kirbyflorida

How heavy will this car be????

Rexorg

My bad. You are correct. I should have checked my numbers, but I do have Old Timers. Here is the source: http://www.hondanews.com/categories/804/releases/4268

Rexorg

Honda/Acura is only reacting to what people want in their cars, even if it is a subcompact. The '09 Fit is going to have navi and glass roof options according to the spy pics. http://www.leftlanenews.com/2009-honda-fit.html We will know for sure when the car is introduced on 17 October in Toyko. The line between entry-level to flagship is being blurred more and more.

TampaRLX-SH

I would have to agree here Larry. As much as we in North America are finding the RL long in the tooth, and desire changes to improve sales and compete better, the RL / LEGEND has just been introduced in some markets (i.e Australia, New Zealand) and only a year out in other European and South America markets. A significant change on the LEGEND to a newly introduced market does not make sense from the ROW perspective. I have not been privy to any global sales volumes, but when I was in Japan a few weeks ago, it was apparent to me that, though Honda acknowledges poor sales, it was not in any panic over the sales totals. In fact they did not expect it to sell as many the 1st year which resulted in 3 shifts at the Sayama to keep up. There was chatter about using the Acura brand more globally for acceptance of the high end LEGEND does not fit the business model and market perception of the Honda brand.

Since the Acura brand introduction was also deferred to 2010, I would suspect a new gen RL / LEGEND to coincide with that timeframe as the Acura brand would then have all new gen TL and RL to introduce, while the MDX and RDX still relatively new.

In the mean time, I expect the RL will be allowed to wane in the shadows in the US & Canada with simple content changes and minor cosmetics while inventory is directed to new markets. It does not speak well for elevating the Acura brand or Acura sales...but I am thrilled my 06 model feels as fresh as the 08.

I do not know if Honda even turns a net profit on this model overal. But clearly it was the mule to introduce ACE, SHAWD, advance greener components and assembly, as well as technology integration into their products. It is clearly trickling down not only through the Acura brand, but also into Honda brand models. This is common with most manufacturers.

I expect the next gen RL to not only leapfrog the current Acura models (and advancing Honda models) but also set the bar higher for the competition. Acura has done this with the RL (SHAWD), TL(Content), MDX(SHAWD), RDX (SHAWD + Turbo). But they alwas seem to do it a bit too quietly. As soon as other manufacturers introduce similar features, they are all abuzz and Honda / Acura gets lost in that aknowledgement and the consumer acceptance.

Don Melcher

I was thinking the exact same thing today. I drove the very first BMW sold in California, and then owned a more powerful version a few years later. Over the years, I have had the oportunity to drive and own a LOT of diiferent cars. A lot of them have been fairly high performance sedans - 750IL, 300SEL 6.3, etc., etc.

I did a fairly long drive on the back roads of the Central Sierra Nevada foothills yesterday. The handling of the RL is superb. I had the ACC off so I could watch the SH-AWD display and was surprised how aggressive it is in putting power to the rear and outside wheel.

I did have the cruise on some and had another surprise - something I had never experienced with cruise before. On long steep downgrades, the cruise in the RL downshifted to reduce the speed back to the cruise setting.

Mike_TX

You may be completely right on this, Tampa.

If that's the case, I would hope they at least drop the 3.7-liter now in the MDX into the '09 RL (with appropriate tweaks for car vs. SUV use).

Actually, if they do that, slip a 6spd AT into it, perhaps upgrade the Nav (to go to HDD or solid state memory) and include XM weather, I think it would revitalize the RL and set the stage for a complete revamp in 2010. Not only that, it would mirror what they did with the TL-S, i.e., inject some steroids in its last year to pump up sales.

