SpicyMikey

I've been watching the SH-AWD on my MID as I drive. If I can believe the readout then a couple things surprised me.

First, I'm pleasantly surprised at how balanced the torque is for all 4 wheels. It truly is a 4 wheel drive system. I see very little bias to the front wheels.

Second, I'm un-pleasantly surprised how little emphasis it puts on the outside wheels in a curve. In fact, I notice no bias to the outside track -- as the ads depict.

I'm looking for feedback to determine if something is wrong with my SH-AWD or the advertisement just sets false high expectations.

Thanks

Chas2

In my experience, you really have to push it hard to see that happen, harder than you (or at least I) would normally on public streets. The easiest way to demo, assuming you don't mind the possibility of damaging the car if you hit a slick spot, is on a freeway cloverleaf...use a slow entry speed... Punch it and you will feel it, but it is difficult to see because of the MID position and the steering wheel position. I did it on rain slicked day...very slow entry speed...It is really rather a risky manueuver, now that I think about it... Maybe in a parking lot....

SpicyMikey

The commercial shows the RL going throw an S curve with a series of average 45's. The outside wheel is getting all the torque (in this depiction). I tried it with a 90 (at an intersection) doing about 30mph. It showed no asymetric distribution of torque. In fact it was dead even for all 4 wheels. Not even a change from front to back.

Either I have a problem or I'm overestimating the responsiveness of the system.

Anyone else have any experience? If this is how it works then that's just fine with me. I'm ok with the commercial exagerating things. I just want to determine if I have a problem.

Touge

I think you really have to drive the car hard to see it moving. There was a video I posted on here recently showing Tsuchiya from Best Motoring driving the Legend on a track. At one point you can see the bars moving all the way to the end of the display. Pretty cool.

Chas2

Yes, on the rain slicked clover leaf at about 25, then punch it and you can see the MID give you a momentary full power to the outside rear wheel. It was hard to see because of the steering wheel position, and really rather stupid when I think about how close the concrete walls were, but it does work. Try an empty parking lot first where there is room for error if you spin out.

SpicyMikey

So you're really only going to see left/right asymetric torque distribution when there's a lose of traction, etc. That actually makes more sense. Why would you want all your torque going to one wheel if all 4 are bitting. That would probably create less stability NOT more. Never really thought about it. I just accepted the impression the commercial gives without thinking it through.

If anyone has any real working knowlege of this system, please share it. I'd still love to know more. Commercials and printed consumer literature is usually a bunch of BS.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

No. I think you misunderstand how the SH-AWD works.

In order for the torque distribution to work correctly, you actually have to be applying power. If you are only making a turn, but not applying power to wheels (i.e. your foot is off the gas) the car is coasting and the motor is not applying torque to the drivetrain. However, if you are going through the corner with your foot firmly planted on the throttle, you will, without a doubt, see the torque transition to the outside rear wheel.

TampaRLX-SH

I believe the SHAWD design intent is NOT to drive the car for you. It is intended at add confidence, security and increase the limits of the vehicle, all with less drama. That said, I believe the tuning engineers did NOT want to alter or reduce the natural driving characteristics of the car (which do me just fine). But when you want to push it, it responds with amazing control and 'wow, I just did take that curve at speed!' feedback. And yes, you have to power the drive train to make it react, it will not alter general driving dynamics if i just plain don't need to.

However, in normal driving, I find the SHAWD really DOES produce a very balanced drivetrain. It may be subtle to notice, but it was designed to be seamless.

This car (and Honda generally) are not about making dramatic statements. It is VERY capable, and it can do so without the drama (in driving dynamics, style, etc)so many are very drawn to.

SpicyMikey

I had my foot on the gas. No confusion there.

So you're saying, with no uncertainty, that if I take a hard curve with my foot on the gas then I'll see torque shift to the outside rear wheel? Do I need to be accelerating or just apply gas?

I'll try it again today. Maybe there IS something wrong with my computers brains

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

You need to be applying power so slight level of acceleration is needed. Steady state throttle pressure should still trigger some shift, but not nearly as much as if you were applying additional throttle to accelerate out of a corner.

Chas2

Although, it is true if you are off the gas, or very lightly on it, going downhill, you will see one bar, right and left rear as the available torque is used to stabilize the car going down hill. Don't know, but I like to think that is the acceleration device working on the downhill.

