SilverUA5

Owner's manual said to use 5W-20, but at acura.com, they recommend 5W-30........what's up with that?

samkws

5W-20 is recommended by acura...
but hard to find in stores...it's kinda new

5W-30 is more thick i guess....it's more heavy duty...is that rite?

J.T.'s 3.2CL

Our owner's manuel recommends 5w-30

SilverUA5

My manual (2003) recommends 5W-20.

samkws

they started using 5w-20 for 2002+ models

gohawks63

I believe the TL-S requires 5w-20 and all other versions of the TL ('99-'01 & '02-'03 TL-P) require 5w-30.

5w-30 is not heavier duty, it is just a little thicker when it warms up than 5w-20.

I'm guessing that with the modifications made to the 3.2 engine for the TL-S, the 5w-20 is recommended to lubricate through the tight tolerances in the engine.

Follow what it says in the owners manual. Period.

TLover8888

5w-20 is recommended primarily for gas-saving purposes, not engine wear purposes. 5W-20 is really a bunch of bull****...just stick with 5W-30, it wont hurt the engine.

gohawks63

I'd have to disagree. Why then do they recommend different grades of oil for the TL-P and the TL-S? Are they just concerned with improving gas mileage on the TL-S. So by using your arguement, there is no inherent lubrication benefits/differences between 5w-30, 10w-30, 10w-40, or 5w-20?

Go ahead, keep telling yourself that. I still stand by following the manfacturers recommendations. They know the engine's requirements better than you or I do.

TLover8888

then why all of a sudden has 5W-20 been invented? if it has such good benefits, then why hasnt it been around for a lot longer? think about it...all of a sudden the 2003 reqiure 5W-20 but the previous TL's with the SAME EXACT ENGINE require 5W-30? yes, they are concerned with conserving gas with the TL-S because the car wouldnt sound appealing to gas-conscious consumers and the requirements of the federal government concerning gas-guzzling vehicles. the lubrication properties in 5W-20 are also present in 5W-30, but just its better in gas conservation. since you dont know anything about oil, 5W-20 is actually a little "thinner" than 5W-30 so engine wear is actually INCREASED with 5W-20...

look at these 2 links:

http://www.performanceoiltechnology.com/ford5w20.htm
(pay attention to the first 2 Q & A's)

http://www.startribune.com/stories/432/405074.html
(pay attention to the first Q & A)


but believe whatever you want...

1999TL

hit em up TL lover.

scole

To clear up some bad info, 5w-20 is recommended for both the TL-P and TL-S for 2002+.

The 5w-20 is a thinner oil and it is my opinion that they did this for improved gas milage ratings. The thinner oil causes less motor resistance. Which is the best to use, that will always be debated. Personally I use the 5w-20, since that is what is recommended in the owners manual. They stock the oil at the local Xpress Lubes, which use Havoline oil. The thinner oil doen't bother me. I religously change it every 3750, so thickness is no big deal. Motor parts only need a layer of oil for protection. As long as the oil is thick enough to handle the heat it is subjected to without breaking down, it will do its job.

A person who changes their oil as recommended will not see a difference between these two oils when it somes to the life of the motor. The person who misses oil changes from time to time could defintely see a shorter engine life when user the thinner oil. The thinner oil will breakdown sooner than the thicker oil, since it is more sensitive to heat. Thus, running it more than the recommended distance could cause the thin oil to breakdown and damage the motor. For most people on this board, the 5w-20 will be all the protection they need because they generally take good care of their car. If you are going to neglect the car use the thicker oil, it will be more forgiven to extended miles between oil changes.

Hope this helps.

gohawks63

The owner's manual does not tell you that you have to use the Honda oil. It says 5w-20.

I don't dispute that the thinner oil will give you better gas mileage, but I also don't thing that the mileage ratings have changed from the '99-'01 models and the '02+ models. Carpoint lists the fuel economy as identical from '01-'02. So where are the fuel economy benefts from switching to the thinner oil?