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csmeance

THere are posts from anyomus people at honda saying that the new tl will get the 3.7 litre from the MDX with SH-AWD for the 2009 model (redesign), this means that the RL will either be killed or will get a motor that might be the same, but turbo'ed (highly doubt) or get a rumored v8 or v10. Look, honda has upped the power in all of its ranges according to praportions, and the RL's next leap should be 4.2 litres per their .2-.3 liter increase per model redesign. TL 2003 TL-s 3.2, TL 2007 TL- 3.2, TL-S 2007 3.5, MDX 2006 - 3.5 MDX 2007 - 3.7

SpicyMikey

Where are these "posts" csmeance? I'd like to read them. You have a link?

csmeance

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...40#post1864640

post 402 down...

Mike_TX

The only fly in that ointment might be the new CAFE standards that are supposed to take effect by 2020, mandating all cars and trucks in a mfr's fleet achieve 35 mpg.

In light of that, Honda may decide it doesn't make much sense to think about V-10's or maybe even V-8's.

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TampaRLX-SH

I agree wholeheartedly Mike. Dropping the 3.7 into the RL would do a few things. It would get the RL over 300HP and likely improve performance maybe not what a TL-S will produce, but respectable). Couple that with a 6+ speed tranny (which I agree Honda is sorely behind the game in trannies) will further improve performance and likley offer better economy than the current RL drivetrain. Either of these would not require significant retooling at Sayama nor impact production of the ROW LEGEND.

I do not think the technology components will be a huge challenge. I also share your wish list for tech features. I want to see the approaching hurrican on Nav Weather as I flee!

I also believe you are spot on with CAFE. Honda prides itself as the most fuel efficient car company in America. Whether Acura V8s or V10 would impact that, not sure, but if they do not have the potential to trickle into the Honda brand without affecting that CAFE concern, I wonder how much investment they will make on V8s and V10s beyond a halo car / NSX.

And I have to say this...diesel 4s and V6s will keep Honda in CAFE parameters (60mpg & 35mpg <guesstimate>, respectively) and while utilizing ready made fossil fuels & distribution infastructure. Honda will not have the hurdles to get the hybrid volumes higher or flex fuel technology and distribution infastructure in order to satisfy CAFE. In fact I believe CAFE may have been a cause for the apparent turnaround in the V8 promises we have been hearing.

I don't doubt V8 or V10s are not to eventually be there, but as tokens and not real world solutions. Whether or not that fits the Acura brand issues remains to be seen.

But I will bet on a 3.7, 330+hp, 6+ speed, SHAWD for the current RL model before I expect to see a V8 or V10 new model launched prior to 2010.

neuronbob

If that happens, I will IMMEDIATELY buy one. I love my current RL and with a little more low-end torque, it would be even sweeter. Again, we won't know for sure for another few months what Acura plans.

busterrobertson

first of all, i want to say that i am a huge fan of acura and my family and i have a CL, 2 TLs, and a TSX.

acura has two gems with the TSX and MDX. Those two cars are great. Obviously its been said, the TSX needs more power and AWD, but that is going to happen next time. MDX needs an optional V8. It needs a V8 because every other car in its category has an optional V8.

however for acura to be on the level of benz, bmw, and audi, and even infiniti they need to change up their gameplan. It is obvious with the current generation of infiniti they have changed their gameplan to be more aggressive. The G and M are amazing vehicles and are viewed as amazing cars for their class.

With the TL, I love the car it has amazing styling, but it does not have some options available as its competitors. Compared to the new Benz C, BMW 3, the Lexus IS and Infiniti G the TL is underpowered. It needs the option of an engine at or above 300hp. Obviously many people on here will say we have enough power and gas mileage will get worse. Well that is why there are options. Every car company gives them. You cannot even get keyless start and entry with the TL. Infiniti, Lexus, even Nissan offers that. Luxury cars are meant to have have a notion of excess.

Benz is the best example of excess. Mercedes offers the greatest options in their cars. A car that inflates sidebolsters when you turn it amazing. I know some people said Acura should not be like Mercedes. But really, is there any other option for Acura? Lexus, BMW, and Infiniti are doing it. The first two are already there, and Infiniti is catching up. For instance the M has amazing performance, amazing interior, and can even play DVDs on the nav screen.