Apply even a little gas, and you will get a lot of action on the front wheels, some on the back.

neuronbob

It's also my experience that you have to be pushing the car pretty hard, maybe 7/10?, and accelerating in a curve, to activate the rear wheel.

SpicyMikey

Well, I just got back from doing some stuff and I tried to see if I could activate this baby. It's a Saturday afternoon so traffic is pretty heavy, but, I got a wide open highway-to-highway interchange ramp at one point and opened it up. I first slowed down to about 30mph and accelerated through the curve and exited it at about 60. The steering wheel bars get in your way at times but I saw most of it. It seemed to steadily show one bar on all four wheels except for the peek of the curve where I got 2 bars on the LR wheel.

Is that what you guys experience? Again, it might be right, but it's not what I was expecting based on the commercials

TampaRLX-SH

Mike,

Here are a few links to detailed SHAWD demontrations. Perhaps these can help you determine if your RL is bhaving properly?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m52sYTKvN4Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nB9Rk...elated&search=

If I remember, you personal contact with yoru Acura delaer? Perhaps you can have a tech take you on a 'demo' drive to exhibit the SHAWD for you.

I find it pretty seamless. Only when pushing it do I feel some oversteer tendencies. I did get it to fishtail once, but the VSA was reacting and tugging the tail back in.

And yepper, the SHAWD display would be better served as a heads up display. It is totally masked in the MID when turning the wheel...WHEN IT IS SUPPOSED TO WORK!

Rob L

Weird.

I have had many times where I get 3 or so bars to the outside rear wheel. I usually get it when I am going around a bend and am accelerating. You don't have to be going mega fast or anything so not like it will do this just when you're being crazy on the road.

Chas2

No, I neglected to describe the entire display. In my scenario, the system does not send the torque to only one wheel, all wheels are getting torque, front and back, what I was saying was to get that outside rear wheel to show four or five bars, that is what I had to do. The fronts had 2 or 3 bars, but the rear outside shot up to 5 very briefly. This was under a heavy throttle situation on a right hand banked, inclined curve, wet...you could really feel the rear come around through the corner...it was almost as if someone was pushing the rear around. I know it sounds like BS, but it is amazing. Again, to activate that pattern, you are driving much more aggressively than you could normally do on public streets, at least in Fairfax County, VA.

SpicyMikey

Thanks guys for your input. That video was useful. I get the sense I am not experiencing what you guys explain. Definitely not seeing what the video shows. Maybe there is something wrong.

As TampaRL mentioned, my brother works at the Acura dealer and I have many friends there. No big deal for me to go over there and grab a demo for a test drive. I'll try and do that this week and see if it handles (and displays) the SH-AWD like mine does.

bluemule

On my RL, I've seen the torque distribution in the MID to the outside rear wheels while coasting downhill through curves.

SpicyMikey

That's even stranger Bluemule. If your not applying power to the wheels then why would the display show anything. Makes me wonder how accurate this MID display is.

For me, the wheels almost always show just one bar on all four wheels. Sometimes when I accelerate I'll see 2 bars go to the front wheels equally. However, sometimes I see two bars go to the back wheels equally under -- what seems to be -- the same circumstances. I have driven the car hard like Mario Andretti, and I've driven it soft like my wife. I've only seen asymetric L/R torque a few times and even then it was only two bars instead of one.

I even went into the system diagnostics (press MAP/MENU/CANCEL at the same time and hold for 3 seconds). All the system diagnostics show green lights. No Telematic reports or error codes. The Yaw settings on my car are CW 0.5 and CCW -0.4. What does it show in everyone elses system? That's about the only parameter that I could see making a difference for the computer when calculating torque distribution. I don't dare change anything since I don't know what these parms effect. However, it would be interesting to know what others are set too.

This week I'll go over to the dealer and grab a demo and see how it "reports" torque on a test run THEN I'll do the same exact test run with my RL and compare the difference. That's really the only way to get to the bottom line.

GoHawks

Guys, I think it's how the display in the MID is tuned. I drove a new MDX and the MID on it showed much more dramatic levels of torques distribution, and I drove it no differently than I drive my RL.

I bet the North American engineers tuned the display so that it would in a sense show a much more exaagerated torque distribution to advertise the torque vectoring. The RL may just be more conservative as to how it displays it.

bluemule

When coasting downhill through a series of curves, I don't think too much about it when I see some power being distributed to the outside rear wheel...I figure the system is distributing some power to those outside rear wheels normally because it senses that some power is needed for stability. There's been an emphasis in the RL's promotion and generally here on powering through curves, but it certainly makes sense to me that the system works whether aggressively powering or drifting through these situations.

