I can tell you Mercedes-Benz has iPod interfaces that show playlists, songs, etc. Use your steering wheel controls to navigate them. They have night vision cameras, LCD displays for speedometers, Hard-drive based Navis and for burning CDs onto them. Got a Navi in C? Pop your DVD in and watch a movie if the car is stopped. Set the cruise control on their high end cars and it'll speed up, slow down, even stop all with the cruise control on. Take a turn into a corner and a light will shine the way for you. Get into an accident and have side airbags in the back seats to protect you. Tired on your trip? You seat will give you a massage to make you feel better. Or maybe plan your trip out online then email it to your Navi. Or take a PC card and transfer your Outlook contacts right into the car and dial them up with your Bluetooth connection. Open or close your tailgate from the remote, a button inside the car. Or, hit a button on the tailgate and all your doors lock and the tailgate closes.

They have brakes that dry themselves when you put the wipers on, if you take your foot off the gas too fast the brakes will move the pads closer to the discs to stop you faster. Or if you're going to get into an accident the windows close, moonroof closes, seat belts tense up, and if you crash the car calls for help.

Mercedes-Benz makes V6s, V8s, V12s, and supercharged V8s. They make trucks, convertibles, coupes, sedans, roadsters. If one product gets old sell the other ones that are hot. They make AMG models on many of their lines. Their certified warranties go out to 100,000 miles. Their back seats fold flat on most of their models unlike Acuras. They have heated and cooled seats.

You can get many of their models as RWD or AWD. Their base car comes with a 7 speed automatic transmission. Many of their models have paddle shifters and keyless start.

Mercedes-Benz invented electronic stability control, ABS, and side mirror mounted turn signals. Their side mirrors dim automatically.

If your lease is coming up Mercedes-Benz will pay your last 3 payments or even your last 6 depending upon which model you get to ensure you go into another Mercedes-Benz.

Can Acura not do any of these things? They can do them all... probably better. Will they? Not any time soon. That is why sales are down.

 

Those are so of the reasons MB is at the BOTTOM of the reliability charts.

I hope Honda stays the company they are and NEVER follows MB.

 

cl6,
ask anyone who is one this forum...do you want a Mercedes Benz and most of us would say no because we are looking for something different. We like the RL, just that we want a few small improvements in features like cooled seats, headlight washers. true ipod integration, a stronger engine, at least one more gear, and a more up-to-date styling (outside) I never understand people that say this car needs to be rear wheel drive. AWD in the RL is truely the best of both world.

For the price I paid for mine, I could have bought a C series MB...I also could have bought a Honda Civic because they both have the same interior room. To get a lot of the technology like you are speaking of you pay lots of extra$$$$'S for them. The technologies that I am talking about are clearly within Acuras reach without a lot of cost. Acura (on tech models) already have the swivel headlights...Acura Canada has washer headlights...Canada's RL elite has cooled seats...Acura sells a dealer installed option of ipod integration...Acura MDX has a 3,7 motor,...transmissions are farmed out to transmission makers who will make what ever you tell them and the next RL with surely have a 6 speed auto)

Once on the Simpsons an automaker decided to let Homer design a new vehicle. Homer put in all the nice features that he wanted in an automobile. In the end no one would buy it because it was ugly, expensive, and impractical. Like if you were to redesign the RL and add all the nifty MB features and try to market it priced at 65k and you are now priced as a MB, but you don't have the right badge to go along with this price.

Acuras philosophy is to offer moderate upscale vehicles that offer all the available cost effective goodys in one optionless package. they obviously have someone changed this policy with the RL. Looking at a new RL going forward, Acura needs to make this vehicle the undisputed flagship of the Acura line, but needs a sticker of less than 50k. The backseat needs to be much larger, the car needs to be classed as a full size car...it needs a panaramic room (standard) have a naturally inspired 4.0 L v6 with tuning for torque... a 6 speed auto...cooled seats...headlight washers...full ipod intregration and maybe an audio hard drive like Cad...nav that plays DVD while parked...better door hinges...better bluetooth (full phonebook capible)

now you will have a vehicle that competes not only with the e/5/gs/m...size wise it will compete is the ls/7 classes. yet in price is will be at the bottom of the equiped e/5/gs/m

 