Acura sells the least amount of cars compared to benz, bmw, infiniti, and lexus. It may be due to the fact that acura has 5 cars in their lineup. while mercedes offers 15 different models. Im not saying Acura needs more that many models, but they do not offer a convertible or even a coupe. Personally i think thats ridiculous. They also do not attract the people that want AMG, or M of BMW.

Ok and now I can expect that many people are going to tell me why are you trolling here? why dont you just go and get a benz instead of an acura? Well I love acura and ive been riding in acuras since 1997. I know they are innovative with technology in the MDX and the Legend back in its day. But really they have got to change something because their sales are going to continue to be lower compared to the other companies. I think Acura should at least offer the technology that is available in Toyota cars and Nissan cars. My girlfriend has a 2003 4runner with auto lights, and the TL didn't even have that until this year? Nissan has the keyless ignition on their Altima, and that is not an option for the TL. So yes things must change. Acura is a great company, but unfortunately not the best. They do have the possibility to become the best if begin to change their models.

Mike_TX

+1

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Mike_TX

I think for a 20 yr-old (no offense to youth) you have a good perspective of things in the marketing biz. But the car biz is just a little different sometimes.

For instance, Honda isn't a "me, too" car company. They want to be innovators, not followers, and I think they often avoid certain trendy things just so they won't be perceived as copying others. They obviously have the technology for keyless start, since the RL has had it for years. Interestingly, though, they didn't do keyless the same way others did ... no pushbutton start - you still have to twist a stubby permanent "key". Why? I don't know - ask Honda.

And of course, anybody can play video on the Nav screen if they want to. Ditto for hard drive storage for sound systems, rain-sensing wipers and a lot of other "goodies". But Honda has chosen not to follow the others.

What they HAVE done is to blaze the trail in other areas, like SH-AWD, advanced Nav systems, superior keyless entry (in the RL), DVD-Audio, ANC, and other things.

But right or wrong, they have made the decision so far to stay out of the V-8 business, even though they could whip out a competitive V-8 in a heartbeat (relatively speaking) if they wanted to. In fact, I'm pretty sure they have a suitable one on the shelf already.

We just have to wait and see what they decide to give us.

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TampaRLX-SH

Keyless entry on the RL is actually a compromise. The LEGEND markets do not accept or tolerate keyless start so a key is required on the LEGEND. Acura doctured up the key crank with the keyless knob to appeal to the North American market.

The touch sensor door handles are specific and slick, abeit some issues reported.

Honda also introduced night vision for the RL before other manufacturers, but have some reason it is yet to be offered here. Further forward view / cornering cameras can be had on JDM LEGENDs.

The LEGEND / RL straddles a lot of market specific wants and needs. That may be the achilles heal of this car so few of us appreciate.

Power1Pete

In the UK, even the Accord has self steering cruise control and rain sensing wipers.

Mike_TX

Self steering cruise control?

You mean it steers itself around other cars, or what? How does it know there are other lanes to steer into? Yikes. That scares me!

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busterrobertson

Oh trust me i know that honda/acura is an innovator, which is why i hold them to such a high standard. They were the first with a nav that knows where the sun is and keeps that side of the car cooler automatically, they were the first to impliment the nav traffic into their cars, the TL was the first car with bluetooth standard, and probebly the best innovation is the wonderful SH-AWD. (go here: http://www.autoblog.com/ and scroll down to read how much better the SH-AWD performed). The NSX was the first all aluminum car (or something along those lines). So I know that acura is capable of being the best.

But at certain times, new innovations become the standard in a business. example - the navtraffic is available on many of the luxury brands. Acura needs to adapt to those standards and take them a step further like they did with the SH-AWD.

To say that acura is not a "me too" company, I think that is true. No other company offers fully loaded cars like they do, and they do innovate. But giving multiple engines, suspensions, and adding technology is not a "me too" move. I feel it is a move that moves Acura further ahead of its competition. Example, if Acura gave the MDX an optional V8. The people who went for the FX45, ML550, and BMW X5 4.8 would give the MDX much more attention.