I'm assuming that my system is functioning properly...and I think it is.

Touge

It's cool that the AYC is tunable on our cars, but I don't think any of us know how to adjust it.

From what I recall in a earlier discussion sh-awd does work when you don't apply gas, just that it doesn't do as much as when you do apply gas.

JonFo

I regularly see full torque (5bars) going to my right rear wheel on my daily commute.

I have to do a dog-leg cross of a major artery, and traffic windows are small, therefore full throttle is called for (and is more fun ).
So I first accelerate while turning left, then immediately crank over to the right (onto the continuation of the road), then immediately crank over to the left (the road immediately curves).
On the last turn (going left) I’m under full wide-open-throttle in second gear. The MID is showing five bars to right rear wheel every time.

This is hyper-aggressive driving, but I’ve been covering that set of curves for three years in my prior cars (Audi A6 and Subaru Legacy GT) doing the exact same thing. AWD is a wonderful thing.

The contrast is that as other note above, the SH-AWD does radically ‘rotate’ the vehicle when it kicks in.
My Subaru would practically be in drifting oversteer while doing that (at full boost in second), but the RL is much more graceful at handling it.
The A6, which weighed the same as the RL, was an oversteering pig on those and had to be practically manhandled. Tires would only last 10K on that car…

Bottom line, SH really works, as it makes a 4K Lbs car, feel lighter and more nimble. It really does make a difference in dry handling.

Even as much as I like the turning features of SH, in general practice, I prefer the ‘feel’ of the Subaru AWD. If feels like its truly a ‘full-time’ AWD, grabbing and sending torque to any wheel as needed. The Acura still feels like a front-drive car with AWD tacked-on.

If I could add the SH torque vectoring with over-gearing feature to a Subaru, that would make the perfect AWD car IMHO.

Bottom line, you got to push the car hard (8/10’s) to really see the SH kick in. When it does, you’ll know it.

JonFo

Oh, +1 on the making the SH display show on the screen or HUD

I really have to be careful trying to execute maneuvers and see the MID...

kirbyflorida

When you are cornering fast enough to have the outside wheel show up on the mid, you will be too busy to look at the mid, as I have experienced.

Watch this Video from WW Honda It is all you will ever need to know..
this video should be a permanant display on the discussion site.
http://world.honda.com/HDTV/news/2004-4040401a/

Godwhacker

This raises a question I wondered about. If I start to slide in a turn in my RL (say, on snow or rain slick road), should I apply power to get the SH-AWD torque working to help, or lay off power and slow down to attempt to get traction back?

Treblig

I believe it works, but when it needs too rather than when we may want it too. I have had the opportunity to see the bars move but as has been said several times, you have to push the car hard into a turn and doing that and trying to watch the display is a hard and crazy thing to do, that's why I've only done it once. I think Acura should have had a head-up display if that really expect you to see what's happening.

jftjr

Acura should get rid of the SH-AWD display. Obviously, too many people want to "see it move" and the only time it moves any appreciable amount is when you're standing on the gas in a turn.

If you're standing on the gas in a turn, you should have your eyes ON THE ROAD.

Personally, I can feel my SH-AWD kick in with the seat of my pants, because if I push it hard into a corner it feels like the car "steps in" to the turn -- it took me a while to get used to it, because it feels like oversteer is about to occur, but actually it's the SH-AWD and there's no oversteer, I'm nowhere near the car's limits when I feel it.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Apply power, gently. If the car is starting to slide too far off track, the VSA will react in conjunction with the SH-AWD to either apply the power to the outside rear wheel or to brake the appropriate wheels to bring the car back in line.

bluemule

Acknowledging posts that only powering through curves activates ShAWD and that coasting will not...

Someone will have to explain to me what I'm seeing in my MID when coasting downhill if in fact, the RL is not actually distributing power to outside rear wheels when coasting downhill through sharp curves.

I've not looked at my literature or manual in quite awhile.

BTW, OT, but if you really want to see some MID activity, stop worrying about powering through curves and kicking out the display on an outside rear wheel...stop the car on a sandy road (my 1/2 mile driveway) or perhaps a wet paved parking lot (none of those around here) and stomp on it...you'll see all kinds of MID activity and flashes of the AFS light...and somewhat of a kick in the butt.

