NavyDoc333

In a recent post I mentioned I was driving an RDX as a loaner while my car was being serviced. Well... as it turns out, my RL has about 15k on it...and it's buring about 1qt of oil per 5k miles. I brought it in... it has 30% oil life per the onboard computer... and the dealer confirmed it was 1.2qts low. I asked him now what? And the Service manager told me they're "Turning it over to the engineers and I should expect a call next week". Not sure what that means. I'm picking it up tomorrow...and will cont to drive it till they call.

Anyone have any idea why a car would be buring oil like that? It's not leaking any... there are no spots in the garage...etc. Anyone else had a problem with 'oil consumption'?

Thanks

RL06tech

SOmething is not right I haven't had a honda ever consume hardly any oil at all. Are you having any blue smoke? Also check your radiator. Another place to look is the spark plugs if any of the come up soiled with oil you have a bad piston ring. If none of those are present I guess your car just happens to eat some oil.

Mike_TX

Just checked my oil after a 2800-mile, often high-speed road trip, and it's full to the brim. Oil life is at 20%.

Sounds like your oil is being burned, which usually means rings or valves (more often the valve seals). There is sometimes a problem with porous castings, but you usually find oil somewhere when that much leaks out.

None of us likes to have our engine cracked open, but rings and valves are not rocket technology jobs, and if they need to do it, I'd just tell them to give me an RL loaner and have at it.

.
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NavyDoc333

Thanks guys.. you're making me feel better.
My RL has always felt a little 'rough' during acceleration... I wonder if that's the reason... it will be interesting to see if I can tell a difference if they figure it out.

SpicyMikey

1/2 quarts after 70% oil usage? What's that, a couple months? That's a lot of oil. If it's not on your garage floor then it must be going out your tailpipe. I'm no ace mechanic but it sounds like you need a ring job. Hard to believe with 15k but I suppose one of your rings could have been defective. Let's hope it's not the cylinders.

Rough acceleration could be an indication that one of your plugs is gunked up and not firing right. Another indication of a bad ring. The suggestion to check your plugs was a good one. With todays cars, you'd think that sort of thing would throw a trouble code. This can't be that hard of a problem to solve. Definitely push them on this one. Let us know what happens Doc.

kirbyflorida

Probably not normal.

My s2000 would use oil if the revs were kept in Vtech a lot, all s2000's did this. That was normal for that car.
I bet Honda does something with your engine, let us know.

gavine

I pumped gas in the 80's and we were required to ask to check the oil on every car. Honda, Toyota and Nissan rarely, if ever, needed oil. Fords and Chyslers were a quart low quite often.

I had a Mercedes Diesel one time that was 4 quarts low. I think the engine held 10 quarts so I guess it's not as bad as it sounds. Turns-out, the owner was the goalie for the Philadelphia Flyers (Pelle Lindbergh).

NavyDoc333

Thanks for the recommendations! Checking out the spark plugs was a great idea... until I in there. What a nightmare. Because of the horizantal engine mount...the 3 in the back are a nightmare to get to. The three in the front are easy, but I didn't have a socket that would reach down the narrow tube to get them out. I put the cover back on...and decided to leave it to the experts. We'll see what they said.

Chas2

The ignition is pretty cool compared to old coil and rotor systems of yesteryear, huh?

NavyDoc333

Ok... I called the Service Dept yesterday because I hadn't heard from them. I talked to a different service manager (they seem to have 3 there)... and he didn't understand why they said, "We've turned it over to the engineers and will get back to you".

When I brought it in, they topped the oil back off with 1.2 qts (after about 5000 mi's) . He said that I need to drive it for the remaining 30% oil life...for warranty purposes. And that when I brought it back, they would probably have to do a 'Ring Job' or 'Replace the head assembly'. He did try the company line of, "Acura does say that it's within normal operating margins to burn 1 qt betwen oil changes". I hate when they say that because they know and I know that the RL should NOT be burning oil like that. Anyway... I quickly shut that argument down by saying, "Well... you documented on the service bill 1.2 quarts in less than 1 service interval... so there's something wrong, now lets fix it before it ruins my engine"

So I've got 20% more to go...and I'll bring it back and let you know what they decide to do.

kirbyflorida

I believe they can do a leak down test to tell if the rings are bad.

neuronbob

The question is, shouldn't they be doing that now, rather than making him drive possibly another 1-2k miles?

What if there's a major problem before then? Will it be covered under warranty since the Doc drove with a known problem, even though it was the dealer giving him the instructions to keep driving? Doesn't sound right to me.