Today's engine's have tighter tolerances that make it difficult for oil to get into. The thinner oil actually helps it circulate through those tolerances better. If visosity (sp?) doesn't make a difference, and to use your logic we could all put the same old 10w-40 that I used to put in my old '78 Impala in the TL with no ill effects? huh? I'm not about to risk it just to save a few pennies.

At the very least, I'd follow the manual to avoid any warranty problems with the manufacturer in the event of a failure.

tdoh

Like many of you have noted, 5W-20 is the recommended oil per the Acura owner's manual. Note the word "recommended"--not the same as "required". You will also note that the same owner's manual also indicates that 5W-30 can be used, IIRC.

And as far as warranty issues go, more than a few Acura dealers are using 5W-30 in TL/TL-S oil changes. I doubt that the dealer would be using it if they felt a warranty issue could arise from the use of such.

Tighter engine tolerances or not, I would think that with the way people love revving past VTEC rpm, using a lower viscosity oil wouldn't be the best thing to do. I mean, I could be mistaken but I don't think Porsche or BMW are using 5W-20 in their sports cars/sedans...are you going to say that the engine tolerances in those vehicles aren't as tight as that in the TL-S?

Plain and simple, the primary benefit of using a lower weight oil is fuel economy. Don't think so? Just look at the API ratings on a lower weight oil (e.g., 5-20, 10-30) and then look at the ratings on a higher weight (e.g., 10W-40 or 20W-50)--notice that the lower weight oils have "Energy Conserving II" or similar, whereas the higher weight oils (mostly the 50-weights) have no such designation.

Tony

TLover8888

so, then why does the previous year TL's engine require 5W-30 and this year's TL require 5W-20, yet they are the same exact engine???? these tighter tolerances all of a sudden appear in this year's model, and not last year's????

gohawks63

No one has answeresd my question. Why haven't the fuel mileage ratings then changed from '01 to '02?

TLover8888

but you havent answered mine either...the "tolerances" that you described that are present in this year's TL but not in the last year's TL, but are the same engines in both years...how so????

gohawks63

I asked first, but I'll go ahead. All the hype was that the '02 models supposedly had over "500 improvements" over previous models. I'm guessing that modifications were made to the engine that prompted Honda/Acura to recomment using 5w-20 oil, since there isn't any change in fuel mileage, is there? I also asked you if it would be OK to put 10w-40 in your car since many of you seem to think that viscosity (sp?) doesn't matter.

gohawks63

This article is pretty interesting. It mentions that 5w-20 flows better, but you can get away with going with a higher viscosity oil, although you could run into cooling issues. I'm guessing with the minimal differences between the two grades, you should be fine.

One interesting point though is that they mention that while it is OK to sometimes go with a higher viscosity oil, you should not go with a lower weight oil or you risk engine damage.

My point is that for Honda to recommend a lower weigh oil, there must be a reason, 'cause by doing so "just to improve gas mileage" might risk engine damage.

Again I reiterate, I highly doubt Honda recommends the lower weight oil just for gas mileage purposes, especially since there isn't any improvements in gas mileage from '01-'02.

tdoh

goaub--here are my counterpoints, which BTW aren't meant to be a flame towards you:

Regarding the 500 or so improvements that the '02 models had over the previous year--I assume that you're talking about the TL-S since you mentioned that 5w-20 oil is used only in the Type-S (as far as this discussion goes). Although the base engine in the TL-S and TL-P is the same, keep in mind that the Type-S with its performance-oriented engine characteristics did not come out until '02; therefore, to ask why the fuel economy ratings did not change from '01 to '02 is not a valid question, since you are sorta comparing apples and oranges (cannot compare '02 Type-S fuel economy to '01 since there was no such thing as a TL-S in '01). Granted I don't know if the power/torque curves between a Type-S and and a P are identical up until 5K rpm but I would imagine that they may be a tad different even before that point. In any case, I would imagine that perhaps one or more of the 500 "improvements" may have had enough of an adverse affect on fuel economy that Acura decided to use a lighter-weight oil (5w-20) to compensate. "Why bother?", you may ask--well, auto manufacturers have to meet a federal mandate where the average fuel economy for all of their models combined must be a minimum value (e.g., 22 mpg--I'm not saying that this is the actual value, just offering it as an example). I don't know if it applies to imports but it does apply to domestic carmakers.