Chas2

On a drive yesterday, I paid particularly close attention to the MID in a variety of situations. Generally, you are getting activity on all four wheels, biased to the front.

Light acceleration = 1 bar on all four wheels
Light Moderate to Moderate acceleration = 2-3 bars on front wheels, 1 bar on rear wheels
Heavy accelration straight = 4 bars front, 2 bars rear
Unable to do heavy acceleration turns.

Downhill coast, no engine braking = no bars
Downhill coast with light to moderate brakes applied = no bars
Downhill coast with some engine braking = 1 bar each rear wheel

Cloverleaf turn, coasting downhill, engine braking = 1 bar on rear outside wheel, no bars other wheels, returns to one bar each rear wheel as the turn straightens out, no bars front wheels
Cloverleaf turn, light acceleration up hill = 2 bars front wheels, 1 bar rear wheels
Cloverleaf turn, moderately heavy acceleration uphill = 3 bars front, 2 bars rear

SpicyMikey

That's pretty much was I experience. I don't see this wild stuff happening with back outside wheels. MAYBE I'll see an extra bar on the back outside tire in a hard accelerating turn.

Do you have an '07? Maybe they've changed things. Either retuned the system or toned down the display's reaction to things.

Chas2

I have an 06 that I took delivery of in December 06, one of the last on the lot.

It sounds like they have not changed things much, if at all. I was sort of hoping that they would increase the sensitivity of the RL display in 07 and beyond.

You read about a lot more SH-AWD action on the MDX, but that is a much heavier and higher center of gravity car. The RDX and MDX also omit the variable speed "acceleration device". You wonder what effect that has on things.

Frankly, I think there was a software change in the MDX/RDX increasing the MID display sensitivity to show you SH-AWD is working all the time, and that software change was not something they wanted to do for the more complex, and lower volume RL/Legend. So the RL/Legend is working on software probably 2-3 years older than the MDX/RDX. I think there is probably significant testing that has to be done to certify software changes and the incremental change in display activity is not considered an important enough reason to do it.

SpicyMikey

Yes, in the end, what the display shows is irrelevent. I just want to know it's working properly. If I knew it was working, I wouldn't even be looking at that display.

black label

I could be wrong, but I believe the only Acura to use SHAWD as part of the VSA is the 07 MDX. They have distinguished the MDX VSA system as "cooperative VSA". If I am correct the RL and RDX just use throttle modulation as well as the ABS brakes for the VSA system.

black label

Try it on a lower speed corner, when you approach the apex, get into the gas, I mean really into the gas. If you have enough steering wheel input, you'll get all 5 bars on the outer rear wheel.

You may want to go to an empty parking lot at night and play around with it.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Even if you are correct, and I will let someone research to confirm either way, the VSA would still have some level of visibility into what SH-AWD is trying to do so as to not attempt to correct SH-AWD's actions.

The VSA may not incorporate SH-AWD, but will still work in conjunction with it rather than try to work against it.

RL06tech

I realize some cofusion here. The torque transfer is dependent on 2 things: steering angle and accelerator position. If the curve is slight regardless of throttle position there wont be much transfer. If you are accelerating from a stop same thing applies. The best way to see it do its thing is accelerating through a succesion of tight and fast s curves. I drive pretty aggresively thus I see side to side transfer regularly.
One point to take home, if you get very enthusiastic playing with the system, it's not that hard to induce oversteer. If you do it gradually the the VSA will keep you in line, if the surface is loose or slippery and you lay on it agressively you can induce the SHAWD dance, the car will snap oversteer, the VSA will intervene full force causing you to snap your tail the other way where the VSA will catch you again. YOu end up going straight but your balls will pressing against your larynx. Note this only happens driving very aggresively in slippery road conditions (rain, sand, snow etc)

jftjr

That happened to me the first time I was playing around in the snow... and yeah, that's a pretty apt description of how I felt....

Thing is, though, I reacted as I'd been trained to react, and wound up fighting the VSA -- I was trying to steer into a slide while the car's trying to snap me around with the brakes -- so I wound up overcorrecting and heading straight for a barricade, which prompted another "power slide" as I tried to steer away.

RL06tech

Yep, same thing here. The correct reaction is to lay off the accelerator and let the system do its thing the problem is that it all happens very fast, however in my expirience the car hasn't completely gone out of control. SHAWD is great and does work wonders but it can't eliminate the physical laws of adhesion!