SpicyMikey

I agree. It's good to see them saying the right things now and admitting he has an engine problem. But, what's this BS about waiting for the rest of the Oil life? What's that got to do with anything? Get it in there now and crack open that engine.

Don Melcher

Yep - and that would be the first thing I would do in trying to find the problem (of course the problem may present itself beofre that as you remove the plugs).

I would bet either a ring didn't get seated properly or is cracked, or there is a bad valve guide. I'd put the most money on the rings.

SpicyMikey

Seems like a lot of oil being burned for it to be coming from the valves. Hope it's nothing more then rings.

Doc: How's the engine temperature? Does it seem to run hot? Did you check for contaminated or low water levels in the reservoir?

Don Melcher

That is why I would put the most money on the rings, though it could be more then one valve guide.

dwest1023

Normally when the value guide or guides are bad, the oil leaks down at night and when you start in the morning, the car smokes. Sounds to me to be rings.
I hope you can that straighten out with out too much hassle. That is is a bummer on a car like an RL.

kirbyflorida

This kind of stuff can happen on any car, no matter how good they are, and Honda is one of the best.
We need to stay on top of this just to know.
Keep talking with the service rep and have them get going.

NavyDoc333

Nope...seems to run at temp. The only thing I could possibly say about the engine is that I feel a slight 'roughness' in between high RPM shifts..usually between 1st and 2nd gears...or 2nd and 3rd.

NavyDoc333

My next question for you guys who seem to know a whole HELL of a lot more about this than me is... Could any of these issues... 'rings', 'valves'... etc... caused any other damage? Or does replacing them fix the problem without any long term issues?

Don Melcher

The answer to that is a big maybe. At minimum, I think I would take an oil sample and have it analysed. That may determine if there is excessive metals in the oil (like ground up pieces of rings - though they USUALLY stay in the piston grove). There may not be enough damage or metal though for it to show up - that is usually for bearing wear. But if it did determine damage, it would be ammunition on your side for engine replacement/rebuild. I think you need to do it at about the point the oil is due to be changed. We used to do that on light aircraft engines where the "normal" overhaul frequency is 1000 hours. It could be safely delayed until 1200 hours or more without problem. If it is rings, there is no way to determine that there is no damege for sure without completly tearing down the whole engine and inspecting all the bearing surfaces on the crank and cam for damage from foreign metals. They won't be too far from that point anyway if it turns out they have to replace rings - in fact, at minimum, I would insit on it, or them extending the warranty on the engine for a sustiantial amount of time. It may just be easier (though I am sure they will push back) to replace the engine.

kirbyflorida

Depending what the issue is, you could ask them for a longer warranty on the engine.
The roughness you talk about, might be a Vtec issue and that can use high oil consumption like in the S2000, which in that car is normal. Short answer for a longer discussion.

dwest1023

I am aware it can happened to any car, but what I meant, the RL is honda's flagship and it seems honda was concerned with every detail of this car. I know of two cases of this issue on the TSX side. One person went through a real hassle, having had the engine rebuilt and the car still burned oil. Honda finally put a new engine in the car and that correctedf the problem. I hope our friend does not have to go through all of that.

dwest1023

I would say no. The problem you are having is oil entering the combustion chambers, and then its being burned. This is probably why your engine runs a bit rough. Once this issue is corrected you engine will run smooth as it should.

lland

Is it possible that it wasn't completely filled at the last oil change? By filling it and aksing you to drive for the remainder of the service interval, perhaps they was to see if it is really burning (or losing) oil.

LL

NavyDoc333

Actually... the whole history is... at 5000mi I randomly checked my oil...and the dipstick was 'dry'. No engine light had come on. I drained it and changed my own oil... I figure I was about 1 1/2qts low. By the next oil change due... it was 'almost dry again'...so I added 1 qt and brought it to the dealer. They said, We need to do the next oil change, and then monitor it's consumption. I let them change the oil... it was actually a bit 'overfull' when I picked it up...and then a couple weeks ago, the oil was at the bottom of the dipstick again... so I brought it in, and that's when they added 1.2 qt's and said keep driving it till the next oil change due (about 2,500 mi's left)

Unfortunately, they won't take my word for it ..that it has been burning oil the whole time. Hard to believe someone would make that up... who wants their expensive new luxury car to have engine trouble?...but they don't seem to believe it.

lausy

I haven't tried taking these plugs off, but have done it in my MDX which I imagine should be about the same. The trick is to have two 3" extension instead of using a 6" extension. The 6" is too long to manuever around back there. You start by putting the plug socket, then put on the first 3" extension, drop it in some more and then put on the 2nd 3" extension and rachet.

