happy

Just picked up a new 325i auto for my sister. I drove it around town to compare it against my TLS. On the smoothness and luxury front 325i kicks ass. The auto tranny is so smooth and engine sound sounds really nice. The car comes well with well tuned intake and exhaust. Handling is well balanced (50/50 weight distribution). They even put the battery in the trunk instead of under the hood. Overall feeling while driving is very solid and worth 5K more than TLS. While it lacks in raw power and cabin room, all other aspects were a notch better.

vandy786

The most important features to me WERE raw power and cabin room, as well as value. I also doubt that the BMW is more reliable than an Acura.

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2002 TL Type S w/o Navi
Diamond White Pearl
Parchment Interior

DJ Iceman

Right... You just picked up your new car and you've already had it to the track to determine that the 50/50 weight distribution gives it great handling? I think not. This is the usual marketing/brainwashing effect. People think BMWs are performance cars, therefore they brag about the performance. As far as "quality" and "feel" go, I'm glad you think the 325 is better than the TL--you probably won't find many people on this board who agree with you.

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Why doesn't everybody make cars as well as Acura?

Avirex34

im with you vandy....the reliablility on BMW's are the worst. had a 525i and it was horrible window switches and everything had to be replaced. terrible, just terrible.

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96 Lexus LS400
2002 Satin Silver TL-S W/Nav

• Ebony interior wood kit
• Ebony wood/leather steering wheel
• 20% tint
• Boston Acoustic speakers+tweeters
• Kenwood 12" tube
• OEM Body Kit

.......more to come

sboje

bla bla bla. Attack the guy who doesn't tout the TL-S as the ultimate supremo car on the planet. Its funny how everyone on the planet EXCEPT the owners in this forum would agree on at least some of his points. Please learn to accept the fact that for $30k, you didn't get Lexus reliablility, Mercedes S class luxury and Porsche handling with McClaren F1 acceleration.

You don't need to go to a track to find out if the weight distribution and RWD makes a difference. All you have to do is go around 1 corner. If you can't tell the difference, you are inexperienced or numb, and you did the right thing by saving the money.

Now as far as if the BMW is worth $5k extra, that depends on your priorities. If driving enjoyment is at the top of your list, the BMW is the clear winner. If it is reliability or balls to the wall acceleration, it isn't.

Finally, few 325s cost $5k more than a TL-S. I can get a 330i for that. Depends on how you want it equipped (sp?).

derrick

I think everyone is entitled to their own opinion. However, the thought of someone bad-mouthing the car we chose to drive as inferior to a competitor... I know many (even myself to a certain degree) will become defensive.

I have to agree with sboje to a certain extent. Hey, happy was having fun driving his sister's 325i. Big deal. He likes the ride. If I went over to a BMW board and touted how great my Type-S is, I'm sure I will get more than my fair share of flames.

Bottomline: if you're going to throw stones at a glass house... you get the picture... Let's hope that's the end of this thread.

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2002 TL eternal blue Type-S. factory spoiler, no navi, no mods yet...

ZodiakTL

no reason to be a hater. if u've driven a bwm recently, u notice the near 50/50 weight distribution right away. it reflects in car pickup off the line, nose dive(or the lack of) when braking, and definitely during cornering where it feels a lot better. and the car feels a lot more solid then the TL/TL-S. That being said, i still find the 3-series too small for me, and for any passengers other than the one in the front seat, and the 5-series (530 or 540) to be too expensive. But price aside, i believe that the bimmer is a nicer car to drive around, unfortunately not everyone can afford one.


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'02 Nighthawk TL-S
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Comptech Springs / Comptech Headers / Mille Miglia Action 17x8 Rims with Bridgestone Potenza RE730's 235/45/17 tires
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Alpine CVA-1005 Head Unit / Alpine CDA-7863 CD Player / Alpine G320 EQ / Alpine DVA-5205 DVD / Alpine NVE-N851A Navi / JL Audio XR653-CS 3-Way comps for the front powered by a bridged Alpine MRV-F407 amp / Boston Acoustics 5.5 ProSeries 2-Way comps for the rear powered by Alpine MRV-1002 amp / Dual 10" JL Audio W-6 sub powered by Alpine MRV-1005 amp / Two Alpine CHA-1214 CD Changers / 20% Tint all-around

__________________
'00 Nighthawk TL
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Aem Short Ram / Comptech Sway Bars / Comptech Springs / Cross-Drilled Rotors / Pirelli SP7000 Tires / 35% Tint all-around
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Pics of my TL and Fun/Crazy Pics

sboje

Derrick,

I just don't think he was throwing stones, and he owns a TL-S, so I don't understand what the problem is.

