what acura should be doing
10-09-2007, 12:47 AM
#41
My only car is a Bus
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That's why I was forced to leave Acura after so long. Believe me I didn't want to but, as you say, you can't make a good living there. Every deal is a few hundred above invoice. Those prices come after one phone call and no negotiation. Acura pushed too much supply out to make their 200,000 number and as the product slowed they kept shoving cars out. Dealers had to whore out the cars just to move them. Then Acura offered cash back to dealers which was passed to consumers so you had TLs selling for $1,500 below invoice. This killed the profit and the value of the pre-owned cars.
2004 and 2005 were exciting times to work for Acura but everybody else kept moving and finally all the neat Acura stuff like Navis and Bluetooth and whatnot were available in Altimas and with prices dropping not much was left that made an Acura worth extra I guess.
Acura should have had an RSX replacement and an NSX replacement. They should have been more aggressive with the RL after it bombed and the TL should have been redesigned for 2007 as an 08 but that ran into Honda's Accord launch, etc. The CL should have been redesigned too.
My point with Mercedes is the depth of product is available so you never have an entire line-up that's stale as with Acura.
Mercedes is very aggressive with dealers that whore out cars at least in their advertising and quotes. They are very serious about leasing. If you leased a Mercedes now and wanted to lease a new E Class MB will make 6 of your payments. You gotta pay to play. RLs always leased horribly. We've been over this before here for a few years now but Acura is just screwed up and worrying about stuff that doesn't really matter.
Until they have AWD or RWD cars, a broad line-up including coupes, a Halo car, etc... they ain't going nowhere. Honda has a better line-up that Acura does. I have to say it was very frustrating working there and seeing them go down the crapper. It was like a train wreck that took 2 years to happen. Now all the chickens have come home to roost.
The TSX is new next Spring but it will get whored out because the TL and RL are so soft and the MDX and RDX sell at about invoice. If after 6 months of the new TL being out things are still the same I'll be ready to write Acura off for the near future.
Mercedes has plenty of cars that go for invoice or even below sometimes but there's enough product out there for a salesperson to make a good living. Acura pretty much threw all that away and their best and brightest at the same time. I don't blame the consumer I blame Colliver and the other people there who let the present conditions arise.
2004 and 2005 were exciting times to work for Acura but everybody else kept moving and finally all the neat Acura stuff like Navis and Bluetooth and whatnot were available in Altimas and with prices dropping not much was left that made an Acura worth extra I guess.
Acura should have had an RSX replacement and an NSX replacement. They should have been more aggressive with the RL after it bombed and the TL should have been redesigned for 2007 as an 08 but that ran into Honda's Accord launch, etc. The CL should have been redesigned too.
My point with Mercedes is the depth of product is available so you never have an entire line-up that's stale as with Acura.
Mercedes is very aggressive with dealers that whore out cars at least in their advertising and quotes. They are very serious about leasing. If you leased a Mercedes now and wanted to lease a new E Class MB will make 6 of your payments. You gotta pay to play. RLs always leased horribly. We've been over this before here for a few years now but Acura is just screwed up and worrying about stuff that doesn't really matter.
Until they have AWD or RWD cars, a broad line-up including coupes, a Halo car, etc... they ain't going nowhere. Honda has a better line-up that Acura does. I have to say it was very frustrating working there and seeing them go down the crapper. It was like a train wreck that took 2 years to happen. Now all the chickens have come home to roost.
The TSX is new next Spring but it will get whored out because the TL and RL are so soft and the MDX and RDX sell at about invoice. If after 6 months of the new TL being out things are still the same I'll be ready to write Acura off for the near future.
Mercedes has plenty of cars that go for invoice or even below sometimes but there's enough product out there for a salesperson to make a good living. Acura pretty much threw all that away and their best and brightest at the same time. I don't blame the consumer I blame Colliver and the other people there who let the present conditions arise.
10-09-2007, 06:33 AM
#42
Alpha Geek
Originally Posted by CL6
The TSX is new next Spring but it will get whored out because the TL and RL are so soft and the MDX and RDX sell at about invoice. If after 6 months of the new TL being out things are still the same I'll be ready to write Acura off for the near future.
10-09-2007, 07:45 AM
#43
Go Big Blue!
Originally Posted by lumpulus
Sorry, but anything you say just sounds like your trying to get me to buy whatever brand you're selling now. Maybe because you didn't believe in Acura is one of the reasons sales dropped.
I've stood in the backyard of my brothers dealership many times having "cigarette breaks" with the managers and salesmen. They are all whinning and sound pretty much like CL. I assure you they weren't trying to sell me a Mercedes! They can't all be wrong. The captain of this ship is simply ignoring the signs and just keeps calling for full steam ahead. It's like the Titanic. The odds were in their favor that night. But there were definitely scenerios where they could have sunk that ship. Unfortunately, one of them came true. It's not impossible for Acura to kill this brand if they make enough bad decisions. Having some emotional investment in the company through my personal associations, that bothers me.
Now, putting my consumer hat back on, I say; Who cares? I don't own Honda stock and their bad fortune continues to allow me to buy great cars at bargain basement prices. Keep screwing up Acura.. I want to get a new redesigned TSX next spring for my daughter at Invoice
10-09-2007, 08:11 AM
#44
Torch & Pitchfork Posse
A few years ago, my perspective of purchasing an Acura was you pretty much paid sticker. If it was a deal, you got $500 off.
In Jan 2005 when I bought my TL, it was selling well, and that was the kinda deal I got, so I was satisfied. I never even looked at the RL as my expectations for a deal were the same and the RL was a $50K car.
Only when I read here the RLs were selling sub $42K did I consider it, and buy it.
Now, like most consumers, I expect great deals on Acuras. I will wait after a model introduction as I now see it is not long to save thousands in waiting a few months.
As Mikey & CL6 depict, that is awful expectations to set for the sales people to deal with, but the consumers are eager to capture. And even though I took opportunity of a huge discount on my RL (and would do it again) I also think it cheapens the product perception as a whole. It is a tough division of a business model to stradle. Someone is always going to be on the wrong side of the fence.
In Jan 2005 when I bought my TL, it was selling well, and that was the kinda deal I got, so I was satisfied. I never even looked at the RL as my expectations for a deal were the same and the RL was a $50K car.
Only when I read here the RLs were selling sub $42K did I consider it, and buy it.
Now, like most consumers, I expect great deals on Acuras. I will wait after a model introduction as I now see it is not long to save thousands in waiting a few months.
As Mikey & CL6 depict, that is awful expectations to set for the sales people to deal with, but the consumers are eager to capture. And even though I took opportunity of a huge discount on my RL (and would do it again) I also think it cheapens the product perception as a whole. It is a tough division of a business model to stradle. Someone is always going to be on the wrong side of the fence.
10-09-2007, 11:45 AM
#45
Alpha Geek
Spicy.....no need to apologize....I can't be right all the time.. 
My grandfather, when he was alive, bought nothing but Mercurys....didn't matter how bad they were, that's what he bought. To this day, I will never understand that. I am not, nor will I ever be, brand loyal to any product.(except Guinness
)
I think that up till recently that's what American car makers counted on...that the construction guy bought a Ford or Chevy P/U, if you were rich(or a pimp) you bought a Caddy.
People are finally starting to get smarter in their consumer choices( a good thing) and the big 3 are scrambling to catch up.
My grandfather, when he was alive, bought nothing but Mercurys....didn't matter how bad they were, that's what he bought. To this day, I will never understand that. I am not, nor will I ever be, brand loyal to any product.(except Guinness
)I think that up till recently that's what American car makers counted on...that the construction guy bought a Ford or Chevy P/U, if you were rich(or a pimp) you bought a Caddy.
People are finally starting to get smarter in their consumer choices( a good thing) and the big 3 are scrambling to catch up.
