Rob L

OK I was reading the thread today and noticed mr deeno say something where he implied the reason why the GS and MB E class sell well compared to the RL is because they are the better product. He said the GS is a semi-great product while the RL is mediocre....HUH?

Having driven both there is noooooooooooooooooooooo way a logical human being without bias can say the GS is the superior car. NO WAY.

It is clear the RL hasn't sold as well simply because it is an Acura. As my man jhr3uva90 said, if the RL was a Lexus it'd be selling 2-3 times as well. It is simple FACT this segment is brand/image based and the quality of overall product really does not matter all that much. The ONLY exception is if there is a product that performs amazingly well for a good price which is the M. If the M45 wasn't whipping out segement leading acceleration numbers then it wouldnt be selling as well. Also, the G35 with all its media love really got people to think of Infiniti and that has helped with the M sales and got some loyal customers who have probably upgraded to the M...without the G me thinks the M would be selling like the RL has. From what I have seen/read the TL is a good product but it wasnt a benchmark car like the G35 was when it hit the market so it didnt attract as many buyers as the G has. Hell, simple visual proof of this is simple. I see a lot of G35s to/from work while I barely see any TLs. Now you take all those G owners who probably have had good experiences with Infiniti and bam, they will most likely look within to upgrade and there is that nice new M. With Acura you don't have that.

I know everyone is entitled to their opinion and by no means am I saying the RL is perfect or the best car in the segment but I am so damn sick and tired of people acting like the car is mediocre compared to the rest of the segment and that is the reason for lower sales when it is easily the image issue. The RL is by far better than the new GS yet there is the GS outselling it with ease and the reason is simply because the GS is a Lexus. There is NOTHING aside from less noise at highway speeds that the GS has over the RL in terms of overall package. Yeah you can get the big bad V8 but you pay a big premium for that and maybe I'm in the minority but price factors into a car's overall package. Oh and the RL outhandles the GS. Numbers prove this as does my driving both.

BTW I'm a Lexus head so there is no Acura/RL bias here. Had I felt the GS was better I would have regretted getting the RL and thought of ways to trade it in for a GS but after I drove the GS for 2 days I realized how much better the RL is and so did the other people who have been in my RL and drove around in the GS.

The way I see it is like this:

RL has better luxury than the GS, E class, 5 series
RL has better handling than the GS, E class, 5 series without the sport package
RL has basically equal acceleration to the GS300, E350, 535
RL is cheaper and offers more STUFF than those 3 cars

The RL flat out is as good or better than it's v6 counterparts in every way and it comes at a better price with respect to what you get. The only V6 that seems to compare is the M35. Yeah you can go talk about the V8 versions of those models but the V8s aren't the cars that are whipping up those sales figures so wtf cares.

How anyone can say it is mediocre compared to the segment competition is beyond me.

Seems like the only thing the RL is missing is a v8 option and if that makes a WHOLE LUXURY CAR mediocre then well, I won't comment on what I think of that "logic" because my opinion of someone who thinks that isn't all that nice nor is it for me to share on a public forum. hehe.

Cog Neuro Sci

Don't forget looks. The GS exterior is pretty impressive with its sleek detailing combined with complex curves. (even though its side-view silhouette and rear end were clearly borrowed from the Nissan Maxima). The RL is comparatively vanilla with straight lines and much simpler curves.

No engine in the world can compare to a Honda. Honda has the best V8 in Formula One, which is no surprise at all, and Honda has the best 6-cylinder engines in the world. The Nissan VQ has won awards and receives its reputation due to its versatility and longevity, NOT based on any engineering excellence factors. The VQ is not technologically impressive in any way and is inferior to Honda V6's in EVERY WAY. When Honda is ready to bring out a V8, it will be superior to every other V8 in the world. NO ONE makes engines better than Honda, not even Ferrari.