Acura and all the other car companies will have all that stuff sooner or later. Yes, you can have it from MB now, but you have to pay the price. Just 30 years ago 90-99% of cars had no ABS, power windows, power door locks, power seats, power steering, power mirrors, side door beams, airbags, halogen or HID headlights, disc brakes, CPUs, AC, stereo radio, cruise control, heated seats, automatic climate control, radial tires, satellite radio, navigation systems, tilt and telescoping steering wheels, cupholders, folding rear seats, tinted glass, remote control, security systems, ambient lighting, LED lighting, moon/sun roofs, digital gauges, TPMS, VSA, traction control, DRLs, intermittent wipers, door pockets, leather seats, rear defroster, rear wipers, but they did have ashtrays and lighters!!!

 

Here is the support document:
C/P:

News
Mercedes last in reliability survey
Christopher Jensen, The Sydney Morning Herald, 08/03/07
Mercedes-Benz has been walloped in a US reliability study that puts it last among the 36 brands evaluated.
‘‘We have seen a fairly rapid decline in reliability for Mercedes over the past five years,’’ says David Champion of Consumer Reports. ‘‘To put it in perspective, a 1998 Lexus LS400wouldlikely have less problems last year than a brand new2006 ML500.’’
The magazine praised Mercedes vehicles for their handling and noted the maker was ‘‘a safety leader’’. But given the reliability rating, the magazine said it could not recommend buying one. This year Consumer Reports’ frequency-of-repair survey got information from its subscribers on 1.3 million vehicles from the 1997 to 2006 model years.

 

M-B plays in the super-premium leagues, and their pricing reflects that. Honda plays primarily in the value leagues, and its offerings reflect that. If anything, the RL is a big departure from the norm for Honda, and I don't think we can realistically expect it to compete with Mercedes for sheer content.

I have to say I'm pleased with all the content the RL DOES have, and much of the cutting edge automobile tech out there today is stuff I wouldn't want or wouldn't use anyway - lane departure warning, cameras that decide if your head is slumping too much and you might be drowsy, night-vision screens, active cruise control, LCD speedometers, self-parking, movie screens (sit out in your car and watch a feature-length movie on a little 8" screen? ), seat massagers, etc., etc.

With a little more interior and trunk room, maybe a 6-spd trans, and a little more engine power, the RL would just about be perfect IMO. If you want to add doo-dads, the cooled seats are realistic, and I'd like that XM Weather add-on to the Nav. And the Tivo-like control for the sound system would be nice. But I don't ask for much more than that. Leave the gee-whiz stuff to the $70,000 cars.

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To quote myself:

"Can Acura not do any of these things? They can do them all... probably better. Will they? Not any time soon. That is why sales are down."

 

But your post title is "What Acura should be doing", and maybe we're saying no they shouldn't.

Look, the point is that Acura isn't trying to be Mercedes. It doesn't want to be Mercedes. In theory, any of a dozen mfr's could make Mercedes-level cars, but they don't want to be in the rather limited market that M-B, BMW and a few others occupy. I think they feel that market is saturated and the growth opportunities are in mid-level lux cars (for Acura) and high-value, sensible cars (for Honda).

And for most of us, that's okay. If we wanted a Mercedes, we'd buy a Mercedes. Hell's bells, I have a buddy at an M-B dealership and my best friend is a retired Daimler-Chrysler executive and I can get M-B's at employee pricing (which is actually less than invoice). But I don't want one right now. (After I drive the new C-class this next weekend, I may change my mind, though.)

So, we're not sitting around moaning about what M-B has that Acura doesn't have. We figure these are pretty damn competent cars. Do we want more stuff? Sure - that's human nature. But we don't want to cross over into M-B pricing territory to get it.

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As usual, Mike hits the nail on the head.

Many of us posting here can afford a Benz or a BMW--I definitely can--but a) see better uses for our dollars, in my case retirement, and b) have less or no need to overly impress the neighbors with our largess.

There are DEFNITELY things Acura needs to address if it wants to be more successful in the mid-luxury market, for example:

--work better with dealerships in sales, and police the dealership experience better to make it more consistent across its 280 dealers
--finding what they want to represent and MARKET that representation to attract other people than Honda fans like myself
--continuous improvement of their products by listening to their customers (cough, low-rpm torque monster V6 ala Nissan's VQ, AND V8 and AWD as options already please, cough)

....among others that have been beaten to death here.