As far as following what is recommended in the owner's manual, I reiterate--IIRC the manual says that you can get away with using 5w-30 unless you live in a really cold climate. Also--as someone else here mentioned, acura.com itself says that it's okay to use (substitute?) 5w-30. Finally, if the manufacturer knows the engine requirements better than you or I do, perhaps they need to go tell that to the more than a few Acura dealers out there that are putting in 5w-30 motor oil in TL-Ss. Surely the Acura dealers must know something too; otherwise they'd be putting in 5w-20--no ifs, ands, or buts.

If 5w-20 was readily available at your neighborhood Kragens or Pep Boys, I'm sure that the DIY mechanics here on this board would use it in a heartbeat. But to imply that using anything other than that is just plain stupid--that's a bit too much. I'm not advocating that people can now dump 10w-40 into their Type-S engines, just that there are some tolerances as to what you can get away with. Now, I think more than a few people don't follow everything that is said in the owner's manual to a T; otherwise we shouldn't be putting on aftermarket rims/tires, or installing headers and CAIs and exhausts, right? We shouldn't be using Purolator or Mobil oil filters instead of the Honda one, since nowhere does it say that you can use those, right? Well, I don't know that for a fact since I don't have the owner's manual right in front of me but it wouldn't surprise me if the manual states that only a genuine Honda oil filter (or for that matter, a genuine Honda air filter if you're changing that out) should be used...

Tony

jean

I agree...!!!!!
Buy the best oil you can afford...Mobil 1 at the very least...
Judging from the other recent threads on oil.
Protect your engine.....red line is so easy to get to...!!!!

SpoonPower78

How about using both? - 5W-20 in the summer and 5W-30 in the winter.

SpoonPower78

oops, I meant vice versa

gohawks63

No problem. This is a discussion board and we're having a discussion. One of the more mature ones I've noticed in a while.


As for my earlier comment that only the TL-S requires 5w-20, my bad. I own a '01 so I don't have access to the manuals for the '02 models (both TL-P or TL-S). I assumed that only the TL-S required 5w-20. Since both models require it, wouldn't it shoot a hole in your theory that the modifications made to the TL-S engine alone dropped the fuel economy?

I'm well aware that the TL-S and the "500 improvements" were effective as of the '02 model year. As for comparing the two model years, I stand by that comparison since the fuel mileage ratings for both the TL-S & TL-P are identical to the '00 & '01 models, which as you are well aware only have the 225hp engine. Since the '02 TL-S & TL-P have identical mileage ratings, it doesn't seem as though the engine modifications made to the TL-S affected the overall fuel consumption. Taking the TL-S out of the discussion, if the 5w-20 oil was recommended in '02 to improve the fuel economy, why then do both the '01 TL and the '02 TL-P have identical fuel consumption ratings?


I believe imports must comply also. I'm no engineer, but I can't believe that 5w-20 vs. 5w-30 would have an impact greater than maybe 1 mpg in fuel consumption. In addition, I don't know if the CAFE standards apply to the parent company (i.e. Honda, GM, Ford, etc.) or apply seperately to brand names (i.e. Acura, Infiniti, Mercury, Chevy, Cadillac, etc.). Assuming that the CAFE standards apply to the parent company, I have to believe that with the Civic and Insight, Honda is having no problems complying to those standards.



Good point.