iNteGraz92

great thread. it really is all about the badge. lame excuse or not, that is the truth. people nitpick saying "it's needs this it needs that." but seriously, do you really think adding things will automatically make more people buy it? hell no.

iNteGraz92

the v8 argument is pure cop out material. i've been saying it forever. why does the rl need a v8 when the majority of its competitors cars that sell are v6s? why? people never give an explanation, they only say "it needs a v8 to compete." wtf?

mrdeeno

i've given an explanation for this but no one seems to acknowledge it.


these are straight from your posts...the reason it needs a v8 to compete is because it IS an image thing.

it doesn't "need" a v8, no manufacturer does. but it needs a v8 to "compete" in this market segment.

that's the VERY reason why it needs one, but no one seems to acknowledge the "halo" effect of having a v8, instead focusing on straight sales numbers.

mrdeeno

what I mean is the overall offerings of the RL vs. GS, including whatever drivetrain/engine is available.

But after reading your post I will correct myself because I do agree that I short-changed the RL and will reclassify it as semi-great with the E and GS being mediocre, even with the v8 offerings of the E and GS.

mrdeeno

Don't get all pissed off again, but for the sake of argument and everyone's enlightenment, can you please give reasons, either opinions or fact, why Nissan's VQ is inferior to Honda's v6.

You stated that the VQ has won awards for versatility and longevity, but is still inferior to Honda's v6. So the VQ has versatility and longevity. What does Honda's v6 have that makes it so superior?

bkw

10 Best Engines from Ward's:

http://wardsauto.com/reports/2006/tenbest/

It's disheartening that I don't see any Honda motors anywhere on the list, but I do see BMW's I6, and V6's from Toyota and Nissan.

Here's a blurb from the nominees:
3.5L SOHC V-6 (Acura RL)
290 hp/256 lb.-ft.
For: Big-gun horsepower.
Against: Stiff price.
Sum-up: Loses some panache thanks to SAE rating.


Is it time for Honda to develop a V8 for the general populous? I strongly believe so.

On a side note, arent the VQ35DE made by Renault? Lovely motor, especially when mated to the 6sp transmission - Just wish it werent such a hog.

mrdeeno

theoretically, no because the VQ architecture was developed by Nissan before Renault got involved with the company.

but technically, you can say it was "co-developed" with Renault because the 3.5L VQ was developed after Renault took a controlling stake in Nissan.

but that's like saying the current Hemi engine is made by Mercedes. It can be true on a stretched technicality, but it's not a very accurate description.

nguyendminh

I like the RL's styling because through time Iwill not get sick of it, like the GS/IS
However I disagree on this point "RL as basically equal acceleration to the GS300, E350, 535." I can live with the fact that it gets the worse mileage, but then I'll have to able to justify and say that, but I am the fastest. I cannot justify being the slowest and get the worse mileage.

The RL' is the slowest out of the group and gets the worse mileage out of the group. All of the competitors have 6 speed tranny and above (improves mileage)

I will buy the RL in a heartbeat if they add a 6 AT speed tranny and power, maybe they can add the supercharger from the RDX !! Until then I will hold of on the purchase of the RL.

mrdeeno

But then again, some believe that this engine doesn't get rewards based on "engineering excellence factors" and is "not technologically impressive in any way and is inferior to Honda V6's in EVERY WAY"

...and without any supporting evidence of how Honda V6's are superior either, mind you.

mrdeeno

I like the RL's styling also, but they need to 'tweak' it a little by adding more aggressive rims/tires, because that is the weakest point.

But for the 6spd AT argument, the M has a 5spd auto also, but the M45's unit is from the QX56/Armada, same gear ratios and all, (don't know where the M35's is from, maybe the G35?). so with the lesser amount of torque in the M45's engine compared to the QX56, at least we know the M45's tranny can take more torque safely. And since this tranny is geared for acceleration in the QX56, it also SUCKS when it comes to gas mileage on the M45.

jhr3uva90

Some random comments:

1) I think that the RL's "plain" styling will age well. This car will not look dated in 5 years like some other cars. Sometimes it is good to be conservative. Like mrdeeno said, some new rims would help add a little spice.