And I do feel that acura and infiniti have pushed and pressured the german automakers to put more attention and innovation into their cars, specifically the Mercedes C-class.

I know some of these options may seem petty, but its just nice to have them. An example is the radio that says what the name is, i really expected it to be on the TL with the DVD-Audio. (But im not sure if it is in the MDX or RL). Once again i feel the keyless ignition and entry is a must for certain models specifcally the TL and MDX. Another one is a 6 speed automatic.

And ofcourse with the V8/V10, they have created those engines with the race cars that they make. Honda/Acura needs to exploit that.

And yes i know that acura's cars are great values. In my opinion they have that niche of the market under control. But honestly they will not make a large dent in the market who is looking for a high performing car. In the TLs case (i know this is the RL forum, but i relate best to the TL since my dad has the 05 and my mom has the 2000), The current TL-S simply cannot keep up with a BMW 335, Lexus IS350, and G35/37. It does not hurt a company to offer several levels of a car, especially in the lines of performance.

And yes in the end, we are at the mercy with how and when they decide to bring out new products.

CL6

Wonder what will become of the Legend/RL now that Acura moves to Japan?

http://www.3autos.com/20051215/Honda...-network,5121/

Power1Pete

http://www.engadget.com/2006/01/30/h...kes-the-reins/

larrynimmo

way to be on the cutting edge...two year old article (a lot changes over 2 years!)

lumpulus

Glad to see you're here, and excellent write up!

SpicyMikey

I know at least Infiniti already offers this in the U.S. But, I haven't personally seen one (or know anyone) who has it. Maybe they haven't equiped any cars with it that were bound for the U.S.

I think the U.S. is last to get these gadgets until they are perfected because of the strong consumer laws in this country. That's a double edged sword, but, I'd rather wait until someone else tests it out before I buy it

Mike_TX

Well, THAT'S a relief. I know what you're talking about now - it's a lane maintenance system.

The trouble with these things - just as with the lane departure warning systems in use in some cars - is that lane markings aren't consistent. Get in an area where road work is being done, or has been done, and you'll find lane markings going all over the place. Go through many intersections in cities and you'll find arcing lane stripes to guide turning cars. Just turn left and you'll often cross lane markers. How about areas where the lane markings just aren't there, or have been worn off by traffic?

These and many other lane marking situations drive these systems crazy. That's why most of the folks on Infiniti forums, for example, report turning off the lane departure warning system after about a week.

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psteng19

Speaking of dealerships and service, the local Honda dealership has a much nicer/larger showroom and service than the Acura one, and they are owned by the same company!
Open Road Honda/Acura in East Brunswick, NJ.

Open Road Honda gives out free snacks/chips, bottled water, coffee, 6 ~20" LCD's and a nice/large waiting area.

Open Road Acura lacks the chips and the waiting area is tiny compared to Honda. The only plus is that they have one ~40 LCD TV.

psteng19

There has to be a typo for the RSX - median price $34745???
Wonder if they skewed the average sales number for Acura as a whole.

CL6

I have dial-up, downloading takes a while.

TampaRLX-SH

Mike_TX

See? If he still worked for Acura, he could stroll over to the free internet terminals in the dealership waiting area and enjoy high-speed DSL downloads while he munched on a freshly-baked cookie and sipped designer coffee.

He might have to elbow a customer out of the way but that's no big loss.

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CL6

Yea and at the same time they could check their email letting me know how many below invoice offers they just got from another dealer, go on to Craig's List to let me know how many other cars like their trade-in were listed for more than we were giving them, and then maybe look on KBB to say how I was giving them 'Fair' value when, really, old Betsy is worth 'Excellent' condition.

Love those DSL terminals and WiFi.

dwboston

Yeah - damn those buyers with their access to information. We should go back to the old days when consumers had no idea about invoice prices and trade-in values, and everyone paid sticker price. Those days were fun. It sucks when the pendulum swings the other way doesn't it?