10-09-2007, 01:11 PM
#46
Senior Moderator
Funny that we share experiences. The RL is my third Acura. I bought a 2G TL at a few hundred under sticker, and I bought the 3G TL a few days BEFORE the official release of the model--I loved that TL so much I (and I will NEVER do this again! No matter how much I love a car....) put down a $1000 deposit and drove off after paying full sticker. BTW, the TL, despite what people say about it here, was a phenomenal car. The RL is just better.....
When the 2G RL came along, I admired the new tech but was a year into my 3G TL, so didn't even look further. Only when I heard about the phenomenal deals one could get on an RL did I seriously look at buying. Otherwise, I'd be on the wagon waiting for the 4G TL and I'd have 72k miles on my TL by now.
So I'm not unfamiliar with paying more for my Acuras, and would not be averse to doing so again, just not full sticker.
When the 2G RL came along, I admired the new tech but was a year into my 3G TL, so didn't even look further. Only when I heard about the phenomenal deals one could get on an RL did I seriously look at buying. Otherwise, I'd be on the wagon waiting for the 4G TL and I'd have 72k miles on my TL by now.
So I'm not unfamiliar with paying more for my Acuras, and would not be averse to doing so again, just not full sticker.
Originally Posted by TampaRL
A few years ago, my perspective of purchasing an Acura was you pretty much paid sticker. If it was a deal, you got $500 off.
In Jan 2005 when I bought my TL, it was selling well, and that was the kinda deal I got, so I was satisfied. I never even looked at the RL as my expectations for a deal were the same and the RL was a $50K car.
Only when I read here the RLs were selling sub $42K did I consider it, and buy it.
Now, like most consumers, I expect great deals on Acuras. I will wait after a model introduction as I now see it is not long to save thousands in waiting a few months.
As Mikey & CL6 depict, that is awful expectations to set for the sales people to deal with, but the consumers are eager to capture. And even though I took opportunity of a huge discount on my RL (and would do it again) I also think it cheapens the product perception as a whole. It is a tough division of a business model to stradle. Someone is always going to be on the wrong side of the fence.
In Jan 2005 when I bought my TL, it was selling well, and that was the kinda deal I got, so I was satisfied. I never even looked at the RL as my expectations for a deal were the same and the RL was a $50K car.
Only when I read here the RLs were selling sub $42K did I consider it, and buy it.
Now, like most consumers, I expect great deals on Acuras. I will wait after a model introduction as I now see it is not long to save thousands in waiting a few months.
As Mikey & CL6 depict, that is awful expectations to set for the sales people to deal with, but the consumers are eager to capture. And even though I took opportunity of a huge discount on my RL (and would do it again) I also think it cheapens the product perception as a whole. It is a tough division of a business model to stradle. Someone is always going to be on the wrong side of the fence.
10-09-2007, 01:43 PM
#47
AcurAdmirer
I guess I just don't get it.
People are trying to get Acura to be Lexus, and Mercedes, and Bentley, and God-knows-what, but I think Acura doesn't want to be anyone but Acura. True, they haven't always been wildly successful being Acura, but others have had that problem, too (*cough, cough* Chrysler, Ford, GM, Nissan, etc.), and I believe they're working to improve that.
Think about it ... Lexus, Infiniti and Acura make up an Asian "bridge" market between the "real" luxury players (M-B, BMW, Audi, etal) and the everyday drivers like Chevy, Ford, Chrysler, VW, etc. These three give buyers the opportunity to get more style, power and luxury without having to get a second mortgage on the house or sell the firstborn. Kinda like a "near-Mercedes" experience, if you will.
Honda has positioned Acura below both Lexus and Infiniti (just as Nissan has positioned Infiniti below Lexus), primarily to differentiate itself, because there's limited room in the market for three Lexuses. So, they figure, we'll offer a slightly more value-oriented alternative and draw customers away from the other guys on price and content. And that's exactly where I think they want to be.
Now, with the RL, they tried a bold move and it hasn't worked out well because they were playing outside their comfort zone and outside the market position they've established for themselves. So, is the answer to try to change their market position and compete with M-B, BMW, etal, or is it to quietly return to the niche they originally made for themselves? I personally don't think they are interested in dramatically changing their market position, because that would entail enormous expenditures on dealerships, advertising, training, staffing, and so on, not to mention product.
So, they ain't gonna try to be Mercedes. They are going to continue trying to compete in the market just below that with technology, style and value that outshines Infiniti and Lexus. Getting their message out is the issue, as we've discussed here ad nauseum.
In the meantime, the Asian near-lux market clearly stacks up as Lexus, then Infiniti, then Acura. Don't hold your breath waiting for Acura to trump Mercedes - they still have Infiniti and Lexus to deal with and M-B isn't even in their sights. And as we Acura owners know, that's okay - we benefit from being the underdog.
.
.
People are trying to get Acura to be Lexus, and Mercedes, and Bentley, and God-knows-what, but I think Acura doesn't want to be anyone but Acura. True, they haven't always been wildly successful being Acura, but others have had that problem, too (*cough, cough* Chrysler, Ford, GM, Nissan, etc.), and I believe they're working to improve that.
Think about it ... Lexus, Infiniti and Acura make up an Asian "bridge" market between the "real" luxury players (M-B, BMW, Audi, etal) and the everyday drivers like Chevy, Ford, Chrysler, VW, etc. These three give buyers the opportunity to get more style, power and luxury without having to get a second mortgage on the house or sell the firstborn. Kinda like a "near-Mercedes" experience, if you will.
Honda has positioned Acura below both Lexus and Infiniti (just as Nissan has positioned Infiniti below Lexus), primarily to differentiate itself, because there's limited room in the market for three Lexuses. So, they figure, we'll offer a slightly more value-oriented alternative and draw customers away from the other guys on price and content. And that's exactly where I think they want to be.
Now, with the RL, they tried a bold move and it hasn't worked out well because they were playing outside their comfort zone and outside the market position they've established for themselves. So, is the answer to try to change their market position and compete with M-B, BMW, etal, or is it to quietly return to the niche they originally made for themselves? I personally don't think they are interested in dramatically changing their market position, because that would entail enormous expenditures on dealerships, advertising, training, staffing, and so on, not to mention product.
So, they ain't gonna try to be Mercedes. They are going to continue trying to compete in the market just below that with technology, style and value that outshines Infiniti and Lexus. Getting their message out is the issue, as we've discussed here ad nauseum.
In the meantime, the Asian near-lux market clearly stacks up as Lexus, then Infiniti, then Acura. Don't hold your breath waiting for Acura to trump Mercedes - they still have Infiniti and Lexus to deal with and M-B isn't even in their sights. And as we Acura owners know, that's okay - we benefit from being the underdog.
.
.
10-09-2007, 01:56 PM
#48
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I sold Acuras for over four years and was one of the top people at my dealership. How long have you sold Acuras and how many units per month do you move?
Originally Posted by lumpulus
Sorry, but anything you say just sounds like your trying to get me to buy whatever brand you're selling now. Maybe because you didn't believe in Acura is one of the reasons sales dropped.
10-09-2007, 03:31 PM
#49
Go Big Blue!
Originally Posted by Mike_TX
I guess I just don't get it.
People are trying to get Acura to be Lexus, and Mercedes, and Bentley, and God-knows-what, but I think Acura doesn't want to be anyone but Acura. True, they haven't always been wildly successful being Acura, but others have had that problem, too (*cough, cough* Chrysler, Ford, GM, Nissan, etc.), and I believe they're working to improve that.
Think about it ... Lexus, Infiniti and Acura make up an Asian "bridge" market between the "real" luxury players (M-B, BMW, Audi, etal) and the everyday drivers like Chevy, Ford, Chrysler, VW, etc. These three give buyers the opportunity to get more style, power and luxury without having to get a second mortgage on the house or sell the firstborn. Kinda like a "near-Mercedes" experience, if you will.
