neuronbob

I agree with the drivetrain observation, and that most car buyers don't care as long as it gets them from A to B. As for myself, I don't think I'll be going back to FWD again after seeing the alternative. SH-AWD is....you know what I'm going to say. RWD is even better for handling, and with decent snows one can make it through a typical harsh Cleveland winter.

I never even considered the ES, but it is a fit for those who require that cushiony Lexus ride. Nothing wrong with it, I'm just not ready for it yet.

larrynimmo

mike, i do envy you in the LS "cushy" ride. I wish I could give up a little world class performance for a little more world class comfort...call me weird.

tsx2go

both cars are nice, is very hard to pick one...hmm

Chuck091279

I'd say if anything, the ES is more in line with the TL. I think the GS is a good comparison for the RL, as is the M class with Infiniti. All these cars are great - can't go wrong with em.

AsianTL

I agree.

jhr3uva90

By the time you give the Lexus ES optional features to match the RL, doesn't it end up costing about the same as the RL? If that is the case, why not get the RL and not be encumbered by torque steer AND have superior speech recognition?

Chuck091279

Agreed. I think you also have to keep resale in mind. The market is flooded with ES', GS' and even M's by this point. I think LS' and RL's are still harder to find.

Mike_TX

In the original spirit of this thread, here are a couple of other (negative) observations on the LS460 as the miles roll up:

Controls/Displays

- To even see what station or band (AM, FM, Sat, CD/DVD, Aux) I'm on, I have to press an "Audio" button. Ditto for accessing radio presets. None of this is viewable on "normal" screens or displays. The RL has been criticized for having too many buttons, etc., but I find it a minor inconvenience to have to do this.

- The LS has a cruise control light on the IP to show it's turned on, but nothing to tell you it's set. That doesn't seem like a biggie to many of you, but since I use the cruise all the time, it's good to be able glance down and know whether it's already set or whether I've canceled it by using the brake or cancel button. I often lose track, and if I just punch the "Resume" and it's already set, it just adds another mph to my set speed. A few of those and I'm going too fast!


Nav

- Zoom is controlled by pressing a "+" or "-" minus button on-screen, and while moving, Lexus thinks it's safest to allow me only one zoom level at a time. When stopped, I can press and hold this button and it will continuously zoom in or out. I miss the controller knob that let me whip in or out as fast as I could turn the knob.

- The RL let me identify things and places I saw on-screen, like lakes and parks and airports, and so on, by just moving the cursor to the place. Being the curious type, I liked scouting out things like that while traveling, but the LS doesn't do that. If I touch a spot on the map it merely displays the city it's in, or maybe the name of a road that runs through it.

I'll be able to bypass the first issue when I get the hack installed, but not the second one. I guess my wife will have to keep the atlas open when we travel, so we can know what's around us.


There are a lot of positives about the LS, but there's no point in going through those now. More than anything, the car is a car first, so the frills aren't the main things to worry about. And as a car, I feel the LS does a pretty darn good job. But it's also good for you guys to know what your RL's do better than other cars.

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GoHawks

These must all be issues specific to the Toyota DNA, as I have the same issues and observations in my Land Cruiser.

The radio stations are only visible when changing stations. There is an audio button that changes the screen display to show the presets and the current station, but after a certain amount of time it will revert back to the NAV screen.

I'll have to check, but there might be a set up option where you can change it so it doesn't flip back.

I have the same issues with the cruise control. The light turns on when you turn the main power button on, but it doesn't tell you whether the CC is active.

The only feature that I do like is that the Toyota NAV offers a "Quickest" route.

We all know of routes where the most direct route isn't always the quickest.

kirbyflorida

Give yourself enough braking distance, I just saw in the back of Road & Track the LS takes 143 feet to stop from 60 mpg, one of the longest for a car.

Mike_TX

Hmmm ... Motor Trend did it in 120 ft. Maybe R&T got one with over-used brakes, or a hybrid.

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CL6

I don't know about the LS but we had a 2007 IS up on the rack and that thing looks like a junky Corolla underneath. Do you know that there are bolts sticking out almost 2" below the bottom of the car? The mufflers hang down low, just cheap looking stuff and this is on a car that carries an MSRP of almost 40k! And the liner along the top of the trunk is held in place with some plastic snap rings and double-sided Velcro! I can just see that lasting for 50,000 miles. Really there is no attention to detail once your scratch the surface. I don't know if the LS is this poorly made but even my 03 CL puts that IS to shame in quality of construction. Not to mention the Nav system asking you to say a command every time you hit the 'talk' button. God that would get old quickly.

Mike_TX

Yep, they're pretty crappy cars.

Oh, and you can turn off that "say a command" thing ... it's just for beginners.

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CL6

Good to know about the Nav.

If you put an IS up on a lift and check out the bottom of the car it's pretty amazing how cheap that model really looked. I've seen my CL, and RL, and a Mercedes C Class up on a lift and the differences are like night and day. Another thing was the headrest posts are not very long and are hollow... not long and solid to absorb more energy. It's like that model was engineered to within 0.001% of what it had to be to pass muster and nothing more.

Unless you've seen the car like that I don't think you know what I'm talking about.

kirbyflorida

I saw your number for MT but also saw this one from MT. Give yourself extra room to be safe.

Motor Trend Magazine:
4.6 L, V-8, 8 speed Automatic

0-60 5.70 sec.
1/4 Mile 14.00 sec.
60-0 Braking 135.00 ft.
Issue Jan-07
Skidpad 0.81 g.
Slalom 60.10 m

Chuck091279

And I've heard they are a pretty rough ride, not really smooth. Someting to do with the suspension being tuned a little "too" sporty for daily driving. This is why I love cars like the RL and LS. They both drive sooooo smooth, you don't want to get out of the car.

