samkws

After 30000km and 3 drain/refill with Amsoil ATF on the 2nd tranny.....

i highly recommend all you to use if u want extra protection

i haven't drained the ATF for like 9 months and i drove hard on my car a lot, including a track day in april

i drained the ATF out last week and found the fliuid is still very redish and it smells fresh, not brown at all and no discolouration on the fluid

so it's good to do a ATF change every 6000-10000miles and using the Amsoil ATF really makes a difference in the fliud life, they do last longer in high heat

if u dun mind the price is higher than honda ATF, then go ahead and try this

acurabum

When did you get your 2th tranmis. ?

senixon

Just curious, and I keep seeing this w/ motor oils ofter as well, where did you get that COLOR is an indication of how fresh the oil is?

It's a myth people!!! All oils, no matter what their type, are made of long-chained molecules which get sheared into shorter chains in a running engine. This in turn means that the oil begins to lose it's viscosity over time, and it uses up the additives in it that prevent scuffing between cams and followers, rings and cylinder walls etc etc. When this happens, fresh oil is the key. And don't worry about the engine oil turning black. It will lose it's golden-brown colour within a few hundred miles of being put in to the engine. That doesn't mean it's not working. Quite the contrary - it means it is working well. It changes colour as it traps oxidised oil, clots and the flakes of metal that pop off heavily loaded engine parts. Just don't leave it too long between oil changes.

The reason Synthetic Oils keep light is because..., well their synthetic and the molecules don't react to heat the same as mineral oils, however they still loose their viscosity over time, and that my freinds is where trouble lies when people think they have fresh oil, and they dont.

Of course changing the oil every 6-10 thousand km, you'll never have to worry about it, but there is no such thing as changing it too often either. If you have the extra time and $$$ go for it.

TunedTL

Oil analysis is a better way than just looking at ATF color. Amsoil PC price is a little over $6 per quart, tax and shipping for 3 quarts is ~$20. For the same cost of running a report, I might as well just drain and fill with Amsoil.

Mr Hyde

The Honda ATF I used looked exactly the same with similar change intervals, and my tranny still crapped out.

Not sure what the point of this thread is. With those change intervals, if the fluid doesnt look good, you have problems.

samkws

for the first 4 years i have with my TL i think the dealership only changed once for me, so it's not unusual that the fluid goes brown

but now i do twice at year and just to see if it can hold longer

samkws

i had my 2nd tranny at 50k miles

Bambo2888

can we get a detailed writeup with pictures? anyone?

BustedJack

Well said, that's exactly what I was going to write.

acurabum

Sorry I mean after Feb/2005 or before that day ...?

kuni808

i thought if you use anything other than OEM ATF you void the warrenty?? Is this true or false??

senixon

FALSE - However the replacement has to meet or exceed OEM ATF specs and HAS to be certified by American Petroleum Institute (API). BTW Amsoil is not API certefied oil.

Acuracy02

They really have no way of telling this unless you use some wierd neon colored oil or something, but I believe all oils will change to a similar color after prolonged use. <- This myth is busted.


Our car takes 3 quarts, is this correct?

TunedTL

This does not matter since both Amsoil and Honda Z1 have the same cherry red color. Short of an oil analysis Acura can not tell and I doubt it ever do one before writing up a tranny warranty.

SodaLuvr

Wrong.

API is only for engine oils (and perhaps other engine lubricants), but ATF specs are a whole different game.

ATF products/specs are developed by the vehicle manufacturer in conjunction with an additive supplier, such as Lubrizol, Afton, etc. The additive supplier with develop an additive package for the ATF that will satisfy the dynamic friction retention requirements, service life requirements, etc.

Then, the additive supplier will work with a blender (i.e. Shell, ExxonMobil, etc) to combine the additive package with the recommended baseoil mix for the final product.

Finally, the ATF will be tested by the vehicle manufacturer or its designated testing laboratory to meet specs, then it will be licensed and considered "approved."