Honda has positioned Acura below both Lexus and Infiniti (just as Nissan has positioned Infiniti below Lexus), primarily to differentiate itself, because there's limited room in the market for three Lexuses. So, they figure, we'll offer a slightly more value-oriented alternative and draw customers away from the other guys on price and content. And that's exactly where I think they want to be.
Now, with the RL, they tried a bold move and it hasn't worked out well because they were playing outside their comfort zone and outside the market position they've established for themselves. So, is the answer to try to change their market position and compete with M-B, BMW, etal, or is it to quietly return to the niche they originally made for themselves? I personally don't think they are interested in dramatically changing their market position, because that would entail enormous expenditures on dealerships, advertising, training, staffing, and so on, not to mention product.
So, they ain't gonna try to be Mercedes. They are going to continue trying to compete in the market just below that with technology, style and value that outshines Infiniti and Lexus. Getting their message out is the issue, as we've discussed here ad nauseum.
In the meantime, the Asian near-lux market clearly stacks up as Lexus, then Infiniti, then Acura. Don't hold your breath waiting for Acura to trump Mercedes - they still have Infiniti and Lexus to deal with and M-B isn't even in their sights. And as we Acura owners know, that's okay - we benefit from being the underdog.
.
.
People are trying to get Acura to be Lexus, and Mercedes, and Bentley, and God-knows-what, but I think Acura doesn't want to be anyone but Acura. True, they haven't always been wildly successful being Acura, but others have had that problem, too (*cough, cough* Chrysler, Ford, GM, Nissan, etc.), and I believe they're working to improve that.
Think about it ... Lexus, Infiniti and Acura make up an Asian "bridge" market between the "real" luxury players (M-B, BMW, Audi, etal) and the everyday drivers like Chevy, Ford, Chrysler, VW, etc. These three give buyers the opportunity to get more style, power and luxury without having to get a second mortgage on the house or sell the firstborn. Kinda like a "near-Mercedes" experience, if you will.
Honda has positioned Acura below both Lexus and Infiniti (just as Nissan has positioned Infiniti below Lexus), primarily to differentiate itself, because there's limited room in the market for three Lexuses. So, they figure, we'll offer a slightly more value-oriented alternative and draw customers away from the other guys on price and content. And that's exactly where I think they want to be.
Now, with the RL, they tried a bold move and it hasn't worked out well because they were playing outside their comfort zone and outside the market position they've established for themselves. So, is the answer to try to change their market position and compete with M-B, BMW, etal, or is it to quietly return to the niche they originally made for themselves? I personally don't think they are interested in dramatically changing their market position, because that would entail enormous expenditures on dealerships, advertising, training, staffing, and so on, not to mention product.
So, they ain't gonna try to be Mercedes. They are going to continue trying to compete in the market just below that with technology, style and value that outshines Infiniti and Lexus. Getting their message out is the issue, as we've discussed here ad nauseum.
In the meantime, the Asian near-lux market clearly stacks up as Lexus, then Infiniti, then Acura. Don't hold your breath waiting for Acura to trump Mercedes - they still have Infiniti and Lexus to deal with and M-B isn't even in their sights. And as we Acura owners know, that's okay - we benefit from being the underdog.
.
.
If this is the spot they like being in, well, too bad. They need to consider moving to another spot or fold up the tent, because this ain't working anymore. It might not require a large change. Maybe they just need to move a tad further upstream.
Ironically, I think Honda is part of the problem. They have such a huge and successful product line. It just seems Acura is too close to their shadows in styling and product platforms. Their products are always being compared to Honda and they can't win that battle from this close proximity. Take the TSX. Why would ANYONE buy an 07 TSX with the new Accord available now? It has more size, more features, and fully loaded, is about $1500 cheaper. AND, they're both Honda's. I know it's getting redesigned next spring but dealers can pretty much scratch that car off the list now for the next 6 months because of Acura's close association with Honda. People aren't stupid. They see the connection.
Personally, I think they SHOULD follow Lexus' lead. That means more unique platforms, more AWD or RWD, a 200+inch flagship sedan, a convertible, a coupe, etc. In other words, a full product line. A separate train going in it's own direction rather then a niche caboose hanging off the end of the Honda train.
10-09-2007, 05:43 PM
#50
AcurAdmirer
Originally Posted by SpicyMikey
Hey, Acura's right in my sweet spot Mike. I personally don't have a problem with them staying right where they are. Just speculating what they need to do to be more successful from a business perspective, which they have lots of room to improve on given their horrible sales and terrible dealer profits this year. Dealers can't stay in business selling cars at invoice all the time. Acura can't stay in business without dealers. Something's gotta change, right?
If this is the spot they like being in, well, too bad. They need to consider moving to another spot or fold up the tent, because this ain't working anymore. It might not require a large change. Maybe they just need to move a tad further upstream.
Ironically, I think Honda is part of the problem. They have such a huge and successful product line. It just seems Acura is too close to their shadows in styling and product platforms. Their products are always being compared to Honda and they can't win that battle from this close proximity. Take the TSX. Why would ANYONE buy an 07 TSX with the new Accord available now? It has more size, more features, and fully loaded, is about $1500 cheaper. AND, they're both Honda's. I know it's getting redesigned next spring but dealers can pretty much scratch that car off the list now for the next 6 months because of Acura's close association with Honda. People aren't stupid. They see the connection.
Personally, I think they SHOULD follow Lexus' lead. That means more unique platforms, more AWD or RWD, a 200+inch flagship sedan, a convertible, a coupe, etc. In other words, a full product line. A separate train going in it's own direction rather then a niche caboose hanging off the end of the Honda train.
If this is the spot they like being in, well, too bad. They need to consider moving to another spot or fold up the tent, because this ain't working anymore. It might not require a large change. Maybe they just need to move a tad further upstream.
Ironically, I think Honda is part of the problem. They have such a huge and successful product line. It just seems Acura is too close to their shadows in styling and product platforms. Their products are always being compared to Honda and they can't win that battle from this close proximity. Take the TSX. Why would ANYONE buy an 07 TSX with the new Accord available now? It has more size, more features, and fully loaded, is about $1500 cheaper. AND, they're both Honda's. I know it's getting redesigned next spring but dealers can pretty much scratch that car off the list now for the next 6 months because of Acura's close association with Honda. People aren't stupid. They see the connection.
Personally, I think they SHOULD follow Lexus' lead. That means more unique platforms, more AWD or RWD, a 200+inch flagship sedan, a convertible, a coupe, etc. In other words, a full product line. A separate train going in it's own direction rather then a niche caboose hanging off the end of the Honda train.
Some of the American design studio work like the TL and the MDX have given it some real hope, I think, but it just doesn't look to me like Honda plans to take Acura upmarket. And certainly not to the M-B or even Lexus levels.
As for selling at invoice, that's not entirely bad. After all, only the people "in the know" will demand invoice pricing, so there's still going to be a sizeable profit from the other buyers. And if invoice is set high enough, there's adequate profit for the mfr, too. Given enough holdbacks, incentives and bonuses, the dealers make out fine, too, so it's a win-win-win. Not in the "window sticker or nothing" kind of atmosphere you see at exotic car dealers, but if it works, it works.
I guess my whole point was that I truly don't think Honda/Acura sits around worrying about competing head-to-head with the top-tier guys like M-B and BMW. WE sit around wishing they would, but I really doubt THEY do. They're apparently content to play the part of the field they've staked out, and they just want to be the best in that area.
IOW - We tend to think in terms of our guy whipping the other guy, but they're just concentrating on whipping themselves. Think of it as Japanese culture vs. American culture.
.
.
10-09-2007, 06:09 PM
#51
My only car is a Bus
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If that were true my friends at Acura wouldn't be starving month after month. From your computer screen it might read well, but in practice, it just ain't so.
No offense to you, honestly.
No offense to you, honestly.