RedLined

I don't know if it was the 50/50 weight distribution, the RWD, or what but I must agree that a 330/325 is a blast to drive. I love my TL-S and the way it rides/handles but it just doesn't have the confidence inspiring feel the BMW had.

Also, I'm sure anyone in the Acura marketing department will tell you that Acura is striving to be the BMW of Japan. At least that's what all their reps are saying. I think that speaks volumes about the BMW automobiles.

AKRY

Inline-six(2.5, 2.8L/3.0L)from BMW is smooth, the newer tranny(Steptronic)used on BMW is also very smooth and well gear(on most models). I have to agree that TL-S could have done better in these areas.

HOWEVER, I do agree that 50/50 is in some way, overrated.

Andy Kuo

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'92 Mercedes-Benz 400SE
Pearl Grey/Black

'02 Acura TL-S
Satin Silver/Ebony, w/out NAV

happy

Chill out folks, I wasn't bad mouthing TLS. I love my ride as much you all do. I just wanted to share that Bimmers are really great cars as well with different strengths and weaknesses. I was just a little surprised from the way the car actually felt on the road vs. just comparing the specs on paper. As we were signing off on the deal at the dealership they recommended a extended maintenance contract hinting that it was a good idea since the routine 38K mile maintenace would cost $1300 bucks! I was shocked at the cost of ownership for bimmers. 3 year free maintenance is really just couple of oil changes since they recommend drain interval of 15K miles. That was an instant turn off for me to own a bimmer. They are for people with cash to burn and I'm not quite there yet...

chiawei

1. Bimmer's free maintanance works like this. Your schedule is based on the indicators on your dash. So if you drives the car hard, chances are that the more expansive Inspection II are covered before your time is up. So it's not really based on mileage

2. one more thing to watch out is that its a known fact that new in-line 6 eats about 1 quart of oil after 5000 miles. Please make sure to check oil at around 5000 miles. Always use Mobil 1 Synthetic as this is the oil that BMW comes with. I do not suggest you to swtich brand. Also, if you like to feel more comfortable, replace the oil every 7000 miles would be okay.

For all other bimmer related question, please go to bimmer.org.



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1998-Sienna
2000-Laguna Green TL
2001-Burnished Gold RX300
2001-BrilliantSilver C320
2001-Titanium Silver 530i

DJ Iceman

I don't mean to come across as a "hater". I drive a BMW, and don't even own a TL. I just hate to see so many people sucked into the marketing myth that Bimmers are the ultimate driving machines. I would be very disappointed to hear any Acura employee aspiring to be the "BMW of Japan".

Acura is not superior to BMW in every regard, but IN MY OPINION, overall they provide a superior product for a much better price.

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Why doesn't everybody make cars as well as Acura?

RX-72ATL-S

I know someone with a 323i sport/prem package. Very nice, handles well with the 17's. Kind of cramped in back, and somewhat slow.(Not bad though)
I've heard from several people that the E46 is a sloppy pig also. It's bigger and has a smoother suspension. Once again I really don't care. My TL-S handles well with the 17's and has a tight feel. It's not cramped, and it's fast for what it is, if you ask me.

Now my next point may come to a surprise to some, but it's a FAMILY SEDAN. It's not a 2800lb two seater sport car with 50/50 weight distribution, and can do 0-60 in 5 seconds, wind through the twisties, and stop on a dime.


Will there ever be an end to this BMW/TLS discussion????????????????



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Jeremy
2002 Satin Silver w/Navi

Guest

However, most of the best handling cars ARE rear-wheel drive.

sboje

Closer, that's an interesting statement. Please show us your list of the BEST handling cars (including F1 etc) that aren't close to 50/50. Price no object.. not the best handling cheap cars.