Don't put words in my mouth now. Never did I say it was stupid. All I said is that I would follow the recommendations in the owner's manual. NEVER did I say it was stupid to do otherwise.

I mentioned that as a response to someone else who implied that oil viscosity was not important.

Agreed.

Of course Honda is going to recommend that you buy their products, but I do believe that they also state that if you don't use a Honda brand name, you use a comparable product (i.e tranny oil, brake fluid, etc.).

One final note that points to the flaw that everyone is arguing that 5w30 can be used in warmer temps while 5w20 is for cooler temps. As most know, the first part of the number (5w) refers to the oil viscosity when cold, the second number is the viscosity when the oil is heated. Both 5w20 & 5w30 will have the same viscosity at startup, and therefore have the same lubrication qualities. It's only after the engine has warmed up where there is a difference and the 5w20 will flow better. This explains why my manual ('01) states that 5w-30 is preferred, but 10w-30 can be used as long as the ambient temp NEVER falls below 20 degrees F. Since I don't have access to an '02 manual, I don't know what the recommendations are based on temps.

In summary while admitting that I'm not an engineer, as I stated earlier, I can't believe 5w20 will give you an appreciable improvement in gas mileage, so I'm left to believe that Honda recommends 5w20 for it's lubrication benefits. As to why some dealers are using 5w30, I can guess that they (a) either have the same difficulties getting the oil or (b) don't want to bother with storing two different grades of oil, especially since they store their oil in tanks.

All I'm saying is that if I owned an '02, I'd put in 5w20. Just like I use 5w30, even though my manual says I can get away with using 10w30, when it's warm.

Again, just my $0.02.

Good discussion...

George

TLover8888

are you talking about moi? :p

anyway, maybe you dont see a difference in fuel economy because of the 5W-20...because of the "500 improvements," maybe the fuel economy is worse than the previous year TL's and to compensate for it, acura states that the owner should use 5W-20, in order to achieve the same fuel economy as the previous year TL's

tdoh

Yes, it would...perhaps the performance differences between the S and P engines aren't a factor when it comes to fuel economy testing. The more interesting question to be asked is: why did Acura switch to 5w-20 (I don't know when but I guess it began with the '02 models?)? You say perhaps tighter engine tolerances may have been a factor; maybe so, but what is so special about the '02 engines that it ideally needs 5w-20? Not many cars out there today require it...
Who knows? Like I said, it depends on how the Feds test fuel economy. Plus, you said that the '01 TL and '02 TL-P have identical fuel economy ratings; however, who's to say that the '01 TL and '02 TL-P are identical in every way?

Having said that, I will say this one thing regarding using 5w-20 and fuel economy, which BTW is taken directly from the '02 TL owner's manual:

"5w-20 is formulated for year-round protection of your Acura, to improve cold weather starting, and to help your engine use less fuel."

So, according to Acura themselves, one of the benefits of using 5w-20 is less fuel consumption. Sure, it doesn't answer your question regarding why the fuel economy ratings for an '02 TL using 5w-20 are the same as those for an '01 TL using 5w-30 (again, I assume that 5w-30 was the recommended oil since I don't have access to an '01 manual), but Acura's statement in the owner's manual regarding the use of 5w-20 clearly implies that to deviate from that could adversely fuel economy.
I would agree here...of course I never stated as to how much of an impact on fuel economy different oil weights have, but that there is an impact, which I would imagine would be much greater when comparing let's say 5w-20 to 20w-50.
I never said that you said that it was stupid; just that your statement (perhaps the way you said it, or maybe the "inflection" of how you said it) about following recommendations could make one infer that doing otherwise would be totally foolish (okay, maybe I should have used a different word than "stupid" but still...)
Since you like preaching about adhering to what is stated in the owner's manual, ponder this statement found in the owner's manual:

"It is highly recommended that you use Honda Motor Oil in your vehicle for as long as you own it."