Originally Posted by Mike_TX
As for selling at invoice, that's not entirely bad. After all, only the people "in the know" will demand invoice pricing, so there's still going to be a sizeable profit from the other buyers. And if invoice is set high enough, there's adequate profit for the mfr, too. Given enough holdbacks, incentives and bonuses, the dealers make out fine, too, so it's a win-win-win. Not in the "window sticker or nothing" kind of atmosphere you see at exotic car dealers, but if it works, it works.
10-09-2007, 11:56 PM
#52
Three Wheelin'
I don't think HMC in Japan cares that much about Acura or the luxury car market. As others have stated, HMC is Honda MOTOR Company, not Honda CAR Company. Cars are just part of what they are about, and not even the largest part. The luxury car market isn't growing globally and I don't see that changing anytime soon. However, the demand for fuel-efficient and alternative-fuel engines is growing, so that is where Honda is putting their efforts. We will see fuel-cell and flex-fuel engines coming from Honda in the future that will be truly impressive. However, that won't help Acura's image, and I don't think the parent company cares.
10-10-2007, 12:13 AM
#53
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If Acura had diesels and maybe even a hybrid I think people would take notice. Diesels are coming to Honda in the Ridgeline so there is hope.
I remember the excitement when we thought the RL would be a hybrid. Had that happened it would have been awesome. Would it have sold? I don't know.
I remember the excitement when we thought the RL would be a hybrid. Had that happened it would have been awesome. Would it have sold? I don't know.
Originally Posted by jhr3uva90
I don't think HMC in Japan cares that much about Acura or the luxury car market. As others have stated, HMC is Honda MOTOR Company, not Honda CAR Company. Cars are just part of what they are about, and not even the largest part. The luxury car market isn't growing globally and I don't see that changing anytime soon. However, the demand for fuel-efficient and alternative-fuel engines is growing, so that is where Honda is putting their efforts. We will see fuel-cell and flex-fuel engines coming from Honda in the future that will be truly impressive. However, that won't help Acura's image, and I don't think the parent company cares.
10-10-2007, 07:09 AM
#54
Alpha Geek
Originally Posted by CL6
I sold Acuras for over four years and was one of the top people at my dealership. How long have you sold Acuras and how many units per month do you move?
The Acura dealers near me are doing just fine, if their overflow lot near where I work is any indication.....I also see the same salesdroids year after year there(that's rare) and most are pretty chubby so I don't think they're starving.
Buying a car is like playing chess with the sales manager....you're just a pawn.
10-10-2007, 07:29 AM
#55
Go Big Blue!
Originally Posted by jhr3uva90
I don't think HMC in Japan cares that much about Acura or the luxury car market. As others have stated, HMC is Honda MOTOR Company, not Honda CAR Company. Cars are just part of what they are about, and not even the largest part. The luxury car market isn't growing globally and I don't see that changing anytime soon. However, the demand for fuel-efficient and alternative-fuel engines is growing, so that is where Honda is putting their efforts. We will see fuel-cell and flex-fuel engines coming from Honda in the future that will be truly impressive. However, that won't help Acura's image, and I don't think the parent company cares.
Stating the obvious is easy to do, but not really much fun. Honda doesn't care about their Acura division as much as Toyota cares about Lexus. That's obvious. Honda makes more then just cars. We've said that already. We are all aware of that also. Gas prices are going up faster then inflation these days and fuel efficient cars are in higher demand these days and makes Honda Division well positioned. Yep, that fact hasn't escaped anyone here either. But we're talking about the Acura division NOT the Honda division. We're certainly not talking about Honda Motor Company as a whole.
10-10-2007, 07:37 AM
#56
Maybe a V10 IS what they need in the RL. There is a different marketing philosophy to competing than beating. To compete their are many ducks you have to get in a row. To beat there is only one. It needs to be faster, more powerful and have all the toys that Honda is famous for making standard.
If diesel is a criteria then you are missing the high end mandate. Of the few who will buy the RL only a small % want a diesel. Most prospective buyers can afford the extra $10/wk for gas, don't want the hastle of the diesel and will get their kids to worry about the planet. If you think that a few Prius cars is going to make a difference then check out the stats of a major Chinese city.
The RL's success is in North America and a flagship has to be better than the competition. EU would embrace the diesel but the 150 cars sold would not justify the marketing costs.
If diesel is a criteria then you are missing the high end mandate. Of the few who will buy the RL only a small % want a diesel. Most prospective buyers can afford the extra $10/wk for gas, don't want the hastle of the diesel and will get their kids to worry about the planet. If you think that a few Prius cars is going to make a difference then check out the stats of a major Chinese city.
The RL's success is in North America and a flagship has to be better than the competition. EU would embrace the diesel but the 150 cars sold would not justify the marketing costs.
10-10-2007, 08:39 AM
#57
Alpha Geek
It DOES worry me that Honda\Acura will close the Acura division, but it doesn't worry me as much as some of you.....I have a Honda push mower that I bought in 2000 when I moved into my new home....I don't think I'll ever have to replace it. If the RL had a 4 CYL in it I would buy it if it was reliable and made good HP.
If I wanted gas mileage I would but a fit.
It seems to me, as I said earlier, few car makers are doing really well at the moment...not just Acura.
If I wanted gas mileage I would but a fit.
It seems to me, as I said earlier, few car makers are doing really well at the moment...not just Acura.
10-10-2007, 08:47 AM
#58
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Honda has SUPER diesels in Europe, they will be coming here next year.
The test Accord with the new super diesel gets 62mpg.
If you want to read about them, go to hondauk.com
Honda is a green company and will enter into most decisions, they always keep that in mind.
Do you really want a v-8 in the RL that gets 16 mpg overall if you put your foot into at times?
The RL would not sell many more cars if it had a v-8, at least not enough to make a difference that would change their life at Honda.
The test Accord with the new super diesel gets 62mpg.
If you want to read about them, go to hondauk.com
Honda is a green company and will enter into most decisions, they always keep that in mind.
Do you really want a v-8 in the RL that gets 16 mpg overall if you put your foot into at times?
The RL would not sell many more cars if it had a v-8, at least not enough to make a difference that would change their life at Honda.
10-10-2007, 10:23 AM
#59
Go Big Blue!
Originally Posted by lumpulus
It DOES worry me that Honda\Acura will close the Acura division, but it doesn't worry me as much as some of you.....I have a Honda push mower that I bought in 2000 when I moved into my new home....I don't think I'll ever have to replace it. If the RL had a 4 CYL in it I would buy it if it was reliable and made good HP.
If I wanted gas mileage I would but a fit.
It seems to me, as I said earlier, few car makers are doing really well at the moment...not just Acura.
If I wanted gas mileage I would but a fit.
It seems to me, as I said earlier, few car makers are doing really well at the moment...not just Acura.
10-10-2007, 10:35 AM
#60
Go Big Blue!
Originally Posted by kirbyflorida
Honda is a green company and will enter into most decisions, they always keep that in mind..
Using that "caboose" analogy again. Acura is just not able to move in the direction they probably need to because they are hooked to the back of the Honda train. Honda just hasn't let them break away and go down their own track. Maybe screaming dealerships will force some action now.
10-10-2007, 03:28 PM
#61
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by SpicyMikey
Acura is just not able to move in the direction they probably need to because they are hooked to the back of the Honda train. Honda just hasn't let them break away and go down their own track. Maybe screaming dealerships will force some action now.
Lexus has found a way to distinguish themselves from Toyota. Infiniti has done so with Nissan. Even with the merger, no one thought of Mercedes-Benz as gussied up Chryslers, though some Chryslers had Mercedes guts (albeit older guts).
I believe you can drive sales in the mid-luxury market with service. One of the reasons I stuck with Acura when I sold my Legend was because I had been reasonably happy with my local Acura service. If I wasn't, I'd probably be driving something else. Sure, being a Honda underneath meant that service wasn't generally a big worry on my Legend(s). That said, I do get a little nervous about the high-tech RL should something go wrong.
Rob144
10-10-2007, 03:42 PM
#62
Safety Car
Originally Posted by lumpulus
...I have a Honda push mower that I bought in 2000 when I moved into my new home....I don't think I'll ever have to replace it..