McClaren, BMW, Porsche... these guys are idiots. They should have followed the Honda Accord model for ultimate handling. Yeah right... give me a break.

I do wonder if BMW goes too far. With the battery in the back, how much extra weight do the cables add?

Guest

F1 cars, Le Mans cars, etc. are probably not anywhere close to 50-50, because they are rear-engined and RWD. But with RWD, a little more weight at the back is good, because it means more traction under acceleration. FWD throws that away no matter what the weight distro is.

91M5

Batteries weigh a lot and many cars mount them at the very front of the engine bay. Many newer ones have at least moved them to the firewall. In my M5 it is under the backseat.

I noticed in a picture of a new M3's engine bay that you can barely see two of the six throttle bodies as the engine is moved so far back towards the middle of the car. At the edge of adhesion, this does make a huge difference. Even more important, quick transitions are much more predictable and don't tend to unsettle the car.

With all the new, cheap HP around, people seem to forget that many BMW fanatics started out driving 2002's and 325i's and loved them depsite not much power.

Jacobian

I'm sure the engine sounds nice.. You can really hear it in the BMW with the crappy insulation in the 3 series. In fact.. after a while.. all you hear is the damn engine noise.. it's annoying!

I was just about to finish the paperwork on the 330xi I was planning to purchase when I test drove the TLS.

Needless to say I'm finalizing the deal on my TLS. Anyway...

Erik

sboje

Hmmm. I recall the 3 series being quiter than the TL-S on the highway. Less road noise anyway. They definitely made the exhaust a little louder on the 3l engines though. I have a sound pressure level meter. I will try to test them out and provide the hard facts (in a 328).

Back to weight distribution. I just spent the last 45 minutes reading all sorts of articles about weight distribution. There is no doubt in my mind now that it matters, and suspesion components/tire pressures can't make up for all of the inadequacies of a suboptimally ballanced car. Period. That said, I have no idea what the left/right weight distribution of the BMWs are, but that matters also.

The Formula 1 cars are mid-engined.

Guest

Yes, the new I6's do tend to lose about a quart in the first 5000, so make sure to check it. However, BMW uses Castrol Synthetic, not Mobil 1.

Closer

Too many people confuse 50/50 with a well tuned suspension.
If you've driven a Type-R and didn't pay attention to the
torque steer, you'd think it was 50/50 also. Most of
the best handling cars, are 'NOT' 50/50.

ucla107

BMW ARE great to drive... I ALMOST got a 325CI over the TL-S... i was back and forth between the Acura and BMW dealer before i bought my TL.. (since they're only a block apart)

Honestly it all came down to the price as for me. I kept debating between the 325 and the TL-S, and I finally decided on the TL-S cuz for the same price I get a car with more power, Navi, Xenon, and my favorite pearl white.... The 325 I looked at has the premium package, Harman Kardon sound, leather, and xenon and it cost over $1500 more than the TL.. and NO CD!! 16" rims, NO navi and only 184 HP... I wanted one that goes over the 200 HP mark (silly me).. and I wanted a car that is known for dependability...

I mean I had a C class before that, and yes you can feel the difference between a RWD and a FWD.. and the brakes on German cars are better than the ones on the Acura (this is one of my biggest disappointment)... oh and btw, most german cars put their batteries in the trunk instead of the hood (at least in my C class they did)

And not to bag on BMWs.. but I saw an old 525 catch on fire on Santa Monica Blvd saturday night.... so umm yeah... I'd rather have an Acura that will last me 200k miles (like my 95 Accord that had 138k miles WITHOUT one single problem).. maybe if i have the extra bucks i'll get an "ultimate driving machine" too =P

DJ Iceman

Don't waste your money on "the ultimate marketing machine". If you want the ultimate DRIVING machine, get an NSX...

(Boy, I can't wait for the Bimmer-lovers to come after me on this one.)

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Why doesn't everybody make cars as well as Acura?

Mr.T

I like bimmers :P

acuraguynj

If you also want the utlimate safety in a car you get a BMW. It feels and is a tank. So many airbags will deploy upon impact that you will have felt you fell into bed. They really know their engineering at BMW and sometimes I think they have so many new innovations that they fall behind in making it all dependable and reliable. And that sucks big time when you spend that much money for a car and it's only sort of reliable.

