu then you would expect the trannys to continue failing. Then again I am no engineer so I could be talking out of my a$$ (although my a$$ has no hands so how is it typing?)

Jon, I need more info (email me please!!!)

oblio98

Send me a PM

:-jon

ferizzo

Jon,

I sent you a message at aworld (I'm not a premium member here yet).

oblio98

You know, I was all for the "Premium Member" stuff, bit it is a REAL pain in the butt for me, a "Premium Member" not to be able to PM any member.

I once asked if they could make it so that a Premium Member could initiate a PM, but a regular member could only respond.

That would work out to the Premium Members advantage.

However, they never did it, so I guess it can't be done.

What a PAIN!!!

:-jon

RedLined

Well said. I think Honda should come clean as well.

Bitium

I'm wondering too

The PCM does not have mechanical parts, so all PCM's are identical right??? Our PCM's are not user adaptive are they?? I don't personally think they are. nor the ECU is user adaptive.

How come it happens to some and some not. I don't know if you already post it the info, but could you tell us how the PCM is involve and how it could cause the transmision to fail.

Is an interesting theory, but need more info.

oblio98

What I was told was this: In the TL(-P), the PCM keeps the tranny from shifting "agressively" from 1st to 2nd when the tranny is cold. For "performance" purposes, the PCM does NOT have this restriction programmed in for the TL-S. They found that this caused the majority of the TL-S tranny failures.

This has only to do with TL-S tranny failures. All other TL/Accord tranny failures are not related to this, and are just random tranny failures that any particular car brand may experience.

That is why we seem to have such a high (in my opinion) number of TL-S tranny failures.

:-jon

Airdog

Jon

Thanks for all of the info you have provided. It's good to know people like you and others on the forum try to get the trueth out, unlike Honda/Acura.

fotomann

I posted a new thread without seeing this one.

I have a Jan build of the '03 TLS. Just picked up my car yesterday after a tranny and oil pump failure. I had a whining gear noise that started at about 30 mph and got louder to 60 mph and then roadnoise made it hard to hear after that. Said it was an internal failure with a badly designed seal that caused an internal leak. Could have just been feeding me an answer to field off my curiosity.

As I said in my orig post. I still love the car! Had a '93 legend before this that never once broke down. Sold it with 170,000 miles.

Bitium

Sounds good to me. I was always suspiciuos about my PCM. I wanted to change it once, but it was about $500. My car does appear to perform different when hot and cold or just when it get's turn on and after a while.

I did have a bad transmission because it overheated, but it was not acura's fault. The transmission fluid line was bent and the fluid rate was reduced causing the transmission to overheat. The syptoms were the same as other members explained that also had bad trannies

bsk

So why cant Acura fix the PCM. Wouldn't that be cheaper than replacing all the broken trannys. Do all tl-s built before this fix have flawed PCM/tranny combinations. Then wont all tl-s trannys eventually fail.

And for the newly replaced trannys - Do they just replace the tranny with one that can handle the harder 1-2 shift or do they correct the PCM also.

oblio98

Guys,

I am SICK of all of this "tranny" stuff. Believe me, I know the cycle of disbelief, denial, anger, rage, resignation, and inquisition quite well. When I first had my tranny failure, I had to put up with moronic posts scolding me for driving the car too hard, etc. That was bull.

I was incensed that a new car that I spent over $6,000 to mod and that I intended to keep for 200,000+ miles would have a major failure, and to make matters worse, other guys were having the same failure, some TWICE!!

No one would explain it, while others poo-poo'd it, only irritating those of us who had to deal with it. While members argued about what percentage of us had bad trannys, the point was that A LOT OF US had bad trannys, and all in a brand new 2002 car! This was, and turned out to be, no coincidence.

Anyway, I just lucked out by sheer fate in getting a credible answer to the problem, and to a few long time members who have shared my situation I have shared more details of the story, but the bottom line is that I know no more than the post above on the PCM. Heck, I am not even sure what a "PCM" exactly is!!

At any rate, I seem to have gotten myself saddled with this "broken-tranny-guy" label, and I really don't want it. I am not an expert or a wise sage, I am just a guy like many of you who had a tranny go, then lucked out and found out a bit about it.

Please do not PM me for more info, because there is no more info. I was not even going to mention what I was told, but felt it was only fair as this topic has overtaken this board.

The fact that this failure has occured and will occur to many of your cars sucks, that's why I wanted to tell you all that the problem is solved, and if your tranny goes, get it fixed and get on with it.

At least you won't have to worry about it failing again. They will take care of you, they will get you a car, and they will fix the thing and your car will be smokin' again.

Sh!t happens, we live with it, and get on with the plan. If you all want to go sell your car and get a G35 or BMW or whatever, cool! But don't speak poorly about other members here who love their cars.

We got the TL-S because we liked the car and we all like our decisions affirrmed by others, but you know what???

Who gives a crap what other people think? If you like your car, don't worry- - - drive the damn thing. If the tranny breaks, get it fixed.

Lecture over...

:-jon

slyborg

Well said, Jon, and again, unwillingly or no, you have been a great front man on the tranny issue. We'll hereby anoint you "Broken Tranny Guy (Ret.)"

PCM is Powertrain Control Module. Was usually the ECU or Engine Control Unit when I worked on auto electronics, but this was before smart transmissions. (I guess the TL-S unit got too smart for its own good.) With the advent of integrated vehicle control, the central computer is often handling multiple functions now.

Assuming that the trans shift schedule is in fact the issue, the fix should show up as slower acceleration numbers for the TL and CL -S when driven in D5. For the hard chargers, once again, there still is no substitute for a manual for performance driving (not counting the high-tech electro-hydraulic systems in F1....) It's too bad the 6-speed isn't an option for the TL-S.

DHB

Great job Jon and thank you so much for all of your effort related to the tranny issue!

The only question that still remains is....what VIN and subsequent have/will have the modified PCM?

alfielum

oblio98...
Want to thank you for spending your time and efforts in finding out and explaining what was the reasoning for the amount of tranny failures. Know I know for sure to ensure that the engine & tranny are "warmed-up" before doing any hard "acceleration".


P.S. - Could you say when (month & year) the PCM's have been properly set / programed for the type-S (as I bought a '03 type-S at the end of May '02)? Thanx again...

Ruski

before my 2002 TL-S tranny broke, I don't think I did any hard acceleration before getting warmed up. I have to drive ~10 minutes before I get to a highway during my commute, usually at steady ~45mph speeds. Shouldn't that be enough time to warm up?

oblio98

Me too, that's what I thought, but what about other times (not in the morning?). I myself cannot remember.

:-jon

Ruski

I really only drive to and from work in my TL-S

alfielum

oblio98...
Don't mean to be a "pest" on this subject, but were you able to find out from your source on the month and year when the CPM adjustments were made? I understand if you are not able to say or don't know, as it's sort of a "sensitive" subject matter... Thanx, either way...

oblio98

No, I did not find out exactly WHEN they found this problem. I would have to guess that since we have had 03TL-Ss go bad here, that the problem was only recently discovered.

The main thing is to stop worrying and drive the car, if it craps out, it craps out.

:-jon

PeterUbers

iTrader: (1)

I've lost much interest in the TL-S ... I'm w/ Jon... if it craps out ... such is life. Move on guys.