10-10-2007, 04:45 PM
#63
Torch & Pitchfork Posse
Originally Posted by Rob144
This may sound a little bit on the harsh side, but if you can't distinguish your lineup with product then you had better distinguish it with service. If Acura can't untether themselves from Honda products (none of which are bad by any means), then the quickest way to do so is in the customer experience.
Lexus has found a way to distinguish themselves from Toyota. Infiniti has done so with Nissan. Even with the merger, no one thought of Mercedes-Benz as gussied up Chryslers, though some Chryslers had Mercedes guts (albeit older guts).
I believe you can drive sales in the mid-luxury market with service. One of the reasons I stuck with Acura when I sold my Legend was because I had been reasonably happy with my local Acura service. If I wasn't, I'd probably be driving something else. Sure, being a Honda underneath meant that service wasn't generally a big worry on my Legend(s). That said, I do get a little nervous about the high-tech RL should something go wrong. Rob144
Lexus has found a way to distinguish themselves from Toyota. Infiniti has done so with Nissan. Even with the merger, no one thought of Mercedes-Benz as gussied up Chryslers, though some Chryslers had Mercedes guts (albeit older guts).
I believe you can drive sales in the mid-luxury market with service. One of the reasons I stuck with Acura when I sold my Legend was because I had been reasonably happy with my local Acura service. If I wasn't, I'd probably be driving something else. Sure, being a Honda underneath meant that service wasn't generally a big worry on my Legend(s). That said, I do get a little nervous about the high-tech RL should something go wrong. Rob144
I agree wholeheartedly Rob. I do not necessarily desire the optimum vehicle in the market segment, I desire very much what the RL offers me. But KEY in my purchase of my 2 Acuras was the ownership and service experience. The sales experience to a lesser degree as once the sale is done, there is little ongoing contact with sales unless they smell your desire to purchase another product.
I admit my dealership is stellar, and nearly on par with the Lexus dealer my family uses. In fact all of the dealships under this ownership seem to be good (Honda, Audi, Caddy, etc). But I did initially visited another Acura dealeship in my area. The experience was shocking to my expectations of a premium brand. I walked. And I nearly walked on Acura brand as a result.
The dealership experience I currently have not only won me back to Acura, they sold me 2 Acuras. If I did not have this relationship, I would likely be looking at other brands. But when I lose my wits and decide to let loose of my RL, the current Acura dealer will weigh very heavily on my staying with Acura versus considering another brand.
10-10-2007, 05:43 PM
#64
AcurAdmirer
There's an interesting dynamic here - one side believes Acura needs a V-8 to be competitive and the other side thinks it's foolish overkill. The no-V-8 side speaks of diesels and hybrids and the V-8 side wants more horsepower and torque and even maybe a V-10.
So, what does this tell us? Simply that people in America aren't all on the same automotive page. And Honda/Acura is, in a sense, slotting us all into one column by offering only a V-6 in its top-line car. Don't look now, but that means the argument for an OPTIONAL V-8 just got a lot stronger.
This forum is a snapshot of American automobile enthusiasts and buyers, and if we are split on V-8, no-V-8, diesel, hybrid, flex-fuel, V-10, etc., then it would behoove Acura to offer us at least the two most obvious and "easy" choices - a V-6 and a V-8.
With all due respect to those in the diesel camp, there isn't an automaker out there - much less a fairly low-volume one like Acura - who sells diesel luxury sedans in America in sufficient numbers to justify having them in the lineup. Sure, that may change some day, but Acura can't take the risk of being the guinea pig. The Honda diesel is a 4-banger suitable for compact cars, and wouldn't sell more than a token number of copies if put in an RL-class car. Just look at the smashing success Mercedes has had with its diesel luxury cars in America.
I for one hope Honda is seriously considering an optional V-8 for its next-gen RL if it expects it to be a greater success than the current one.
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So, what does this tell us? Simply that people in America aren't all on the same automotive page. And Honda/Acura is, in a sense, slotting us all into one column by offering only a V-6 in its top-line car. Don't look now, but that means the argument for an OPTIONAL V-8 just got a lot stronger.
This forum is a snapshot of American automobile enthusiasts and buyers, and if we are split on V-8, no-V-8, diesel, hybrid, flex-fuel, V-10, etc., then it would behoove Acura to offer us at least the two most obvious and "easy" choices - a V-6 and a V-8.
With all due respect to those in the diesel camp, there isn't an automaker out there - much less a fairly low-volume one like Acura - who sells diesel luxury sedans in America in sufficient numbers to justify having them in the lineup. Sure, that may change some day, but Acura can't take the risk of being the guinea pig. The Honda diesel is a 4-banger suitable for compact cars, and wouldn't sell more than a token number of copies if put in an RL-class car. Just look at the smashing success Mercedes has had with its diesel luxury cars in America.
I for one hope Honda is seriously considering an optional V-8 for its next-gen RL if it expects it to be a greater success than the current one.
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10-10-2007, 06:30 PM
#65
Torch & Pitchfork Posse
Without trying to thaw the ice age of diesel mentality, Honda has done extremely well changing the perception of diesels in Europe. They cannot build them fast enough. They are CLEANER, MORE TORQUE, BETTER ECONOMY and SOUND AS GOOD AS V-TECH. Honda clearly has to take on the US diesel mentality. I have seen it abroad and I am convinced there is intelligence if not open mindedness somewhere in the US market.
But for those who refuse to get beyond the diesel is bad mentality, enjoy filling up your V8 and V10s at the pump. The V6 green diesels will require no urea packs, no consumer maintenance (we are not bright enough) AND they will be 50 state approved. Has Mercedes accomplished that? Oh, it's OK, they are true luxury, they know what is best for us. But what a shock if Honda introduced a V6 green diesel that superceeded the current diesel benchmark, and made it's diesel the new benchmark. As soon as the luxury marques copied it, it then would be OK? Gee..I kinda remember this with something called SHAWD. It ay not be widely accepted, but I am grateful to have it. And gee the big guys (who apparently know what is best for us) are now copying it.
The LEGEND V6 diesel is in the works (as is MDX, Ridgeline, Pilot and possibly the CR-V and the Element...yes V6). It is not a HUGE risk for Honda to offer it in the Acura RL. What could it do? Sell a few more RLs, and maybe catch on? The feel of the V8 so many whine for and economy, green impact BETTER than the current offer. How DARE Honda change our thinking of what luxury REALLY is? I mean I still wear REAL animal fur coats...'cause that is what someone said luxury was.
Nay Say will not stop intelligent, efficient, progressive engineering for which Honda is known. They last time I heard so much nay say on Honda's product attempts was in the 70s when the CVCC was laughed at. Any the perception of Honda now?
Thank God Honda did not surrender to American know it all mentality, otherwise we'd all still be waiting in line for fuel with our rusted out 1970s 8mpg small penis compensators. Now that is the luxury experience I live for.
But for those who refuse to get beyond the diesel is bad mentality, enjoy filling up your V8 and V10s at the pump. The V6 green diesels will require no urea packs, no consumer maintenance (we are not bright enough) AND they will be 50 state approved. Has Mercedes accomplished that? Oh, it's OK, they are true luxury, they know what is best for us. But what a shock if Honda introduced a V6 green diesel that superceeded the current diesel benchmark, and made it's diesel the new benchmark. As soon as the luxury marques copied it, it then would be OK? Gee..I kinda remember this with something called SHAWD. It ay not be widely accepted, but I am grateful to have it. And gee the big guys (who apparently know what is best for us) are now copying it.
The LEGEND V6 diesel is in the works (as is MDX, Ridgeline, Pilot and possibly the CR-V and the Element...yes V6). It is not a HUGE risk for Honda to offer it in the Acura RL. What could it do? Sell a few more RLs, and maybe catch on? The feel of the V8 so many whine for and economy, green impact BETTER than the current offer. How DARE Honda change our thinking of what luxury REALLY is? I mean I still wear REAL animal fur coats...'cause that is what someone said luxury was.