Mike_TX

Don't know about that, Chuck - my RL rode very nicely, but it couldn't handle sharp bumps or pavement irregularities very well. It would deliver a solid thunk when it hit those things. Also, on what I call "jiggly" roads, there was a lot of little up and down motions in the RL. I could look at my passenger, or the coffee in my cup, or whatever, and see it all jiggling up and down as I drove along.

On these same roads, there is virtually no jiggle in the LS. And while the sharp bumps are still bumps, they aren't transmitted to the occupants like in the RL. In fact, you HEAR them more than feel them.

My RL rode tons better than my TL, and my LS rides about as much better as the RL (if that makes sense). On a scale of 1-10, with 10 being an ideal ride, I'd give the TL a 5, the RL a 7 and the LS an 8.5.

I have heard from other LS owners that the '07/'08 LS suspension has been firmed up from the previous generation, and that may well be the case, but it sure isn't rough.

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Chuck091279

I'd tend to agree with you Mike. I'm not discounting that the LS is perhaps a smoother ride, but when compared to the IS, it's like why even bother comparing the ride of the two cars. Also, my RL has the PAX tires, and they do deliver a smoother ride. Though, that could also be the suspension that is tuned differently.

tonyc

re: point #1 my S2000's trunk liners are also held in by plastic snap rings and velcro... darn sturdy even after 55K mi of running extremely stiff springs.

point #2, the interior design/feel of the is3 is EONS above the '03 CL (as it should)... not to mention that motor...

i find it odd majority of the posts above (w/ exception of neuronbob/larrynimmo) ignore the dynamics of the car. who gives a crap about a light for the cruise? and all the nuances of each SatNav? goodness. just one more circuit to break in 100K mi. (thank goodness for the board's "ignore" list)...

Mike_TX

Lord, yes, I wouldn't even speak of the IS ad the LS in the same breath. The horrific ride quality of the IS is why I sold mine after only 3 months.

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Mike_TX

Well, tony, the dynamics of a car fall into two categories: subjective (which is of little interest to the folks here, since they couldn't care less what I think), and objective (which is demonstrated by skidpad tests, slalom runs, braking distances, 1/4 mile and 0-60 times, etc., etc., which everyone has access to in the car mags and online sources).

That being the case, I've tried to discuss the little everyday things that affect the driving experience of most of us. Things like how hard it is to reach something, or how well something works, mean something to most of us. If you, on the other hand, care only about how many G's you can pull before the tread separates from your tire carcass, then this isn't a thread for you.

In which case, you can - as my Canadian friends say - bugger off.

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CL6

True enough but S2000s don't carry prices up to 50k or more! Think I noticed about the LS (I'm not sure how far it extends to the other cars in their line-up) was that Toyota really cut a lot of corners when they designed that car and it shows. Just a lot of little things.

I would be curious to know if the ES or GS are so, uh, engineered.

Mike_TX

Not to add fuel to the fire, but how are "good" cars' trunk liners held in place? I seem to recall the liners on my RL and most other cars I've owned were held in place the same way.

The plastic "clips" I can see are tough push-clips, and then there are others that are screwed down and serve dual-purpose as grocery bag holders and anchors for trunk nets (two of which came with the car as standard equipment, BTW). As far as I can tell, my trunk liner is held in place pretty solidly, and certainly isn't flopping around or anything. By comparison with some of the liners I've seen in other cars, this one is pretty tough!

How else would you suggest the liner should be secured?

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CL6

Maybe I'm using the wrong term... When you open the trunk and look at the lining of that open trunk... that's what I mean... not a trunk tray or something.

Well in the 08 MB C Class, for example, the entire trunk molding has a lip on it into which the liner goes and then there are plastic screws that go thru the liner and the lip.

This IS250 had only about 4,000 miles on it and when I opened the trunk the liner was pulling away from the trunk enough so I could see double-sided velco tape applied at the factory!

Just an example but I looked at a 2005 Lexus SC430 today. If you open the hood up and look at how it is secured there is only one point that holds the hood to the car and the hinges are kind of flimsy. Look at a BMW or a MB and you will see several secure points and double hinges that are more secure.

Mike_TX

No, I understood - we're both talking about the liner that goes in the trunk opening and keeps you from looking at bare metal.

Anyway, I wouldn't expect most cars to be engineered (or, more accurately, over-engineered) like the S-class, but I'm completely happy with the way my trunk liner is secured. I personally have never had any trouble with a trunk liner in any car that I can recall. But if that's what constitutes quality for you, that's cool.

I seem to recall that you were constantly critical of Acura, its policies and its products when you were there, so I'm glad you've finally landed with a brand you can respect.

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CL6

Hey thanks. I respected Acura as far as the quality of their products and their design... it was more the size of the line-up and advertising that I had issues with... that they didn't have a 'plan b.'

I honestly haven't checked out an LS although I hear they are very nice. I see Lexus products infrequently. For me it comes down to what the value of a thing is. For a car that stickered at 40k I expected more than double sided velcro tape is all.

Over-engineering is not always good and if the fundamentals don't work right who cares how long the door seals last, right?

But one interesting thing I learned is why MB wraps their rubber door seals in cloth... to prevent it from squeaking as it rubs against other door seals. The IS had some 'rubber-on-rubber' action. I remember the RL's triple aircraft quality door seals.

Anyway you have yourself a fine machine.

CL6

I'm sure the veggie thing is cool and all but it'll only work out for people until/if it goes mainstream then the free ride will be over. Still, it makes sense to use oil that has already had energy expended getting it to the form/location where you stick it in your car.

What kind of emissions are we talking about with it vs. diesel or gas?

pimpin-tl

<Shakes Head> Mike does it again.

You can't seem to keep any of your nice cars longer than a year.