TampaRLX-SH

This has been the best Monday.....EVER!

Mike_TX

Well, knowledge is power, and those people are called "informed buyers".

Sure, it was easier to make big profits and commissions before buyers became informed, but competition is the American way, and buyers have the right to know if they're getting the big one up the backside.

Only in the automobile business is it considered totally fair play to have four or five different prices and stick it to the poor sucker just because he doesn't know all the tricks.

Thank goodness we don't have to buy all our goods that way!

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Mike_TX

I've said this before and I'll say it again: Cars need to be sold like every other major purchase ... put a price on the window and sell it for that. Cut out all the "Old Mexico" haggling and horse-trading and conniving and out-foxing.

If cars had a set price tag, dealers would be able to operate on 1/3 the sales staff, since salespeople would just sell the products' virtues and write up orders. Therefore, dealers would have less overhead and wouldn't need the profit margin they require today. Of course, the list price joke would be out the window, since cars sell for far less than that on average. Price them at enough over invoice to provide a decent profit and run with it.

Dealers would have to compete on SERVICE and SALES COMPETENCE. (What a concept!) Dealers (and sales personnel) who excel could be rewarded by the factory with spifs and bonuses, so really good dealers could make more money than slipshod ones. IOW, they'd have to compete for our business like everyone else!

Buyers would buy more freely, and sales would increase, since prices would be lower and the barrier of uncertainty would be removed. Witness the upturn in sales when GM and Ford had the "Employee Pricing" promotions awhile back. The single biggest barrier to car purchase for most people is fear of getting screwed.

Unfortunately, greed will keep this from happening.

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CL6

Greed had nothing to do with it. What it has to do with is automakers not wanting to have put a real price out there that has to stick.

The more information the consumer has access to the more it sours their car buying experience, IMO.

Mike_TX

According to a good friend who is also a retired Daimler-Chrysler executive, the dealers squeal like stuck pigs whenever the subject of fixed pricing comes up. They COUNT on getting a sucker on a regular basis so they can make a killing.

I really disagree - it has made me a more confident and satisfied buyer, since I don't go away obsessing about how much I left on the table, or how badly I got taken. As such, it has forced dealers to be more forthright about pricing.

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CL6

A fixed price should not have anything to do with the rate, term, other services, etc. but just paying the window price. Dealerships could still have sales like Nordstroms. By 'sucker' I don't know what you mean... he who pays MSRP or over MSRP? I don't view paying MSRP as being a 'sucker' necessarily.

I'm glad it empowers you but I've seen plenty of people who got killer deals and still think they got jacked. To the mooch, no deal is good enough.

Mike_TX

Well, in a market where most dealers are happily accepting less than MSRP, I kinda consider anyone paying MSRP to be either completely uninformed, lazy, or a sucker (let's say someone smooth-talked into an unfavorable deal).

I completely agree dealers could voluntarily reduce prices (have a sale) under a fixed-price system to attract more business.

I'm all for giving dealers - and salespeople - enough profit to thrive, since otherwise they might not be there next time I drive by. Whatever that number is - $500 over current invoice or whatever - that should become the fixed price. After all, you don't go to Sears and buy a washing machine by dickering with the salesman for a lower price, or haggle with cashiers at the grocery store over the price of lettuce. They have a profit margin built in and you take it or leave it.

So why do we have to sharpen our negotiating skills and steel ourselves for a day-long battle to buy a car? I say make it clean and make it fun and you'll sell more of them and have happier customers.

As for the guys who got good deals and still weren't happy - I'd bet they still weren't sure they got as good a deal as they got, because of the witchcraft of car pricing.

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CL6

The people that are not happy go off about holdback and believe everything they read on Edmunds, blah blah blah. To those people I say I will burn your survey and have a nice day!

I heard the haggling thing happened after WWII with too many customers and not enough cars to sell.