Nay Say will not stop intelligent, efficient, progressive engineering for which Honda is known. They last time I heard so much nay say on Honda's product attempts was in the 70s when the CVCC was laughed at. Any the perception of Honda now?
Thank God Honda did not surrender to American know it all mentality, otherwise we'd all still be waiting in line for fuel with our rusted out 1970s 8mpg small penis compensators. Now that is the luxury experience I live for.
10-10-2007, 08:32 PM
#66
AcurAdmirer
Originally Posted by TampaRL
Without trying to thaw the ice age of diesel mentality, Honda has done extremely well changing the perception of diesels in Europe. They cannot build them fast enough. They are CLEANER, MORE TORQUE, BETTER ECONOMY and SOUND AS GOOD AS V-TECH. Honda clearly has to take on the US diesel mentality. I have seen it abroad and I am convinced there is intelligence if not open mindedness somewhere in the US market.
But for those who refuse to get beyond the diesel is bad mentality, enjoy filling up your V8 and V10s at the pump. The V6 green diesels will require no urea packs, no consumer maintenance (we are not bright enough) AND they will be 50 state approved. Has Mercedes accomplished that? Oh, it's OK, they are true luxury, they know what is best for us. But what a shock if Honda introduced a V6 green diesel that superceeded the current diesel benchmark, and made it's diesel the new benchmark. As soon as the luxury marques copied it, it then would be OK? Gee..I kinda remember this with something called SHAWD. It ay not be widely accepted, but I am grateful to have it. And gee the big guys (who apparently know what is best for us) are now copying it.
The LEGEND V6 diesel is in the works (as is MDX, Ridgeline, Pilot and possibly the CR-V and the Element...yes V6). It is not a HUGE risk for Honda to offer it in the Acura RL. What could it do? Sell a few more RLs, and maybe catch on? The feel of the V8 so many whine for and economy, green impact BETTER than the current offer. How DARE Honda change our thinking of what luxury REALLY is? I mean I still wear REAL animal fur coats...'cause that is what someone said luxury was.
Nay Say will not stop intelligent, efficient, progressive engineering for which Honda is known. They last time I heard so much nay say on Honda's product attempts was in the 70s when the CVCC was laughed at. Any the perception of Honda now?
Thank God Honda did not surrender to American know it all mentality, otherwise we'd all still be waiting in line for fuel with our rusted out 1970s 8mpg small penis compensators. Now that is the luxury experience I live for.
But for those who refuse to get beyond the diesel is bad mentality, enjoy filling up your V8 and V10s at the pump. The V6 green diesels will require no urea packs, no consumer maintenance (we are not bright enough) AND they will be 50 state approved. Has Mercedes accomplished that? Oh, it's OK, they are true luxury, they know what is best for us. But what a shock if Honda introduced a V6 green diesel that superceeded the current diesel benchmark, and made it's diesel the new benchmark. As soon as the luxury marques copied it, it then would be OK? Gee..I kinda remember this with something called SHAWD. It ay not be widely accepted, but I am grateful to have it. And gee the big guys (who apparently know what is best for us) are now copying it.
The LEGEND V6 diesel is in the works (as is MDX, Ridgeline, Pilot and possibly the CR-V and the Element...yes V6). It is not a HUGE risk for Honda to offer it in the Acura RL. What could it do? Sell a few more RLs, and maybe catch on? The feel of the V8 so many whine for and economy, green impact BETTER than the current offer. How DARE Honda change our thinking of what luxury REALLY is? I mean I still wear REAL animal fur coats...'cause that is what someone said luxury was.
Nay Say will not stop intelligent, efficient, progressive engineering for which Honda is known. They last time I heard so much nay say on Honda's product attempts was in the 70s when the CVCC was laughed at. Any the perception of Honda now?
Thank God Honda did not surrender to American know it all mentality, otherwise we'd all still be waiting in line for fuel with our rusted out 1970s 8mpg small penis compensators. Now that is the luxury experience I live for.
Tampa, I'm truly not just trying to get your goat talking about diesels. I hope you get all the diesels you can possibly want. But, puh-leeeze, don't denegrate those who don't like them! We have the right, and it's not because we need "penis compensators" or because we have "ice age" or "know-it-all" mentalities. Name-calling just weakens your case.
And I hate to burst your bubble, but Honda did NOT "change the perception of diesels in Europe". I'd say that prize goes to VW, M-B, Leyland, Rover, Renault, Austin and others, who sold tons of them before Honda ever showed up in the European market. I traveled to Europe and the U.K. several times a year for decades before I retired, and diesels have always been a huge part of the scenery there. You could stand by the curb in London, Paris, Munich, Vienna, or any other big European city and choke on the diesel fumes 25 years ago like you can today. The main reason my European friends drive diesels is because their governments tax the crap out of gasoline and larger-displacement engines, because after all, the government knows best.
And I'll admit I'm not a greenie like you seem to be. You probably think Big Oil is behind all this love of V-8's and horsepower, but I personally think Big Environmentalism is behind the green movement and global warming, so I guess we're even.
The bottom line is that Americans do not love diesels, whether they are green or black or orange. They may come to like them some day, but diesel has a big sales job to do before that happens. Sure, some people will buy them if they label them "green", just like some people bought Priuses (
) because they are "green', but diesel has a long ugly history to overcome before it gains acceptance here, and the hardest people to sell will be the buyers of up-market, luxury cars. Not because they need their penises compensated for, but because a few cents saved on a gallon of fuel isn't a big deal when you're already spending $50k or more on your car.So - I'm happy for you to continue your love affair with diesels, but you need to recognize that market forces dictate what mfr's sell in a free market economy, and the market isn't clamoring for diesels just yet. And in the meantime, ease off on those who don't want a diesel ... they think you're just as nuts as you think they are!
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10-10-2007, 09:40 PM
#67
Torch & Pitchfork Posse
GREEN diesels. Of course diesels are not new. But quiet, clean burning, no additional maintenance IS new and Honda introduced them in Europe. And Honda made the effort to awaken the masses that these diesels do not deserve the bad rep you are so cemented in.
You mocked the post with the Honda commercial I posted about diesel PERCEPTIONS because it was a 'cartoon'. You did not listen to the message. You made you mocking statements. You equate Hinda green diesels to the same diesel technology for which the negative opinion is rooted. You continue to perpetuate that Honda green diesels are the same old soot spewing, clanking motors. You cannot get the point that Honda's green diesel is NOT the same as the diesels of decades past. You continue to dismiss the points of Honda diesel technology as the same ole stuff Europeans choke on by the curbside. They are not the same diesel technolgy. This diesel technology was not available as your travels. I dumbfounded me you cannot see the point BEYOND your perception of diesel technology. You continue to speak for the masses. I am not one of them and I WILL speak out against that point. Should everyone reading this thread just assume green diesels are a waste since YOU have been to Europe and saw what diesels are like? What a terribly disservice if your point is not brought into proper perspective.
I never mentioned you. But you want to make broad statements, you can expect opposing views. Perhaps you feel you speak for Americans. I do not agree.
I am simply offering my point, not all will agree but it deserves to be heard. You seem quite eager to stomp the viewpoint and speak so for the masses. I continue to post media references which supports my points, and yet you always know what is better....just because you know what everyone wants. That attitude is you dish out so well is not degrating? You speak many good points, but you seem eager to squelch views you may not subscibe to with your infinite wisdom.
Green diesel technology is not the only solution, nor will it generate tons of sales or rewrite what products are the luxury fashion of the day. But I will not sit back and and witness continuous broad statements made about what is good and what is unfounded by generalized statements that show little regard for alternatives.