But here's the tricky part: Once all this is finished, the final product, the original one, will be approved for factory and service fill for the particular spec, i.e. Honda ATF-Z1. Honda does not have to allow its additive supplier to allow sale of the additive pack to other blends. They also do not have to allow licensing of the product.

So, what Honda has done in this case (along with Toyota, Mitsu, etc) is not allow other blenders (Shell, ExxonMobil,etc) to purchase the additive package for an ATF-Z1 product (at least the real one) from the original additive supplier. However, even though many additive suppliers have successfully reverse-engineered the additive pack, Honda still will not accept suitable ATFs for testing and licensing to ensure they meet the requirements and approve them for service fill...

Thus, the only "approved" lubricant that is guaranteed to work in Honda units is the genuine product, however, this is not to say that Amsoil's ATF, which has a Lubrizol additive pack, will not work.

Yes, they can tell. There may be tracers in the Honda ATF that can be detected with various IR analysis methods. This is though, irrelevant, as Honda cannot deny a repair claim solely due to the usage of a different lubricant; they must prove that the fluid was the cause of the failure. However, this rarely applies to 3rd party extended warranties, or extended warranties in general, so be careful there.

And yes, our cars take 3 quarts to service.

senixon

Don't know about Honda/Acura dealers, Audi dealer did an oil analysis, and would not cover the tranny replacement under warranty on my neighbors Audi S4 ($6k job), ouch.

TunedTL

Depends on the dealer, another member posted his Acura dealer has no problem honoring the warranty with Amsoil, which complies with Honda Z1.
Micheal noted that Honda Z1's formulation changes also, evidence by this AV6 ATF analysis reports.
https://acurazine.com/forums/ramblings-12/anyone-have-sunday-nights-soprano-espisode-their-computer-141105/

It is against the law for Acura to insist owners to buy Honda Z1 ATF as a condition to transmission warranty. If Honda Z1 is the only ATF that Acura honors warranty, Acura must make it free to owners.

Federal Warranty Laws
1.The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (15 U.S.C. 2302(C))

This federal law regulates warranties for the protection of consumers. The essence of the law concerning aftermarket auto parts is that a vehicle manufacturer may not condition a written or implied warranty on the consumers using parts or services which are identified by brand, trade, or corporate name (such as the vehicle maker's brand) unless the parts or service are provided free of charge. The law means that the use of an aftermarket part alone is not cause for denying the warranty.

SodaLuvr

TunedTL: Again, the MM act may not apply to all extended warranties...especially 3rd party ones, so constantly quoting from the MM act can be quite misleading without mentioning common exceptions.

TunedTL

Micheal, I think most members don't have 3rd party warranty. My service manual calls for ATF replacement @ 45K under severe driving condition, 45K is under the original Acura powertrain warranty.
The point I am trying to make here is Acura can not tell you to buy Honda Z1 ATF @ 45K as a condition to honor transmission warranty. If it does, it must provide it for free.
No one like Amsoil's MLM but I think Honda/Acura is equally guilty of muscling their brand and marketing to make tie-in $. I am not a lawyer, but in this "45K/Honda Z1 only" case, my advise is to get a written document from Acura.

sbuswell

i am switching to amsoil, no warranty to worry about. I just want the best atf in my car and Z1 IMO is not the best. One question though. I will be doing a drain/fill 3 quarts this weekend and not another one for a week or two later. is amsoil compatible with Z1? I assume so, but would like confirmation.

SodaLuvr

Yes...

smooth~silver_type_s

the most important thing for you to do is to install a b&m tranny cooler. The only difference between the amsoil and honda atf is that the amsoil offers, a little better protection at very high temps. However, once the tranny reaches those temps, its pretty much just a matter of time. the tranny cooler will prevent the temps from even reaching 350+ degrees. thats why I feel my honda atf+tranny cooler is much safer than amsoil without cooler.

TunedTL

00-03 transmission is already cooled by liquid (coolant).
https://acurazine.com/forums/technology-16/score-17-compaq-monitor-cheap-85267/
I used to be willing to shell out >$5 a quart for Honda Z1 ATF, but its value (last only 15K) does not justify the inflated price. Take a look at this AV6 UOA

SodaLuvr

The UOA I posted is not a caused by poor fluid...its possible that its a developing mechanical problem.