 

I agree with Mike and Bob, if I wanted a MB or BMW I would definetely buy it.
I find the RL better than most but when you add in reliability, it is no contest, easy choice.
The ergonomics in German cars is light years behind Honda/ Acura.
Maybe that is not important to others but I notice it right away. This is only one factor. I could care less about heated or cooled rear seats or watching a movie on the DVD system, pleeeese.
Take a look at how much money you lose on the SL 65, my Ferrari friend bought one new, sold it in 6 months and lost a ton, all the flagship 12 cyclinders lose a ton because the cost of ownership repairs on the 12 cyl is a killer.

 

While I agree with the last statement 100% a correction...it's;

"I COULDN'T care less".

The simple fact I continue to buy Acura products is becuase they are reliable, and I like the styling. If MB or BMW started making a car that was just as or more reliable I would buy it, because I generally like those two make's designs better than the Japanese makers.

 

+1

You represent me perfectly lumpulus. I just look at the complete picture when I shop. No one thing is a huge priiority; reliability, styling, features, cost; they're all equal in the equation. If you have that view, Acura is a powerful competitor. For me, they win pretty much in every car class, not just with the RL. I'm considering what car to buy my daughter when she is a ready for college next year. All things considered, the TSX is the winner. The MDX is the best xover for the money, etc.

However, putting reliability and cost aside, I'd buy a BMW almost everytime. I love the styling, I love the performance characteristics. I love their priorities. But, they loose me when I see the price. For example; I'm still in the hunt for a replacement SUV. The MDX only falls short in my mind because it doesn't have keyless start and access. So, I went and checked out the X5 two weeks ago. Spent 2 hours test driving one and loved it. Sat down at the sales managers desk and started negotiating. Car listed for $70k. Even getting them down to $66k (a huge accomplishment in a BMW dealership), a very good 3 year residual of 60%, and decent money factor, the cost was $950 a month. Can I afford it? Yes. Do I feel it's worth that much money? No. I walked away. I just didn't like it THAT much

I guess when you're at this phase of your life you need to be practical. You can throw care to the wind when you're young and old, but not when you're in the middle and have a family to raise (and like Bob said) a retirement to fund.

 

Why are you trolling in an Acura forum?
Are your sales down?

 

You are the man, Lumpy. Not to pick on Kirby, but that's one of my pet peeves, and I hear it on radio, see it in print and hear people say it all the time.

Here's the deal: You're trying to say that you don't care, right? So, you care so little that you couldn't care any less ... couldn't care less.

Actually, when you say that you COULD care less, you're saying that you do care some. So, it's "I couldn't care less" if you want to convey that you don't give a rat's rear.

[END grammar lesson]

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Sorry - anti-lock brake technology was invented for aircraft before it was applied (by MB) to cars.

 

I agree. If you're in the $100k to $450k price market MB competes very well. I just don't think they are very competitive in the $50-$100k segment (where I am). MB's most popular selling car BY FAR is the C. Why? It's overpriced in a straight features comparison against the G37 or TL, and offers virtually none of the things you just mentioned. It's reliability is subpar to both of those vehicles.

MB has a great brand and average people are willing to buy below average MB products because they want some of that AMG image to rub off on them. Who am I to tell them they are wrong. But, let's not fool ourselves. It's not about the product itself.

 

Actually, I meant to say that, I could care less than I do, which is almost nothing.

Haha, your guys were right, just trying to cover up.

 

You're right, Acura's not trying to be Mercedes and it doesn't want to be Mercedes...it wants to be Maybach or Bentley.

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...hlight=maybach

 

It's a common mistake. It seems more people say it that way, than the proper way. I always just thought it evolved from speech laziness, aka "Economy of utterance". Kinda like when ya talk like dis. Saves breath Doesn't matter. We know what you meant

 

I don't know, Mikey ... I'm still leaning toward slapping him on the hand with a ruler like my old English teacher did.

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LOL. Maybe because I'm originally from NYC and we're the worst offenders of speech laziness. Although, I don't think Texas is far behind us

 

I can excuse the Could/Couldn't mistake.....the one I rant about to anyone I hear doing it incorrectly is the CORRECT pronounciation of Porsche....It's TWO SYLLABLES pronounced POR-SHA, not Porsh...they even say it incorrectly on TV! It "drives"(pun intended) me insane.

