I'm not saying that Honda doesn't need a V8 (or better yet, a V10). However, it isn't practical for Honda to have a V8 for just the RL. Acura estimated that only 10% of the cars in the RL's class have V8. If we use the Lexus GS as an example, 15% of those cars sell with V8 engines. If a V8 was available for the RL, it would have sold about 107 units NATIONWIDE. That wouldn't be worth the cost to Honda or Acura. Lexus has an advantage because the LS 430, GS 430, LX 430, and SC 430 can all use the same engine. Right now, the V8 would go into one Acura vehicle, the RL. Wouldn't be worth it, to sell about 100 more cars per month, unfortunately.

When I test drove the TL with automatic transmission, the torque steer problem was just as prominent as in my CL Type S. Bear in mind that I was testing a 2004 TL. The 2006 TL has additional circuitry to mitigate the problem.

About Acura dealers requesting a cheaper RL, it shows that they are not very adept at selling expensive cars. No Acura over $40K has ever been a big seller, not the original RL, not the NSX, and not the current RL. Chances are the upcoming MDX will have a base MSRP over $40K and I fear for its success. It is hard for people who are used to selling Integras, RSX's, and (heaven forbid) non-Acuras at their dealerships to change strategies necessary to sell a more upscale car. For example, you asked a legitimate question: why buy the RL over the TL? What justifies the higher price? I don't think there are many Acura salespeople in the country who can answer that question effectively. Why? Because 1) they haven't learned the RL well enough to be able to explain it simply, 2) they never thought about the answer themselves. How many Acura salespeople can explain SH-AWD? Have many know the RL has Active Noise Cancellation and Audio Pilot? How many know the car can play MP3s off a CD? How many know what a DVD-Audio is? How many know ANY of the RL's voice commands? Instead of learning how to sell a different kind a car (one with a profit margin), the dealers want to take the easy way out and get a car that not only costs less, but has fewer features for them to have to understand or explain.

By the way, I would love to see the RL renamed Legend, but that is the last thing Acura should do now. As Acura moves away from $20K cars and towards $40K - $50K cars, they will need to build their name brand. They can't do that by emphasizing one model name over the Acura brand name. Mercedes doesn't do it for good reason, Lexus doesn't do it for good reason, Cadillac stopped doing it for good reason, and Acura should not do it, either.

I don't agree with this...a 5 series is a 5 series, whether it is a 535, 545, 550, or M5, whatever. A GS is a GS, whether it is a GS330 or GS430. An M is an M, whether it is a M35 or M45.

You can't just separate the different "trims" or "engine" configurations just because the RL has only one engine/trim offering. It's ACURA's fault that they didn't offer more trims, and if this causes poor overall RL sales, then so be it and I'll call it like it is rather than trying to sugar-coat it.

Actually, Lexus does separate the GS 300 from the GS 430 and count them as different models. Basically, if it has a different number then it is a different model, at least from Lexus' perspective. I believe BMW does something similar.

More options would allow Acura to compete with the other luxury brands. I think the RL has shown that Acura needs to invest alot before it can reep the rewards.

Lets hope the V10 going in the NSX will trickle down to all the acura products.

V10 RL - sport edition
V10 MDX - touring edition
V10 TL - ultra-sport edition (think really fast & rear-wheel drive)
--------------
V10 Honda Ridgeline - need the torque and pulling power.

By the way, if you goto honda's F1 website http://www.hondaracingf1.com/en/ you will see a V8 engine....So they can make one, I guess.

Indeed, Honda can make awesome V8 engines, and I think they are only saving face now by dodging the issue and saying only a V6 is needed. I bet a V8 or something similar will sneak its way into production in the near future, just like Honda did with the first V6 accord. One thing is for sure, when Honda does develop it, it will be a sweet and smooth engine. The Accord's V6 won praises when it finally appeared. I will be the first in line to upgrade my RL for the powerful killer RL. The problem is that, by then, BMW, etc will probably be shoehorning and prying V10s into their cars!

Other than a handful of people in the U.S., who is going to buy a Honda with a V8 engine?

Well, true, but if Honda can keep the price lower than other V8 competitors, and still retain decent mileage (maybe a smaller displacement engine?), then I think they will win some buyers over. Still, you are right that Honda may think the market does not exist for them in this case.

EXTREMELY well stated.

When comparing statitstics one compares like stats and not ones that are not directly comparable. I traded my 530 for the RL and would not have chosen any of the other variations of the 5 series other than the 530 as there is a significant difference between a 530, a 525 or 525xi or the wagon versions of each. Comparing the RL with 530 or 530xi sales is a direct comparison and the most accurate for looking at a true picture of comparitive sales in a month, at least between these two models. I doubt that anyone is really going to cross shop the RL with a 525 sedan or wagon for example.

I have a technical question for you all. Is it possible or practical to mate a V8 engine with FWD? Consider the torque steer problems that the TL has had in the past. Wouldn't an engine with even more torque make torque steer worse?