TunedTL

Playing Devil's Advocate
Is it the transmission's mechanical design/problem causes fluid condition to deteriote, or the inability of Honda ATF to handle harsher condition inside the transmission - which cause further mechanical damage?

MikePA

Yep, instead of simply improving the fluid, Honda/Acura decided it was a better (cheaper) solution to replace transmissions on hundreds (thousands?) of TLs.

SodaLuvr

To me, the problem in that UOA was a developing mechanical problem (I still think that way) that was caused by defective materials...that transmission had all of the latest updates.

If fluid was the cause of mechanical problems, I would've expected the fluid to be in extremely poor shape...the viscosity was fine in that report and the TAN appeared OK. Driving was on the harder side with multiple Auto-X events, but its difficult to wear out fluid in only 10K miles.

The fluid wasn't the cause of Honda's transmission problems, it was simply design flaws that were unrelated to fluid type/quality, though I still believe that Honda's fluid could be better, and they can make it a fill-for-life item.

Mr Hyde

Exactly, and no fluid in the world is going to change that, or fix that design flaw/defect, or prevent a flawed tranny from failing.

As I said, I used Honda fluid, and did a tranny fluid drain and fill at every other oil change. I still lost my tranny at 42k, and when it went, the fluid was ruby red, and not burnt at all.

As far as these trannies go, due to warranty concerns, I would just stick with the OEM fluid, and recommendations. More expensive fluid & fluid changes doesnt get you anything extra. If its flawed, it will fail, no matter what you do.

fsttyms1

Its a heater for the tranny, not a cooler

Its a design problem and has nothing to do with fluid on our cars.The honda fluid isnt overheating or breaking down.
Sorry to say this, but if you have no idea whats causing the tranny failure why post something like this.
Its not a fluid problem. Its a design problem with lack of cooling (not enough fluid gets to the parts that it needs, and under designed parts, which also have limitations as to redesign.

SodaLuvr

Well, the radiator heat exchange serves as both a heater and a cooler (to an extent) for the transmission. The temperature of the coolant is supposed to help keep the temps "even" between the two??? Not sure exactly...

EDIT- This reminds me...some GM transmissions have a thermostatic valve for the side cover that will only open when the unit is hot...

TunedTL

Obviously what is done here does little to prevent transmission failure. People like Sam and myself would like to try other ways, thinking "why eliminate other potential ways to make tranny last longer if what is recommendated by Acura does nothing"

I know synthetic ATF's higher flash point is a plus (flash point of that AV6 shows flash point decreased from 355, 350, to 340), Amsoil or Micheal's favorite Special Formulation should have higher flash point protection than minerial based Honda Z1.

I read RR's journal, he indicates synthetic's has better ability to absorb and disspate heat. Does it help the lower the temperature within critical areas of the tranny to prevent failure? No one knows but at least we give it a try.

It is very strange to hear this "Honda has a bad design, so there is no way to make things better" while all we do is drain and fill, use OEM fluid and follow to the letter to Acura's recommendation. Most of us may choose to do so when we are under warranty but I feel this metality will cost me $ down the line by not exploring better ways to solve the tranny problem at hand.

SodaLuvr

That is true. There are certainly a good # of transmissions in the past that've failed due to poor maintenance practices, but yet there is a far greater amount that have failed due to design flaws. And I certainly agree that good maintenance practices will prevent the cause of failure, to be, the former.

I think you're concentrating a bit too much on the flashpoint. Flashpoint certainly relates volatility, evaporation loss, and can also be a good indicator of a lubricant's condition. But a synthetic fluid's ability to dissipate heat and "handle" more heat is more related to its composition, and the oxidation levels...

Sometimes, OEM fluid may actually be a better deal. For example, I can get Honda Z1 for about $3.50/qt shipped...and Amsoil runs me about $7.75/qt...

If I drain/fill every 10-15K, I'm not sure if it'd make much of a difference.