Acura is a great brand, but still not in that Luxury Level yet that BMW, Lexus and Mercedes have acheived. It will take time and that damn RSX is holding us back! ;-)

I have a TL and love it, but always felt that I was stuck somewhere in the middle of your regular run of the mill brands like Honda & Toyota and below Lexus & BMW.

Let's all just admit that we love the name brand recognition whether we like it or not. I like the Acura name and I don't want to go back to a Honda for my next car, the only place to go is UP!

Guest

My two cents:

I use to own an Acura 99TL. I loved the car, but I would have liked to see better fit and finish. Too many minor problems.

I definitely don't like Acura's dealerships, and their sales & service people (rude, arrogant, plain old stupid, I could go on...) For me the after service is part of owning a car, and if that's not up to par, then that's a strike against the car itself. Acura themselves don't seem to care much about customer service, since they never bothered contacting me when I specifically requested so, on the statisfaction questionnaire. They also seemed less interested in resolving vehicle issues, saying it "was been me and the dealership." So much for standing behind their product.


The Acura overall is a fine car, and I would consider it a luxury car. For the price it is a bargain, and worth every penny. For me the performance was great, the acceleration, and everything else was good.

However, when it came time to buying a new car I had to go with the BMW 325i. The car is selling here for the same price as a TLS. Albeit it doesn't have all the features of the TL. But it is better in certain respects, and feels much more solid. The car looks good and feels good. The dealership guys were also nice to deal with. I also checked the tech bulletins for the BMW and Acura, and BMW seems much more reliable, especially with their 3 series. So yes I am convert, but I will always have a place in my heart for the TL.

SL1200MK4

enough said... May I quote you when I try to explain the concept of value = utility/cost to somebody next time?

SL1200MK4

Man, I know how you feel. Don't know which dealer you went to in Toronto, but I tried 3 of them and they all sucked!!! I think Acura Canada really don't care much after you buy the car, so is the dealer. Well, well, I wish I have chosen the Bimmer instead.

vandy786

I could say the exact same about some of the BMW dealerships I have been to. Since I am only 19, two of the BMW dealers I went to were acting like I could not afford a $35K machine. So after I got my TL-S the next day, I took my friend to the BMW dealership in my new car so he could test drive the 330. They could not believe what I was driving and it was clear that they were very uncomfortable in my presence

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2002 TL Type S w/o Navi
Diamond White Pearl
Parchment Interior

RUF87

I love my TLS!

However, I was going BMW 330I until the "economy" thing hit and I just couldn't justify the extra $10K+ for it. Sniff . . I was waiting two years and just bailed.

And if money were not an issue, I would be driving the M3 4dr or the M5. I can still dream, but in the meantime, I love my TLS!

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2002 TLS WDP w/Ebony interior
Formula 1 35% Premier Tint

hunter001

I am writing this from Munich, Germany...will be here until the 28th...will be visiting the BMW museum this weekend.

Here every single taxi that I see is a Mercedes E-class...from the airport, I got transported in a BMW 5-series taxicab....

But the 5-series etc that you find here are mostly 520s which probably means, they have a 2.0L engine (4 banger ??)...

But the fact of the matter is that BMWs are terrific handlers in dry weather. Good chassis tuning, along with excellent steering feel (except the newer 3-series) and the vaunted 50:50 weight distribution accounts for very good handling and also gives the feel of excellent handling.

Incidentally, among the Hondas, the Acura NSX and the Honda S2000 are RWD with 50:50 weight distribution and mid-engined ...so essentially the car would turn like a "top" in the curves....very low polar moment of inertia...


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2000 Naples Gold 3.2TL/Navi - Factory Stock but with up-graded tires

doopstr

I like my friends 325 but the reliability of the car is horrible. It's in the shop atleast 3 times a year, and I'm not talking oil changes or brake pads.

We tried the 325 and liked it but decided it was too small and went with the TL because it had a balance of many factors.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">[This message has been edited by doopstr on June 19, 2001 @ ]</font>