Miamicarfan

NavyDoc333:

How did you drive your car when you first bought it? Did you do mostly city driving or did you take it on the highway at steady speeds?

NavyDoc333

Mostly 'city driving'.... nothing fancy. I don't dip into the VTEC very often... Unless the theme song to "Smokey and the Bandit" come on the radio...which here in TN is more often than you may think!

I have wondered about 1 thing... I know they say to break your engine in slowly, but my car was a dealer trade from several hundred miles away. I wonder if the person who drove it from the other dealer, didn't race the thing down...and not allow for proper 'break in'? Something I'll never know...but it may explain it.

For another update, I've used another 10% on my oil life...and the dipstick is now almost down about 1/8 inch from the full line where it was at.

Got 20% more to go...and I'll be bringing it back in....more to follow

Miamicarfan

NavyDoc333:

The reason why I ask is that is seems that proper break-in is very important in avoiding oil consumption problems in the future.


The following is an excellent article about the proper break in procedure posted on the TSX forum. It is the best I have ever read on the subject.

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...ghlight=engine

I followed this recommentation with my TSX. It has 35000 miles. I recently went 7500 miles between oil changes. The car did not burn a drop.

There have been 2 members of the TSX board that on the other hand drove extended distances on the highway right after getting their new TSXs. Extended highway driving at a steady speed. They both developed excessive engine oil burn with their cars. Coincidence? I dont think so.

Hope this helps.

NavyDoc333

I've heard that before...about not driving at susstained speeds for prolonged periods of time during a break in period. (same went for our boat)
Do you know why that is?
It may explain it in the TSX link you provided ... I'm going to go read it now.
Thanks.

NavyDoc333

Latest Update.

Got a call from my local service manager today. Since they filled it with 1.2qts it's burned through another 1/4qt. Which makes it an even 1.5qts between oil changes. He says he contacted the "tech group" and the answer he got back was, "That's normal". They're refusing to do any further evaluation. I explained to him that I've talked to other RL owners, and no one else is experiencing oil consumption. He agrees with me that 'somethings wrong' but he says his hands are tied on 'warranty work' if he doesn't have Acura's approval to do the work. He gave me an 800 number to call that's Acura's Customer Relations. He said that I'd have to file a complaint, and he hopes that they'd change their mind and agree to let them figure this out. They took my information down, and promised to get back to me in 1-2 days. My service manager couldn't believe the problems they were giving him about this. He says they're usually great about things like this, and he's seen people get new transmissions OUT of warranty with up to 200K on them. I find it hard to believe that Acura feels competetive enough in the Sport/Lux market to jerk around their RL owners like this.
So, I'll wait my 1-2 days....and see what they say. But I'm pissed at Acura's handling of this ...to say the least. I explained that I don't care if they open it up and look inside and find out that NOTHING really is wrong... and close it back up. But they won't even look.

I HATE to bring Lexus back into this...but these are service issues I never had to deal with when I owned a Lexus. I'm not complaining that it's using oil.... it's a car and crap goes wrong wtih cars... but I want it fixed....and "That's Normal" just doesn't cut it. What happened to the customer is always right? No less... the customer that just spent 43K on your poorly selling RL... that has to crack his hood and pour a qt of oil into the engine between oil changes. Screw them. AcuraZine is great... but Acura blows.

SpicyMikey

That's ridiculous. I'm pissed and it's not even my car.

First thing you need to do is gather evidence to prove to yourself that they are incorrect aboutt their conclusions. I mean hard third party evidence, not opinion. With that in hand, open a case with Client Services. if they shut you down, file a lemon law case and take it to arbitration. File the lemon law case and demand they purchase the car back from you or replace the engine.

NavyDoc333

Where would you recommend I get the second opinion from? Independent garage? Honda Dealer? I don't trust another Acura Dealer to argue with their conclusions.

Also...I've thought about the Lemon Law ... I've always heard that they have to have tried and failed to 'fix' the issue 3 times before the lemon law applies... what do you do if they won't even acknowledge that there's a problem? No less try and fail to fix it? And if I do...where and how do I go about filing one of those? Do I need to get a lawyer?
Thanks in advance...sorry about all the questions, but this is all new to me.

neuronbob

I have to agree with Mikey.

What is up with Acura? This level of service sucks.