2) RL's the slowest by what, a fraction of a second? And do those "faster" cars have AWD? I'd rather have SH-AWD and give up a negligible bit of speed, personally. Then again, maybe that's just me.

3) The average luxo-car driver has no idea whether her/his car has a 6-speed or a 5-speed tranny. That's not really a selling point. Honda/Acura would be better off taking money that they would have spent developing a new tranny and spending it on actually advertising the RL and building Acura into a brand where people might want to spend $45K+.

4) A V8 (or V10) is a good idea IF Acura is able to put the engine in more than one model. If the V8 could be used in the new MDX and the RL and a true flagship car the way Lexus uses its V8 in the GS, LX, GX, SC, and LS, then that would be adventageous.

5) In fact, the MDX should share as many parts with the RL as possible. The economy of scale should reduce the cost of the RL as well as the MDX.

6) The RL should be offered with an optional manual tranny!

mrdeeno

This has been the way Acura's designs always were...they were tasteful but bland. Just add some "seasoning" like better wheels and minor details.


Well, to each his own, which is why the other automakers offer different engine/drivetrain choices, so for people who will give up AWD for speed, negligible (v6) or not (v8), they can still stay with the brand.


yup yup. or rather, they could spend the money developing a new tranny, and get rid of that damn robot and and spend that money on advertising the RL and Acura.


But which came first, the engine or the vehicle using the engine? it's gotta start somewhere, and one V8 and one platform capable of using the V8 would be that starting point. If the only way to justify building a V8 is how many current platforms it can be built on, then it will never be justified because none of the current platforms can take a v8. They have to build a v8 for future applications.


I think a V8 would be more important than offering a manual, but since they already have a manual that would work this this engine, it wouldn't cost them too much to offer a manual unless it interferes with the SH-AWD. I dont' think it would help sales too much, considering 3 out of the 4 leaders in this segment don't offer manuals in this market (E, GS, M).

jhr3uva90

Hopefully, the V10 will come to fruition. Maybe Honda will be able to apply it to various cars. They need to hurry up, though!

Also, it's a shame that Lexus released a hybrid GS before Acura released a hybrid RL. Where are the hybrid Acuras?

And I'm starting to agree with mrdeeno: once you start selling $45K+ cars, you need to start offering some options. I bet there are customers willing (or crazy) enough to drive a FWD version of the RL.

Cog Neuro Sci

Here you go again. More mind games because you don't hear what you want. More sharp jabs subtly presented in seemingly rational ways. I will ask you again to refrain from cutting people down or I'll write to the moderator again. This forum is not about power and control issues.

Anyone who knows knows that Wards doesn't give awards based on technological superiority. I have already listed why the VQ has won its awards. There are too many great engines out there and only a few spots for awards. In addition, pure emotion and sentimentality are factors as well, what with the Renesis rotary winning the award in the year the RX8 came out symbolizing the long-awaited return of the rotary. Its nice to win a Wards but the award can be taken with a grain of salt in general.

Much has been written about the VQ's traits since the 350z came out a few years ago in the popular press. You don't even have to be into engines. A superficial skim of information will help you jump on the bandwagon and hype. Just a tiny tiny deeper skim gets you all the criticisms available, which is essentially very accessible common knowledge.

I find it shocking that you're able to come out with the information that you have without ONE SINGLE criticism of Nissans and the VQ and without ONE SINGLE fact about Honda engine technology and superiority. The probability of all those factors coming together is extremely unlikely.

I believe you're holding out and choosing to subject people to a "college debate." My response is you need to do your own homework and answer your own questions. If you already have, then you need to write them down in this forum to your own satisfaction. I have merely pointed out all the areas where you are wrong. If you don't like it, then list your counter-evidence, if that makes you happy.