The funny thing about that is that although the manual states that you should use Honda Motor Oil, nowhere in the manual does it say that you have to use a Honda Oil Filter. Interesting...
'02 manual only gives temp range for 5w-20, basically implying that 5w-20 can do it all in all temps, even if you live in an area where the climate is let's say always above freezing (32 deg. F).
Like I said, I'm not saying that there is a obviously noticeable difference, especially between a 5w-20 and 5w-30, but if all other things being the same, there should be some difference, no matter how small.
I agree with you here; again, I'd put in 5w-20 if it was readily available at my nearby autoparts store in the formulation I want it in (e.g., synthetic). Since I'm not that obssessed enough to warrant ordering 5w-20 synthetic through mail-order, I will make do for now with 5w-30 Mobil-1. You may think I'm tempting fate by using anything other than 5w-20 but I feel safe considering the fact that the '02 manual says I can get away with using 5w-30, plus that is what more than a few Acura dealers are putting in.
I agree; a discussion without any mudslinging or name-calling...

Tony

gohawks63

Acura began recommending 5w20 with the '02 models. I have an '01 and the manual states 5w30 to be used and 10w30 can be substituted ONLY if "the ambient temperature does not drop below 20 degrees F".

Good question, especially since HP, torque and fuel economy ratings have not changed from the '01 to the '02 TL-P. All '00 and up TLs share the same fuel economy ratings, and I believe the only reason why the '99 is different is because it has the 4 speed tranny.

That's the million dollar question isn't it? Does anyone have access to any Honda engineers?

As I mentioned previously, 5w30 is recommended for the '99-'01 models.

I agree, but it just seems odd to me that Acura would recommend a completely different grade of oil that they have recommended in the past. Especially with no difference in fuel economy. I'm guessing Acura recommends 5w30 in the rest of their models. Can anyone out there with an RL, RSX or MDX fill us in on what the manual states is the recommnended grade of oil? What would confuse this matter further is if 5w-30 is recommended for all the other engine's and only the '02 & '03 TL has the 5w20 recommendation.

I missed that in my manual and I'm too lazy to go check now. I know that I've heard many say that you should use Honda tranny oil since they put a special additive in there to help with smooth shifting. Do you think their oil would have an exclusive additive? I doubt it, but I agree that it is interesting that they don't stress the filter also.

The fact that the '01 manual does say that you can deviate from the recommended 5w30 (temperature permitting), and the fact that you are not given the same information in the '02 peaks my interest even more.

I have no idea of the scarcity of 5w20, and no I don't think you're tempting fate. My only point at the beginning of this thread was that if I walked into an auto parts store, and 5w20 and 5w30 were sitting next to each other on the shelf, I'd go with what the manual recommends, even if the 5w20 was more expensive. Since you're using synthetics, cost is obviously not an issue with you. The fact that 5w20 is difficult to find just adds another wrinkle to all of this.

Do you think we've beaten this horse enough?

tdoh

[QUOTE]Originally posted by goaub
'02 manual also says that you should use only Honda brake, power steering, and coolant fluid; other brands can be used as a temporary/emergency solution but continued use of such may lead to problems. IOW--the manual is basically saying that if you don't use Honda-branded fluids you might have problems down the road. Now, whether or not these recommendations are just scare tactics, I dunno...

Maybe Honda is doing a marketing experiment to see if there may be a wide interest for marketing 5w-20. Like I said, I don't know of any other manufacturer that requires it in one or more of their vehicle models.

I agree with choosing 5w-20 over 5w-30 if it was readily available. As far as my using synthetics I've never used synthetics before, so I guess I must have been assimilated into the pro-synthetic users group. I figure that since the TL-S is my first performance-oriented vehicle (well, I had a '96 GS-R but IMHO an '02 TL-S is a bit more advanced in the engine department than a '96, GS-R or no) I might as well treat her really well...

I dunno, the horse don't look dead yet...