You mocked the post with the Honda commercial I posted about diesel PERCEPTIONS because it was a 'cartoon'. You did not listen to the message. You made you mocking statements. You equate Hinda green diesels to the same diesel technology for which the negative opinion is rooted. You continue to perpetuate that Honda green diesels are the same old soot spewing, clanking motors. You cannot get the point that Honda's green diesel is NOT the same as the diesels of decades past. You continue to dismiss the points of Honda diesel technology as the same ole stuff Europeans choke on by the curbside. They are not the same diesel technolgy. This diesel technology was not available as your travels. I dumbfounded me you cannot see the point BEYOND your perception of diesel technology. You continue to speak for the masses. I am not one of them and I WILL speak out against that point. Should everyone reading this thread just assume green diesels are a waste since YOU have been to Europe and saw what diesels are like? What a terribly disservice if your point is not brought into proper perspective.
I never mentioned you. But you want to make broad statements, you can expect opposing views. Perhaps you feel you speak for Americans. I do not agree.
I am simply offering my point, not all will agree but it deserves to be heard. You seem quite eager to stomp the viewpoint and speak so for the masses. I continue to post media references which supports my points, and yet you always know what is better....just because you know what everyone wants. That attitude is you dish out so well is not degrating? You speak many good points, but you seem eager to squelch views you may not subscibe to with your infinite wisdom.
Green diesel technology is not the only solution, nor will it generate tons of sales or rewrite what products are the luxury fashion of the day. But I will not sit back and and witness continuous broad statements made about what is good and what is unfounded by generalized statements that show little regard for alternatives.
10-10-2007, 10:34 PM
#68
AcurAdmirer
Originally Posted by TampaRL
GREEN diesels. Of course diesels are not new. But quiet, clean burning, no additional maintenance IS new and Honda introduced them in Europe. And Honda made the effort to awaken the masses that these diesels do not deserve the bad rep you are so cemented in.
You mocked the post with the Honda commercial I posted about diesel PERCEPTIONS because it was a 'cartoon'. You did not listen to the message. You made you mocking statements. You equate Hinda green diesels to the same diesel technology for which the negative opinion is rooted. You continue to perpetuate that Honda green diesels are the same old soot spewing, clanking motors. You cannot get the point that Honda's green diesel is NOT the same as the diesels of decades past. You continue to dismiss the points of Honda diesel technology as the same ole stuff Europeans choke on by the curbside. They are not the same diesel technolgy. This diesel technology was not available as your travels. I dumbfounded me you cannot see the point BEYOND your perception of diesel technology. You continue to speak for the masses. I am not one of them and I WILL speak out against that point. Should everyone reading this thread just assume green diesels are a waste since YOU have been to Europe and saw what diesels are like? What a terribly disservice if your point is not brought into proper perspective.
I never mentioned you. But you want to make broad statements, you can expect opposing views. Perhaps you feel you speak for Americans. I do not agree.
I am simply offering my point, not all will agree but it deserves to be heard. You seem quite eager to stomp the viewpoint and speak so for the masses. I continue to post media references which supports my points, and yet you always know what is better....just because you know what everyone wants. That attitude is you dish out so well is not degrating? You speak many good points, but you seem eager to squelch views you may not subscibe to with your infinite wisdom.
Green diesel technology is not the only solution, nor will it generate tons of sales or rewrite what products are the luxury fashion of the day. But I will not sit back and and witness continuous broad statements made about what is good and what is unfounded by generalized statements that show little regard for alternatives.
You mocked the post with the Honda commercial I posted about diesel PERCEPTIONS because it was a 'cartoon'. You did not listen to the message. You made you mocking statements. You equate Hinda green diesels to the same diesel technology for which the negative opinion is rooted. You continue to perpetuate that Honda green diesels are the same old soot spewing, clanking motors. You cannot get the point that Honda's green diesel is NOT the same as the diesels of decades past. You continue to dismiss the points of Honda diesel technology as the same ole stuff Europeans choke on by the curbside. They are not the same diesel technolgy. This diesel technology was not available as your travels. I dumbfounded me you cannot see the point BEYOND your perception of diesel technology. You continue to speak for the masses. I am not one of them and I WILL speak out against that point. Should everyone reading this thread just assume green diesels are a waste since YOU have been to Europe and saw what diesels are like? What a terribly disservice if your point is not brought into proper perspective.
I never mentioned you. But you want to make broad statements, you can expect opposing views. Perhaps you feel you speak for Americans. I do not agree.
I am simply offering my point, not all will agree but it deserves to be heard. You seem quite eager to stomp the viewpoint and speak so for the masses. I continue to post media references which supports my points, and yet you always know what is better....just because you know what everyone wants. That attitude is you dish out so well is not degrating? You speak many good points, but you seem eager to squelch views you may not subscibe to with your infinite wisdom.
Green diesel technology is not the only solution, nor will it generate tons of sales or rewrite what products are the luxury fashion of the day. But I will not sit back and and witness continuous broad statements made about what is good and what is unfounded by generalized statements that show little regard for alternatives.
I guess mine are broad statements because they do not agree with yours, but YOU didn't make broad statements like "ice age of diesel mentality", "small penis compensators", "American know it all mentality", etc., to make YOUR point, huh? Hmmmm, I think those are very broad generalizations, myself!
We're distracting from the point of the thread here, so before Bob shuts us down I'll agree to disagree with you on this. But if Honda - or anyone else - comes up with a diesel that is as quiet, as tractable, as clean (as in exhaust soot, which many experts seem willing to ignore), which performs as well as comparable gasoline engines, is as enjoyable to drive, AND is measurably more economical to operate, I'll certainly look into it.
Until then, I guess I'll continue to enjoy my small penis compensators.
You take care, now.
(As always, views expressed on internet forums are the opinions of those who post them, and those opinions in no way represent Biblical truths nor indisputable facts, nor do they reflect the opinions or policies of the masses, nor of the sponsors of the forum. I am Mike_TX, and I approved this message.)
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10-10-2007, 11:06 PM
#69
Race Director
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First of all while the benz does have built in IPOD controls they are kind of a joke. We know someone with a GL and they love the car expect for that. You cant even go through the stereo you have to control them with the wheel so if the passenger wants to mess with them they are just SOL. However a lot of other features mentioned diffenently are neat.
Anyway as far as Acura as a whole I think they have just had a car that hasnt brought them the sucess they hopped for. However look at other companys they have had there failures too. Mercerdes has that R class wagon thing, BMW had that 318, and infiniti had the Q. So while it sucks it doesnt mean the end of Acura.
With the expection of the RL acura has done very well for Honda. The new MDX is selling great and the RDX isnt selling what Acura had hopped for but its on par with the X3. The TL and TSX have also done awesome and even though they are older models still sale fairly well. So 2008 is going to be a big year for Acura so we will see what happens. They have admited there are problems but the thing is they cant fix them overnight so all we can really do is wait......
Anyway as far as Acura as a whole I think they have just had a car that hasnt brought them the sucess they hopped for. However look at other companys they have had there failures too. Mercerdes has that R class wagon thing, BMW had that 318, and infiniti had the Q. So while it sucks it doesnt mean the end of Acura.
With the expection of the RL acura has done very well for Honda. The new MDX is selling great and the RDX isnt selling what Acura had hopped for but its on par with the X3. The TL and TSX have also done awesome and even though they are older models still sale fairly well. So 2008 is going to be a big year for Acura so we will see what happens. They have admited there are problems but the thing is they cant fix them overnight so all we can really do is wait......
10-11-2007, 06:35 AM
#70
I agree that diesels are clean, efficient powerful etc but - 1. I can't buy diesel everywhere 2. Is is not any cheaper to buy and 3. The car costs more in the first place. You only break even, economically, if you keep the car for 200000 miles, which is way longer than most of us wish to keep any car and now you need to sell a Honda diesel with 200000 miles on it? There can only be 3 people in the USA that would ever consider buying that car.
BTW the government in Europe does know best - that is why they tax diesel so high too. They are not going to miss out on income just because the majority drive diesels.
If this thread was based in England I think that the diesel would have the majority on its side but the USA is different . The differences would constitute another thread.