 

It is interesting the reactions here. Something tells me that Acura's approach to 'luxury' is not working:

"TORRANCE, Calif. -- Record sales of the MDX luxury SUV and RDX turbocharged SUV contributed to Acura September sales of 14,369 units, down 8.4 percent versus last year based on the daily selling rate."

While I wasn't suggesting Acura clone themselves into a Mercedes-Benz what I was saying was that obviously their approach isn't working so perhaps putting the luxury back into their product line-up is necessary, using some examples of features found in one brand's stable. Everybody here has just said: "Well we don't want a Mercedes" but I think you missed the point, which is ironic because of all the threads about why the RL doesn't sell.

 

That goes without saying CL. You probably won't get much argument from anyone on that. Actually, I'm not even sure what you would call their cars (or target market). It's certainly upscale from Toyota, Nissan, Chevy, etc. But they don't offer the features and products (as MrDeeno, you, and many others always point out) to really declare them "all in" on this luxury game. They certainly have the financial resources and skill to do it. But the way they have their products placed, they are only interesting to a small segment of the population (which I am a part of). It's a valid question to ask Acura; Are you in or out on this game? I'm not sure they've made up their minds yet.

 

I had never worked for another brand before Acura. I always figured they were a luxury brand like Lexus, just more sporty. After quite a few years there I learned that the way the honchos think of themselves is not the way the public does. My Acura does feel like a nicer Honda (I've driven tons of Hondas). Anyway working for a diffrerent luxury brand has showed me how Acura is not really in the same category. I always figured the Germans had inferior technology. Well, they don't. Poorly applied, maybe, but even this is changing; everybody has caught up or is catching up.

I drove a Mercedes yesterday that as I hit some turns the side bolsters of the seats inflated and deflated to keep me in the seat. It was weird but pretty awesome at the same time.

I remember the big issue at Acura when iPods were becoming the norm was whether the playlist could be displayed on the nav screen or radio. Well, they still can't even after 3 years but other brands can.

Clearly Acura needs to put up or shut up. Depending upon what the 2009 TL looks like I guess we'll know.

Anyway, my two cents.

 

Yep, very cool. My sister just bought a new BMW 750Li last month and when I drove it the first time I was impressed how the driver seat actually angles as you enter a sharp curve (like a banking street). Very nice.

But having said that, it was $90,000!!! and really wasn't worth the price (articulating seats and all). Point is, anyone can create a fantastic car when price is no object. I can just imagine what Honda could build for $90k.

Which brings us back to the topic of this thread; what should Acura be doing? It's their call and I honestly don't think they know yet. I personally don't know what they are afraid of. If I was running the show I think I'd be inclined to say let's broaden our product line to -- at least -- follow Lexus' strategy. They could easily build a LS, S, and 750 killer. I just don't think Honda's culture and leadership is comfortable in the "luxury" arena, and it shows. I see some signs of change in their thinking but it seems too painfully slow to be really successful. They are too conservative and so afraid of making a mistake that they end up doing nothing.

 

From what little I knew I gather there is a tug between Japan and America. Ironically, by being afraid of making a mistake they are making a mistake.

I'm not saying a $70,000 Acura is the answer... but it's clear to me Acura isn't a 'luxury' brand. Subaru gets by being quirky, so does SAAB. Maybe Acura will just continue to be a niche player who is losing market share..?

Toyota is eating everybody's lunch.

 

+1 on Toyota. They do everything right.

Regarding being unsure about a $70k Acura; I think that's exactly what they should do. If they don't want to be a quirky niche maker then fill out your product line with a full offering. That's a START. Hell, even SAAB has more choice then Acura. They just don't have enough product to draw enough customers into the showroom to hit critical mass!