You can WANT to love Nissan, but you still got to do your homework. I can WANT to love Honda, but I still got to do my homework, which I have for both carmakers. And I bought neither.

mrdeeno

hey, there were people crazy enough to drive a FWD version of the A6.

Like some have said before, most people, except for magazine editors and enthusiasts, don't know or care which wheels are driving the car. But what they do know is what magazines and enthusiasts say.

But if the car has other attributes that shadow this problem, then it "may" be overlooked. I don't hear magazines and enthusiasts ranting about the A6 being a FWD-based car, I hear them raving about the exterior styling and interior quality.

I think the biggest reason why the A6 isn't doing well is because of its relative cost and reliability (or lack thereof).

jhr3uva90

The A6's sales might be meeting Audi's expectations, for all we know. I think these car companies have some idea how many units they will sell. I doubt if Audi thinks they will sell as many A6's (with 2 variations) as BMW sells 5 series (with God knows how many variations).

That being said, I think the advantage of a FWD RL is so Acura can say "base MSRP $42K."

mrdeeno

No one else seems to have a problem supporting their ascertains with either opinions OR facts, and this is very much appreciated by ALL of us because this induces further discussion.

but if you feel SO THREATENED when asked to support your viewpoint, then please, by all means, report me to a mod.

You still have yet to provide ANY evidence for your ascertain that Honda's V6 is superior to Nissans VQ.

vp911

I am all for a good debate. I have deleted a couple posts from this thread to keep it going. The people involved have been sent warnings.

Cog Neuro Sci

Thanks vp911. Most of us are just here for information and a good conversation.

dalieu

we live in brand driven society, image is everything. i dont think it matters if the RL had a V8 option or not, the common person doesnt see acura as a luxury brand. when i got my tsx, someone asked me, 'why didnt you get a lexus or bmw?' it didnt matter what i had in the car and that it was a better package.

acura and its dealerships should really work to change their image. there should be standards and regulations, all dealerships should have the same policy for everything. example, the dealer i bought my car from gives you loaners through enterprise, whereas the dealer i take my car for regular service gives you acura loaners. why the inconsistency?

Cog Neuro Sci

Don't underestimate the ability of Infiniti and Lexus dealership salespeople to harp over and over and over on the fact the RL doesn't have a V8 and thus effectively spread whatever fact or propaganda.

When the atrociously, notoriously poorly engineered Altima and Maxima first came out, the Nissan salespeople were trained on how to employ a two-pronged attack on the Accord. When I was at one of the largest Nissan dealerships in the world several years ago right after the Maxima arrived at the dealerships, I told them I was also looking at the Accord V6 as well. The salesperson immediately tells me that the Accord is more at the Altima level, that the Maxima is a step up, to which I promptly replied that the Accord V6 is superior to both and explained about all the Altima and Maxima platform, chassis, and interior shortcuts that were written about in magazine after magazine after magazine. Later I went to another Nissan dealership and the salesperson doused me with the exact same spiel.

This is without argument an effective vehicle for image manipulation that is more widely used in the industry now AND can be connected to other factors such as having or not having a V8.

So above I've suggested a mechanism by which the fact the RL doesn't have a V8 might enter into the consumer consciousness. But the question remains: Is this actually being employed by the competitors?

Has anyone who has shopped for an M or GS had a similar experience at an Infiniti or Lexus dealership? I wouldn't be surprised if there are company-wide efforts to discredit the RL for bland styling and not having a V8. If not, then maybe the RL is almost a ghost in the market and Lexus and Infiniti don't even have to bother.

jhr3uva90

Funny, when I went to the Lexus dealership, they acted like the RL didn't exist, like it was beneath them. At the Infiniti dealership, they kept comparing the M to the TL. That was a year ago, though. I wonder what they would say now?

Personally, I think Legend/RL should have come out sooner so they could have had the field to themselves longer. Also, they should have released a V8 YEARS ago, and the V10 is taking forever. It kind of makes me wonder of Honda really wants to compete in the luxury car market. Maybe they feel like they can make more profit in airplane engines?