Mr Hyde

But thats my point, the failing trannies are dying due to defective clutch packs that disintigrate. Thats the problem area which led to the whole tranny issue. If these clutch packs didnt have problems, the tranny reliability would be the same as it is for the rest of the car\'s components.

If you have a healthy tranny, and just want to use synthetic fluid to prolong the overall life of it, go for it, but if your goal is to avoid the tranny problems you are hearing about on these boards, you are just wasting time and money. If you have a defective one, no fluid in the world is going to prevent it from failing.

That\'s all I was trying to say.

TunedTL

You are right, I refer to the flash point because it is one indictation of fluid's physical condition, since that UOA does not have oxidation %. Another indication is viscosity: last sample is 44.3 (0.9% less) vs first sample's 45. Viscosity's margin of error (delta 0.76% of average) is very small, which means Honda ATF start to show a real trend to shear. fluid losing viscosity combines with loss of flash point protections, high Al ppm indicates needs to replace OEM ATF for that AV6.
I am sure you are aware of the mineral vs synthetic engine oil debate, it is matter of personal preference at the end. The out of pocket cost (price +shipping+gas+tax+ time) spread of synthetic ATF over minerial ATF is far less than syn engine oil over dino. And I don't plan to do 15K with Amsoil as I did with Honda Z1 for preventative maintenance.

SodaLuvr

The shearing issue is overblown...

ATFs will shear to 5.5-6.0cst after 15-20K and it is normal. They will still protect fine. Eventually, when it hits a "break" as I call, it will begin the gradual process of oxidation which will cause it to thicken. Fwiw, I've seen samples of the Esso LT71141 fluid with 90K and the viscosity was still in the mid-6 range.

There are new "universal" ATFs that will be avaliable in the future, that will be formulated in the 5.5-6 range, and will probably cover Honda Z1 as well...

fsttyms1

Appearently you dont get it. Like Mr Hyde said, the problem is mechanical, and no fluid in the world will help it. Where the burn fluid comes in is most likely when the clutch packs are severly worn and are being heated to very extreme temps (honda said it was somewhere in teh relm of 400+ deg if i remember right) durring normal shifts. And the more worn they get they more they slip and more heat is produced. there just isnt enough fluid there to keep them cool. the problem lies in not being able to get fluid to it to hale cool it, not what your saying of the fluid not having a high enough point. If enough fluid could get to it or teh parts were designed larger (which they cant be) there wouldnt be a issue. some of the updated parts were smoother places for the clutches and a shaft that allowed more fluid to travel to the clutch packs.

TunedTL

I think it is not logical to say nothing will work while one does not even try or even think about possible solution that listed here. Yes Acura has a pathetic design but does finger pointing lead to a possible way to prolong our transmission life?
Amsoil Flash point is 435 flash, if Honda says 400+ degree then Honda Z1 ATF will be toasted into ashes but Amsoil does not. If there is not enough fluid to get to certain critical place in the first place, why not to make sure the limited amount of ATF does get there can do its job better?
Yes fluid may not be the cause, but can anyone here have any scientific data that leads to the conclusion that deterioted fluid won't lead to further mechanical damage?

fsttyms1

But if the parts are wearing out due to design how is fluid going to help? especially when not enough can get to it??? Go ahead and try different fluids. I had 2 trannies die that the fluid was the same color that it went into the thing. The fluid wasnt cooked at all. when its a design problem and there is a LACK of fluid no fluid will help. Ive got the parts laying around that fail. they arent bigenough. that would solve the problem

TunedTL

Color is an indication of fluid oxidation, but it is a very crude method. Didn't Micheal see an oil analysis report of one ATF that was not seem burnt (no loss of original dye color) but showed severe oxidation in the oil analysis?
To me, not enough ATF means the not enough flow to cool critical part, which lead to higher temperature to increase wear. Why not make sure the limited amount of ATF that does get to those problem parts can survive the harsher temperature?

fsttyms1

because there just isnt enough fluid flow there to do any thing. the parts tere were just designed wrong and are high wear parts. they wernt designed larg enough. If they were the same size as some of the other clutchpacks it wouldnt be a issue i bet.