I'll tell you another thing (and I bet you'll agree having been a salesman there). Their showroom design sucks. I walk in an Acura showroom and it looks like a morgue. There's no excitment. The layout is terrible with the reception desk right in the middle of the showroom with partitions that block your view of all the other cars from any point on the floor. My dealers showroom is so small he can only fit 4 cars on the floor. The sales manager and Finance desks are in the front blocking windows and making the place seem even smaller and darker. I'm not sure if most Acura dealers are laid out that way, but, in contrast I walked into that BMW dealership last month looking at the X5's. You would think they were having a party and giving cars away. A huge bright showroom with sales desks and offices in the BACK and huge floor to ceiling windows on 3 sides. large banners hanging from the ceiling (tastfully done). The showroom was 5 times the size of an Acura dealership and had 12-15 cars on the floor. They had at least two examples of each model on the floor. Presentation is important. I'm sure their dealership designs is another thing that hurts Acura a bit.

 

Sony was eating Microsoft's and Nintendo's lunch a few years ago - look at how that turned out when the next-gen consoles were launched.

Lets see what Acura/Honda delivers for the next TL, TSX, and RL (or whatever it's called) before declaring them dead. If they screw those up then it's fair to write them off as clueless.

 

This is a point I've made many times in the past.

Acura has certainly scored successes with the MDX, TL, and TSX.

However, they are not perceived by those outside of the fold (Honda-folken like myself) as a luxury brand.

Acura has to decide: Are they a luxury brand or are they the sport branch of Honda? Or are they both? And how will they get whatever message they want out to the dealers and the public? I agree with CL6 that the 2009 TL will set the stage for Acura's next act. If it bombs, Acura will become another Saab--a meaningless niche player in the shadow of Honda. And the next RL won't matter at all, as those of us who want luxury and some sport move on to BMW.

I am thankful that my RL is good enough that I can wait out (or not, depends on product) whatever changes occur at Acura.

 

Showrooms vary by dealer but maybe not the mentality.

And as far as video game consoles go, Microsoft has almost no sales outside the U.S. which just leaves Sony and Nintendo. I wouldn't compare old Sony's position with that of Nintendo, which was like Sega was before the Wii came out.

I'm not writing Acura off but we're talking years of work that'll be required and not making any mistakes... but bigger upsets have happened in the world.

 

I don't believe Acura is dead or dying.

Acura is simply a smaller niche market, similar to Volvo or Saab. I don't think Acura will ever be as large, as recognized or equally comparable to large luxury marques.

And I do not think Honda cares to. Honda and Acura automotive are relatively small car companies in comparison to the big name car companies. Honda / Acura automotive are also a small segment of Honda which has a vast array of produtcs and interests. That said the number of Honda and Acura vehicles on the road is very impressive. They may not be the king of the hill contenders, but they are certainly on the radar of enough consumers to be profitable. Maybe our RL is not a winner, but it is in a segment that the typical Honda / Acura buyer cares not to be wooed.

Honda exec's admitting speak to conservative consumers who appreciate value, excellent engineering, practical functionality, efficiency and ecologically considerate. They believe there are consumers who can look past the brand logo and see the product behind the marque. Those core values can easily conflict with the flash, verve and superfluous attributes that most Americans equate with luxury. It does not get the attention of the US branding mentality.

Meanwhile the luxury market as a whole is contracting in current market conditions. This contraction will certainly draw consumers into the big brands and fewer brand choices are needed.

With the Honda brand still growing in sales, there may be intent to upsell the growing loyal Honda clientel base as opposed winning other marque clientel. That would be a healthy base to work with, and less need to differentiate Acura from other marques. Acura in effect, is just the higher end of the Honda lineup. If so, Acura is Honda Deluxe. Is there anything really wrong with that?

But Acura does have some work cut out. If they wish to maintain a niche market mentality, they need to better define that niche. If they are OK with a smaller piece of the pie, they better make sure that pie tastes pretty damn good and leaves a lasting memory. And if Honda models offer so much flavor of Acura pie, what will lure even Honda buyers to try Acura pie?

Conservative values will reep conservative results.

 

Yes, there's something wrong with that. Their sales are going in the opposite direction of most of their competition. Their products are not that unique to classify them as a niche car maker. They are in no where's land. Talented and product knowledgable salemen (like CL6 and my brother) are leaving Acura. Their showrooms are empty on a Saturday. I think it's worse then you realize.
The status quo is not an option.

 

You're right. Honda is driven by a philosophy and culture that just doesn't translate to the luxury arena. They managed to put the luxury Japanese car on the map with a strong value proposition and well-engineered cars that were new and novel to the mid-luxury market. But most of all, they made their mark by being first -- which made them unique.