Cog Neuro Sci

What you report is interesting. So it appears their respective strategies are to (1) not mention the RL and let it remain invisible and (2) to go after the hot-selling TL because, once again, the RL is invisible and a non-factor.

jhr3uva90

Or 3) compare the M to the TL because the substantially more expensive M is clearly superior to the TL, but not quite as superior to the RL (which is in the same class). It's kind of like comparing a high-school student to a precocious middle-school kid.

stokdgs

Believe the V10 was less than 5 Liters and the new V8 all must use this year is like 2.4 Liters putting out a little over 700hp. Love the cars, have had many of their models. Honda has not been winning alot of F-1 races however in either platform - in fact, last race they blew a couple of their V8's up. Jenson Button is the best driver they have, but they are not up to speed like Renault has been last year and this year, putting Ferrrari in their place (finally). It looks to me like they being so conservative to do alot of bold moves in the Marketplace, it may be awhile. Anyone who participates in F-1 racing has to be dumping upwards of 4-500K or more, probably alot more a year just to compete. Maybe they need to be looking more at the customers who help pay for all this, eh? I still like my RL with all the 2,800 miles on it, it works just fine. I do, however, want to lose those crappy loud Michelin RX tires and get something else, but that goofy size 245/50/17 is not poplular with all the tiremakers. All I want is great grip, dry or wet, and quiet, quiet, quiet. Im hoping I dont have to gut the dang thing and put in Dynamat. Any ideas? Tks DanF

jhr3uva90

I thought the RL used the same tire size as the TL, TSX and the old CL? If so, there should be some tire options. Some folks have recommended tires in other threads.

NorCalRL

The OEM tires are Michelin Pilot HX MXM4, which many people find to be loud and annoying. I'm one of them.

If you want to use the stock wheels, the best tire choice (IMHO) is the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S. I bought a set of four and I'm much more satisfied. I would prefer a summer tire, but this is a very odd size tire with very few choices.

www.TireRack.com has all the details about both tires including ratings from owners. The OEM tire is rated 16th out of 17 tires in its class. I'm not the only one who thinks that its a piece of junk.

psteng19

This is one of the most absurd statement's I've ever read.
Ward's does not rate engines due to versatility and longevity. If it did, then the GM 3800 would still be on the list since it's been around forever and in many vehicles. And it is a damn fine engine as well.

The VQ wins awards because it is a good freakin' motor. It makes good power and torque through all RPM's and is smooth as butter.
Yes, it's gotten more "rough" as they increased its displacement, but it is still considered one of, if not, the best V6's manufactured.
Back in 3.0L form, it was the most powerful (NA) and refined V6's available.


No, the VQ35DE is based on the VQ30DE which has been around since the mid-90's, well before Renault bailed Nissan out.

static808

Met a few friends at dinner before a NJ Devils Hockey Game last week. We left around 7pm, so sunlight was still around. The valet pulled my Black Acura RL up and the first thing my friend said.....Did you buy a Honda? I corrected him..and he noticed the A on the grille and was a little embarrassed for saying Honda...I said no big deal.

I hope the Acura brain-trust in Torrance finally detach the Honda design from the entire Acura lineup. That is probably hurting them more than V8 engines or $45K prices.

msu79gt82

I too am somewhat confused by the V8 "reason" - however i have been doing some totally unofficial "research" recently and am surprised by what I see. Here in the Houston area the overwhelming majority of Lexus GS I see on the road are V6s (GS300). However I am somewhat surprised to say that the vast majority of the new '06 Ms I see on the road are V8s (M45). Not sure what to make of my observations, but the percentage of Ms I see on the road in metro-Houston that are V8s surprised me.

jhr3uva90

Actually, Acura's separate design studio should be up and running next year. They will probably inherit the people who designed the TL.