BTW the government in Europe does know best - that is why they tax diesel so high too. They are not going to miss out on income just because the majority drive diesels.
If this thread was based in England I think that the diesel would have the majority on its side but the USA is different . The differences would constitute another thread.
10-11-2007, 06:49 AM
#71
07 RL (non-tech)w/06 Nav
I've been driving diesel trucks for the past 12 years and have made lots of observations. First of all tons and tons of torque. Secondly, newer technologies have made them burn much cleaner, quieter, and yes smoother. Not the same as a gasoline engine, but well on its way. It's all about electronic fuel management and dispersement patterns. On our heavily loaded work trucks (paying a 4.5k premium) the break even mileage is about 100k.
That being said, repairs to diesel engines cost 3 times as much as gas engines. very few mechanics still work on them. (hopefully that will change)
Historically diesel fuel costs less than the premium gas we use now.
That being said, repairs to diesel engines cost 3 times as much as gas engines. very few mechanics still work on them. (hopefully that will change)
Historically diesel fuel costs less than the premium gas we use now.
10-11-2007, 08:08 AM
#72
Go Big Blue!
Interesting analysis
Here's an interesting analysis of data performed by Agent009 over at AutoSpies. It's kind of relevant to this discussion so I'm posting a link to it. Hope it doesn't get blocked (Bob). I think I'll post it in the Car Talk thread also.
http://www.autospies.com/news/Can-Yo...-We-Can-21596/
I won't explain it here. Just go look at it yourself. However, A couple things were surprising. First, Audi sells more cars in the $40k+ range then any of the standard "lux" brands. Also, of the big three jap cars, Infiniti sells the most cars over $40k, with Acura second and Lexus THIRD. Over 73% of it sales are under $40k!! Eventhough Lexus is the only Jap manufacturer venturing into the $70k+ market, they aren't that successful with it.
I have to admit, the reality didn't quite match up with my perception
http://www.autospies.com/news/Can-Yo...-We-Can-21596/
I won't explain it here. Just go look at it yourself. However, A couple things were surprising. First, Audi sells more cars in the $40k+ range then any of the standard "lux" brands. Also, of the big three jap cars, Infiniti sells the most cars over $40k, with Acura second and Lexus THIRD. Over 73% of it sales are under $40k!! Eventhough Lexus is the only Jap manufacturer venturing into the $70k+ market, they aren't that successful with it.
I have to admit, the reality didn't quite match up with my perception
10-11-2007, 02:05 PM
#74
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Europe is 60% Diesel, they ARE coming here, get ready.
They are not like diesels of the past , forget what they used to be.
Also, remember, a diesel won Sebring and also Lemans , first time ever or at least the past 30 years.
They are not like diesels of the past , forget what they used to be.
Also, remember, a diesel won Sebring and also Lemans , first time ever or at least the past 30 years.
10-11-2007, 04:18 PM
#75
AcurAdmirer
Originally Posted by AbovePrime.
The RL, is not a benchmark, period.
bench·mark /ˈbɛntʃˌmɑrk/
Pronunciation[bench-mahrk]
–noun
1. a standard of excellence, achievement, etc., against which similar things must be measured or judged
Given that the RL is arguably the most luxurious, and the most fully-equipped, production car that Honda Motor Company has yet built, I'd have to say it's a benchmark. It is definitely the car against which future Acuras will be judged, and I believe it is the car against which similar offerings from Lexus, Infiniti and others are currently judged.
"Benchmark" doesn't necessarily mean it's the finest example of a product that's been built, merely that it's a standard against which others measure their products.
.
.
10-11-2007, 09:14 PM
#77
My only car is a Bus
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The fattest people in America are the poor.
I'd rather be a pawn than a tool.
Enjoy your ride, pal!
I'd rather be a pawn than a tool.
Enjoy your ride, pal!
Originally Posted by lumpulus
Good for you! This is relevant to this discussion how?
The Acura dealers near me are doing just fine, if their overflow lot near where I work is any indication.....I also see the same salesdroids year after year there(that's rare) and most are pretty chubby so I don't think they're starving.
Buying a car is like playing chess with the sales manager....you're just a pawn.
The Acura dealers near me are doing just fine, if their overflow lot near where I work is any indication.....I also see the same salesdroids year after year there(that's rare) and most are pretty chubby so I don't think they're starving.
Buying a car is like playing chess with the sales manager....you're just a pawn.
10-11-2007, 10:30 PM
#78
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Originally Posted by Mike_TX
From Dictionary.com:
bench·mark /ˈbɛntʃˌmɑrk/
Pronunciation[bench-mahrk]
–noun
1. a standard of excellence, achievement, etc., against which similar things must be measured or judged
Given that the RL is arguably the most luxurious, and the most fully-equipped, production car that Honda Motor Company has yet built, I'd have to say it's a benchmark. It is definitely the car against which future Acuras will be judged, and I believe it is the car against which similar offerings from Lexus, Infiniti and others are currently judged.
"Benchmark" doesn't necessarily mean it's the finest example of a product that's been built, merely that it's a standard against which others measure their products.
.
.
bench·mark /ˈbɛntʃˌmɑrk/
Pronunciation[bench-mahrk]
–noun
1. a standard of excellence, achievement, etc., against which similar things must be measured or judged
Given that the RL is arguably the most luxurious, and the most fully-equipped, production car that Honda Motor Company has yet built, I'd have to say it's a benchmark. It is definitely the car against which future Acuras will be judged, and I believe it is the car against which similar offerings from Lexus, Infiniti and others are currently judged.
"Benchmark" doesn't necessarily mean it's the finest example of a product that's been built, merely that it's a standard against which others measure their products.
.
.
The BMW 5 Series is benchmark, not the RL.
SH-AWD is just what it is, kudos for having it Acura but it surely is not going to make up for an overly soft suspension, It gets out handled by BMW, and Audi which will have a Quattro AWD thats Better than SH-AWD.
10-11-2007, 10:54 PM
#79
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Originally Posted by Mike_TX
From Dictionary.com:
bench·mark /ˈbɛntʃˌmɑrk/
Pronunciation[bench-mahrk]
–noun
1. a standard of excellence, achievement, etc., against which similar things must be measured or judged
Given that the RL is arguably the most luxurious, and the most fully-equipped, production car that Honda Motor Company has yet built, I'd have to say it's a benchmark. It is definitely the car against which future Acuras will be judged, and I believe it is the car against which similar offerings from Lexus, Infiniti and others are currently judged.
"Benchmark" doesn't necessarily mean it's the finest example of a product that's been built, merely that it's a standard against which others measure their products.
.
.
bench·mark /ˈbɛntʃˌmɑrk/
Pronunciation[bench-mahrk]
–noun
1. a standard of excellence, achievement, etc., against which similar things must be measured or judged
Given that the RL is arguably the most luxurious, and the most fully-equipped, production car that Honda Motor Company has yet built, I'd have to say it's a benchmark. It is definitely the car against which future Acuras will be judged, and I believe it is the car against which similar offerings from Lexus, Infiniti and others are currently judged.
"Benchmark" doesn't necessarily mean it's the finest example of a product that's been built, merely that it's a standard against which others measure their products.
.
.
As for a benchmark among other members of its segment, do you really see the other automakers aiming for the kind of sales volume the RL is achieving?
10-12-2007, 01:53 AM
#80
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Originally Posted by lumpulus
Good for you! This is relevant to this discussion how?
The Acura dealers near me are doing just fine, if their overflow lot near where I work is any indication.....I also see the same salesdroids year after year there(that's rare) and most are pretty chubby so I don't think they're starving.
Buying a car is like playing chess with the sales manager....you're just a pawn.
The Acura dealers near me are doing just fine, if their overflow lot near where I work is any indication.....I also see the same salesdroids year after year there(that's rare) and most are pretty chubby so I don't think they're starving.
Buying a car is like playing chess with the sales manager....you're just a pawn.