The current Impala SS has an LS4 and is FWD.

How much torque is that engine generating? Is it the equivalent to the V6 in the TL, or is it more?

Engine: 5.3L small block V8 with Displacement on Demand (DOD) technology (standard on SS 1SS)
The latest version of the GM small block V8 in SS delivers 303 horsepower and 323 lb.-ft. of torque and features new Displacement on Demand (DOD) technology. DOD gives you power when you need it by activating four cylinders during some driving conditions. When you need full power, the other four cylinders are seamlessly reactivated.

Link

I'm under the assumption that the DoD helps to mitigate excessive torque steer. Under that assumption, VCM could do likewise for a Honda V8. (unscientific assumption )

Sidenote: The 3rd gen Taurus SHO was a V8 front driver as well. But it's 235hp/230lb-ft 3.4L V8 was relatively weak in stock trim.

So, a V8 could work in a FWD Acura. I wonder how much such a car would cost and how well it would be received? If Honda's implement a V8 or V10, it will have to go into more than one model. My guess would be the RL, the MDX, and perhaps another vehicle. A V8 in a TL sounds technically feasible, but is it financially feasible?

No question it can be done but I really don't think it's financial feasible at this time. If Honda has a pre-existing V8 motor in some other application that they could tailor for use in the TL then it might make some sense. (i.e.: GM LS)

I received the new Road & Track magazine (April I think) yesterday and it has the cover article about the upcoming cars from the Japanese manufacturers. Relevant to this discussion is its projection that Honda will soon have a V8 and V10 with probably the 8 going in a Honda sport coupe (forget the name/letter designation) and the v10 in the new NSX. They have their concept photos of what each may look like and they are very similar to each other. When they eventually reach the marketplace I would think there would be more distinctive styling differences to separate them than what R&T is showing now.

They both appear to have some similar stylings of the RL (but with a considerable shot of testosterone) and may use the RL as its base including sh-awd for both. Both cars look awesome and with those powerplants and the estimated horsepower for each they should be real driver's cars.

Assuming R&T is in the ballpark with its projections, it would seem logical that the RL will receive some similar styling updates at that time including one would think either the 8 or 10 in order to be its high end performance oriented sedan.

The article also points out the details of the upcoming competition from Toyota and Mazda in particular so Honda/Acura with these upgrades will be just staying competitive and not necessarily leaping past its competitors. Sounds promising though for a possible direction for the RL in the future as the 05/06 RL looks more and more like a stepping stone for Acura and not yet the consummate sport sedan that they envision.

I always considered the RL to be an "interm" or experimental car. The RL is basically a real-world test mule for Honda's SH-AWD which will be propogated to other models, starting with the RDX this fall. Apparently, the lessons learned from the RL will also be propogated upwards into more performance-oreinted models.

Also, bear in mind that the RL does not need to sell that many units in order to be profitable, so Honda can use this car for engineering experiments.

But the torque steer would be just unimaginable. Besides, this discussion is about the RL.

But it would give Acura a true flagship sedan. And I'd probably pay $50k an RL with a V8 because it'd be a Hondariffic, ULEV/environment-loving, torque monster, racing-inspired V8 with an AWD drivetrain to support it. Your point, though, is well taken.

Yes, it does. Just makes a competent sedan more so.

Excellent point! This is a dealer-specific issue, though. I recall the purchase of my 2004 TL 2 1/2 years ago. I bought it at the time it was released. I knew more about the car than the salesman did. (Perhaps that's not a fair example, though--I'd been drooling at the pics and press releases for two months prior to its release, and the salesmen probably hadn't.) It's a shame that so may salesmen have less clue about what their car is about than the people who buy them. One disagreement in your argument: The Legends were over $40k and sold quite well IIRC.

I agree, but this brings me back to my first point in my original post. Acura needs to redefine what they mean by luxury, get the word out what that is, and since they've gone to the letter scheme to emphasize the Acura name, they need to do those things even better in order to sell more cars.

Bottom line--Acura needs to dissect the TL release, figure out why the TL is a HUGE hit, figure out how to sell the RL to the public (not just us enthusiasts), and how to get their salespeople to understand they are selling a LUXURY car in the RL rather than directing people to the TL.

Please refresh my memory. When did the Legend have a starting MSRP over $40K? I'm sure it happened, I just don't remember when.

I guess Acura dealers have had problems selling cars over $45K.

Oh and it is pretty simple why the TL is a huge it: it offers lots of gadgets and a V6 engine for a relatively low price. TL buyers (myself included) don't really care that they are getting FWD instead of RWD or fake wood instead of real. The TL is a great deal!

An Acura executive recently said that the car most often cross shopped against the TL is the Honda Accord. It should be easy for a salesperson to convince a customer to acquire a TL over its fewer-featured cousin. The challenge is selling an Acura that is cross-shopped against the BMW 5 Series or even the Lexus GS. I don't think Acura salespeople are ready for that kind of selling yet.