Lexus (and Infiniti) took the Japanese luxury approach one step higher, delivering more upmarket class-competitive (or better) features, stronger customer service, and an even stronger value proposition at a higher price point.

Volkswagen has been trying to go upmarket for the last 5+ years, to little avail. Sometimes the brand can't support the image the marketers might want. Witness the defunct Phaeton, for example. They'll still sell cars, but not in every slot in the model range. Heck, even VW had an 8-cylinder Passat for a while.

GM abandoned Oldsmobile, and you can still get similar cars at the Buick shop. Saturn is going from their plastic-bodied philosophy to a mix of rebadged Opels that are certainly more compelling. To be fair, Honda is a much smaller company and doesn't have the resources of GM, so they have to be somewhat more conservative.

I'm glad that Honda made the Legend and Acura sells it here. But what would Acura really be giving up if they abandoned the RL to focus on their more successful products? The car certainly isn't doing much for their US lineup.

Maybe its "fanboy" of me, but the Acura product mix is reasonably competitive overall. Given the conservative philosophy of the parent organization with respect to the product, Acura could more easily rebuild/re-establish their brand image more quickly with improved customer service and a consistent advertising message then re-engineering their products for a halo car (as much as we might like one) or compression seats.

Rob144

 

People don't want to buy (and service) their $60k Phaeton in the same place as a $16k Beatle. At least Acura figured that out .

 

I have to chime in on this one...

Honda is not a car company it's a motor company. The generalized thought is that Honda wants to compete with the Germans. In essence it's the reverse. The Germans are trying to compete with Honda. Honda has been the bench mark since the Civic, Accord, Legend, then the RL. With BMW, MB, and Toyota capitalizing and attempting to raise the bar with the majority of success going to Toyota (Jap GM).

If Honda wanted to build a supercharged 70K plus luxury performance car, they would have, but Honda builds on performance, reliability, and consistency. I would be disappointed if Honda produced a 70K luxury performance car since that is not what the company is about.

 

I didn't know you had family in the business. How long was your brother with Acura and what does he do now if you don't mind me asking.

I heard from a friend still with Acura that more than a few customers have told him they heard people saying how sales were down and it was a good time to get a deal. Good for the consumer but not for a sales person.

 

My brother worked as an Acura saleman for 10 years. Several dealerships from NJ to Florida. It got tougher and tougher over the last few years to make a good living (as you know) and simultaneously an opportunity came up (outside the car industry) that he couldn't turn down. He left earlier this year. He was a great salesman and new those products inside and out. They lost a good asset to the company.

He/I still have mutual friends at the last dealership he worked at (where I bought the RL) so I know how tough it still is. For example, yes, the MDX sales are good. But what those numbers don't show (as you know first hand) is that virtually every MDX going out the door has sold near or at invoice the last 6 months (that was told to me just last week directly by the sales manager). The dealerships are struggling. Last month this dealership RDR'd 69 units!!! This is a small dealership but that's terrible even for them.

I guess that's why I still get rapped up in talking about Acura's future. It's sort of personal still. I want them to do good for the sake of my friends over there. I get frustrated when I continue to see little signs of smart moves.

 

Uh, so BMW is aiming for 357 5-series sales a month?

I think acura's mentality that everyone is trying to compete with them is what got them into this mess they're in in the first place.

 

You are incorrect in your portrayal of what Honda thinks concerning Acura. If you kept up with some of the news, Acura is NOT happy with the way RL sales are going, and they have been obviously TRYING to move upmarket for years...hence the $50k MSRP for the RL, killing of the RSX, and upmarket movement of the various models (MDX, TL). Further, statements have been made by Honda's top-brass that Acura is not at a level that they would like to to be at.

And as unbelievable or outrageous as they are, some over there at Acura make claims that they want to compete with Bentley and Maybach, or to skip V8's and go directly to V10 engines.

It seems more like Honda wants people to accept Acura as having a brand image like BMW or MB, or even Lexus, but then take a half-assed approach to achieve it...I knew a kid in high school who always got C's or lower, but thought he deserved A's, even though he never put in the work or effort to actually get A's. That's what Acura is like...wanting more but not putting in the extra effort needed to really shine. There's no question that Honda is able to do it or not, but there's a big difference between "being able to do it" and "doing it".