Rergarding the V8 issue, roughly 14%-15% of the GS's sold are V8's. Infiniti does not break out its V6 and V8 sales, so it is hard to determine what the percentage is.

stokdgs

NorCalIRL, Thanks for the information, yeah these factory installed Michelins are the worst. I have had the Pilot Sports on a couple of BMW M cars and they really worked great on them. I will look at the website you said to check and see what I can find. I have also run a few Pirelli tires on a couple of cars in years past and they seemed to be a good, quiet, tire too. Its just this wierd size, 245/50/17 that not alot of people make tires for anymore. I lived about 35 years in NorCal too, in the Sacramento, Carmichael, Rancho, Folsom, areas. Loved being about 100 miles from the Bay or Tahoe !! Miss it terribly, although, I see that you are getting a little taste of the rain we have up here in Bellevue, pretty much all winter and periodically the rest of the time too. Tks again, DanF

jhr3uva90

Does anyone have the 18 inch gun metal wheels?

msu79gt82

Again just an observation; but I saw one GS and one M on my commute today - a GS300 (V6) and an M45 (V8).

jhr3uva90

You know, the whole V8 arguement might become moot if Honda would just create a hybrid version of the RL. Also, according to rumour, the new MDX's engine might go into the RL.

On a side note, it's a shame how Lexus can debut an LS that has AWD, a V8, and a hybrid. Come on, Acura!

Rattler

I just purchased a car after over a year of research and comparison between the RL, GS and M. I've driven them all several times and can quote, from memory, the differences and the Pros and Cons on a strictly factual basis. I didn't even consider MB or BMW(horrible reliability and outdated interiors).

This past weekend I chose the Acura RL. I personally was not looking to impress anyone with badging and wanted to get the most value and fun for the money. I quicky ruled out the GS and was leaning toward the M.

In short, I wanted the PERFECT BLEND OF LUXURY AND PERFORMANCE. If that's what you are after in this segment, the Acura RL can't be beat.

jhr3uva90

Congrats on the new purchase!

shepsan

This is another thread in which people proclaim their opinions about why the Acura RL fails to meet the competition’s sales figures. Who cares? I really do not understand the constant vocalizing about sales figures or the failure of the Acura V6 to match the power of the other’s V8’s. Don’t people do research before buying a car? Then, after buying, who cares how many cars are being sold?

When I bought my 2005 RL, I did so for what it was; not for what it wasn’t, didn’t have or could not do. I bought it for what I expected it to be and was not disappointed in its looks or performance. I saw that for its cost, the RL provided me with more luxury, performance and technology then any other car costing up to $20K more.

In my eyes, the exterior styling of the RL is quite pleasing. When I see an RL parked along side a BMW, Lexus or Mercedes, I find the RL to be more beautiful then the others. It also stands up well against the Infiniti M45.

I also believe that the RL’s interior fabric and leather meets or surpasses in overall quality the higher costing BMW, Lexus or Mercedes. OK, maybe it is only in the eye of the beholder, but it is my eyes the drink in the beauty of the RL.

I did not expect my RL to provide exceptional gas mileage. After all, I knew its 300hp engine, body weight and appointments along with my driving style would dictate how far I could go on a tank of gas. However, during the time I owned it, fifteen months, I averaged 20mpg driving a mix of 70/30 city/highway roads. I do not consider this to be shabby.

If engine purr/growl, fractional speed and high RPM’s were paramount considerations in what I think a luxury car should be, I would never purchase a V6. But, these were not considerations and I liked the way my RL sounded, accelerated, rode and cruised. I also very much liked the way it handled.

I no longer have my RL (for reason not relevant to this post). Nevertheless, I believe that my former RL was everything I hoped it would be; and that is, it was a luxury sedan as good or better then its competitors in every sense of the word.

The number of its monthly sales figures or the fact it has a smaller size engine than those with a V8 does not detract in any way the pleasure I had owning my 2005 RL. It was worth every cent I paid for it.