A V8 engine will have no shortage of applications.

Amongst Acura cars, it simply has to power the flagship sedan. The rumored coupe/convertable would also benefit from a V8. The upcoming MDX will likely have a V6, but eventually a V8 in this segment will become quite usefull.

Speaking of trucks, a V8 is necessary for Honda as well. The Ridgeline is not going to survive on V6 engines forever. In the truck segment, V8 engines are also a must. Presumably, the Pilot could also benefit years down the road.

In short, the higher end luxury cars and a variety of trucks can all benefit from V8 engines. Honda said themselves, that there isn't really that much incentive to hybrid powertrains, so I don't see that road as the one most traveled.

Again, I disagree with this, simply because people CAN'T cross shop an RL with a 525 sedan or wagon because a weaker v6 or wagon RL doesn't EXIST. It is simply UNREALISTIC to consider the stats this way for general use. If it's what you're shopping, then it works only FOR YOU.


Just because someone CAN'T cross shop doesn't mean they wouldn't have if a RL wagon did exist.

If your stats only compare DIRECTLY comparable models, then why not compare how many black RL's are sold vs. how many black 535i's? Or furthermore, they aren't comparable at all, since one's made in Japan and one's made in Germany, you can only compare Japanese cars to Japanese cars. WHERE DO YOU DRAW THE LINE?

The conventional line is drawn at the model series (5-series, A6-series, M-series, GS-series, RL-series...but the RL is a series of ONE). Otherwise there would be too many categories to handle. For example, how many different accords are there? DX-i4, LX-i4, EX-i4, LX-v6, EX-v6, coupe i4, coupe v6, coupe i4 manual, coupe v6 manual, LX-i4 w/ navi, EX-i4 w/ navi, etc. etc. etc. this is just too many to compare directly with its closest competitor, so convention is just compare ACCORDS vs. CAMRIES. If someone's in the market for 4-cylinder Accords or Camries, then that's what they will PERSONALLY compare. But for sales stats, it's just unrealistic.

Using mrdeeno's logic, I think Acura should combine the TSX and the TL into the T-class so they can finally outsell the BMW 3 Series.

Shit, in that case Acura should just combine every car made on the same platform and call it a 3-series competitor.

The point is the TSX and TL are in separate series...unless Acura decides to actually make a "T-class", in which case that would be true, you could then compare the "T-class" versus the 3-series.

Only problem is the TSX and TL are too far removed from each other for this to realistically happen, while every 3-series is more similar and just different configurations of the same car.

They realistically could have done this with the last generation TL/CL. SInce those cars were so close to each other, they could've called the CL a TL coupe. But Acura being Acura, they called the CL a CL instead. THey even go as far as telling people cars equipped with Navi are a separate trim line.

I agree. The second-generation CL really should have been called the TL coupe. The problem is that they already had a coupe called CL, so they wanted to keep the name going. That was a bad move on Acura's part. Imagine if, not only did they call it the TL coupe, but they kept it for the third generation? A 2006 TL coupe would have been interesting.

[JOCULARITY]I'm not certain that a car called the TLC would be well received by car enthusiasts.[/JOCULARITY]

they CAN'T use "TLC"...it's already used for Acura's "total luxury care" thing.

I wonder why T-boz, Lefteye, and Chili didn't sue them?

Didn't one of them die in a car crash?

In that case, it conflicts with Toyota not Acura. (read: tC )

The Caddilac DTS/Deville is FWD with a V8.
It's all about managing the torque steer, whether through electronics, or engineering (equal length half shafts, LSD).

I guess it also depends on the customers. I don't see Cadillac customers pushing their DTS's hard enough to encounter torque steer.

with regard to the individual DTS buyer, although Limo DTS drivers routinely tear it up around NYC.

I was at the dealer in Nashville last week and only saw 3 RLs on the lot. One was in the showroom and another was a demo with tech package that said 'Not for Sale'. There were lots of TLs.

Assuming that the bad press persists for the next few years, you should be able to buy your vehicle at less than previously estimated residual value at lease end.

?

Another possibility is people that bought a TL 5 years ago now have enough to get a RL, but they know better after dealing with all the TL problems (and Acura's horrible service).

I know what you mean. I have owned only Honda/Acrua products since I started working for Honda in 1991. Unfortunately, as hard as I tried, we just purchased a non-Honda product.

We looked at the RL, but as noted in this forum, the styling is bland and just doesn't "do it for me". We purchased a BMW 650i convertible, which isn't in the same category as the RL, but is very fun to drive.

The new Annual Auto issue from Consumer Reports (April '06) has an interesting chart on page 17 - it shows each automakers BEST and WORST realiable vehicles.

Best Acura - MDX
Worst Acura - RL

Yep. But, the RL is still a "recommended" vehicle...not the highest check rated, but recommended. These comparisons will likely change once the '06 and later models weigh in.