I wouldn't blame the Doc if he voted with his feet and moved back to Lexus.

SpicyMikey

Let's back up and outline a plan you should follow;

1) They are pushing back on your request. Now you need to push back yourself. Open a case with Acura Client Services and file the complaint. Let that process work itself through. It should only take a week or so to have them draw a conclusion. Assuming corporate client services agrees with the Acura Tech line and says this is reasonable then quietly let it end there. Don't bother getting loud or threatening anyone. It would not help.

2) At that point begin your efforts for a Lemon Law filing. You have to do it within the first 2 years of purchase. You seem to be inside that window still. First, gather the evidence to prove you are right. Afterall, before you waste the time, be certain you are standing on firm ground. Shouldn't be that hard to prove that 1.5 quarts per month is excessive oil consumption. You shoudn't need to bring it to another mechanic. Look for written documentation on the subject.

3) If you can't prove your right then dump the car. Sorry, you loose. It sucks but that's life

4) If you have good evidence to substantiate your claim then make an appt to bring it back to the dealer two more times for the same problem. Doesn't matter if they won't fix it. Just bring it back, cite the literature evidence, and let them formally declare "no problem found" two more times. Keep all work orders.

5) Now take out your lemon law book (received when you purchased the car) and call the number in the book for guidance in filing the complaint. It's very simple and the manufacturer has 10 days to respond and/or make one last attempt to repair the car.

5) If they don't respond or repair the car it goes to arbitration and a third party agent (usually a BBB employee) will hear the argument and make a rulling. They usually give the benefit of the doubt to the consumer. Your remedy in that process is for Acura to purchase the car back for the FULL price purchased (incuding taxes, TTL, etc.) minus the usage of the vehicle. DO NOT arbitrate for anything less. Once you're in front of the arbitrator you can always agree to less (e.g. fix the engine), but you can't arbitrate for more then you declared on the original complaint.

The whole process will take about a month or two. But, in the end you'll probably get the car bought back from you. Acura will do whatever makes more financial sense for them. I'd run the numbers and determine if it financially makes more sense then trading in a one year old car. You'll get killed on the depreciation at this point. The Lemon Law will calculate the value based on a predicted life expectancy of 120,000 miles. Therefore, if your car had 12,000 miles on it you would get a check for 90%. You'd never get that much on a trade in. By the way, that 90% would be based on the Out-the-door price including everything including any dealer installed options.

Hope that helps. PM me if you want to talk about it further offline. I'll give you my email and/or phone number.

NavyDoc333

Thanks Spicy! That's all good info...and it coincides with what I've been reading on the TN Lemon Law web page. Luckily my service manager agrees with me, so he shouldn't roll his eyes too much when I keep bringing it back saying I want him to document the problem.

The only bad thing I've seen so far is that TN state law says 'within 1yr of purchase or expiration of the warranty....whichever comes FIRST. Since my car is over 1yr old, I may be screwed anyway. Which means that I have them document, NO PROBLEM FOUND...so I can dump the car...and take my depreciation. I'm already leaning down that path... Acura's just left a bad taste in my mouth after this.

Thanks again... seriously, that was great. Sorry you're so familiar with the process...makes me think you've had to deal with it before... or you're a lawyer! (Don't know which is worse...

SpicyMikey

It's true that Lemon Laws are state run. Each state is different. However, a quick Google on TN seemed to show that your state is even BETTER then mine. In Florida it's 24 months, period. Your law stated the following;

You can file a law suit at anytime within one year from the date of original delivery of your car or within six months from the expiration of your expressed warranty, whichever is later. Extended warranties are not considered. You should consult an attorney well before the expiration of your time limit to be sure of preserving your legal rights.

Go for it! Call the telephone number in the lemon law book. Most of these people are consumer advocates, etc. They will be more then happy to help you understand the process.

By the way, no I'm not a lawyer. Just someone who likes to read a lot. I'm wierd.

dwest1023

Sorry of here of your oil problem DOC. That really sucks, especially the way Acura is handling it. There was a TSX with the same problem as yours I believe, and a ring job was performed. The person still had oil burning, and then Acura, replace the eingine(short block) and that solved the problem. You might want to do a search for this on Acurazine. This might help with your situation. I am very sure this situation is very rare for an RL as the big 6 does not work hard at all. Noting how anal I am, I would be really really pissed, and I think you are handling it very well.

check this thread:

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...hlight=burning

chhimp

This would piss me off. Drive until the engine seize and have them replace the engine. Is it still under warranty? Free towing still? Get a lawyer.