No V8 in the foreseeable future...
09-27-2007, 01:25 PM
#1
2012 Cadillac CTS-V Coupe
Thread Starter
No V8 in the foreseeable future...
Instead there will be a V10. Much to my surprise.
I just read a small article on Car and Driver's website regarding the NSX. For some reason I can't get a link to the article. You'll have to go to the website, but here is the article.
Acura Supercar Concept, Part 2 - Auto Shows
Looks like we’re getting another design direction, and not a production version, of the much-anticipated next-gen Acura NSX supercar in Tokyo.
BY ALISA PRIDDLE, PHOTOGRAPHY BY KGP PHOTOGRAPHY AND THE MANUFACTURER September 2007
When it comes to Acura, the most adored nameplate is the NSX supercar (deceased in 2005), and it is here the traditionally conservative parent company, Honda, is proving to be quite the tease.
We salivated at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit last January with the unveiling of the Acura Advanced Sports Car concept (ASCC), which we all assumed was the precursor to the next-gen NSX. With a powerful 5.0-liter V-10 and Acura’s Super Handling All-Wheel Drive, the ASCC no doubt foreshadows a sports car of the highest level, despite crowing from purists that all-wheel drive and an apparent front-engine layout are sacrilege in a car called NSX.
But, in the months that followed, the rumor mill was full of stories about how the carmaker was not as enamored with the concept as we were and more work was needed. That must be the case, because a senior Honda exec recently told Ward’s Automotive Reports that a second supercar concept will be the headliner for Acura at the Tokyo auto show in October—and not a production NSX as promised.
The ever-cautious Honda apparently needs the public to go ga-ga before it can commit. So, we’ll see a more refined “design direction” in Tokyo. It’s now looking like closer to 2010 before the NSX is the headliner for the brand.
And there are further ramifications. The 2009 NSX was to be the cornerstone of the rollout of the Acura brand in Japan, so it appears that plan also is delayed a couple years from the original 2008 target.
Acura is rolling out its 2008 lineup amid record sales of the MDX SUV, and strong demand for the smaller, turbocharged RDX. But August sales in the U.S. were down 10 percent overall and year-to-date the luxury brand is off by more than eight percent.
Acura execs say their goal for this year is to hold the line on sales, during what they describe as a product lull. But, they promise to keep us scribes hopping with product news in the next two years (we can spell NSX).
And we expect to see SH-AWD, which is proving popular, expand further into the lineup. Officials won’t say if existing vehicles must wait for their scheduled redesign to add the feature that increasingly is becoming a point-of-entry for luxury models.
For now, the 2008 lineup is marked by making Bluetooth wireless connectivity a standard feature across the portfolio.
But we expect big transmission news in the not-so-distant future. One major chink in Honda’s armor is the lack of a six-speed automatic transmission. Engineers say one is in the works, and it appears it could make its debut in an Acura. The TL is due for an upgrade in 2009, and a six-speed automatic would go so nicely with a new 3.5-liter V-6.
As for a V-8 in an Acura sedan anytime soon, the company still seems wed to the idea of skipping this step, and going from its current V-6s to a V-10 in the NSX, with no displacement stops in between—no matter how little sense this seems to make.
I just read a small article on Car and Driver's website regarding the NSX. For some reason I can't get a link to the article. You'll have to go to the website, but here is the article.
Acura Supercar Concept, Part 2 - Auto Shows
Looks like we’re getting another design direction, and not a production version, of the much-anticipated next-gen Acura NSX supercar in Tokyo.
BY ALISA PRIDDLE, PHOTOGRAPHY BY KGP PHOTOGRAPHY AND THE MANUFACTURER September 2007
When it comes to Acura, the most adored nameplate is the NSX supercar (deceased in 2005), and it is here the traditionally conservative parent company, Honda, is proving to be quite the tease.
We salivated at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit last January with the unveiling of the Acura Advanced Sports Car concept (ASCC), which we all assumed was the precursor to the next-gen NSX. With a powerful 5.0-liter V-10 and Acura’s Super Handling All-Wheel Drive, the ASCC no doubt foreshadows a sports car of the highest level, despite crowing from purists that all-wheel drive and an apparent front-engine layout are sacrilege in a car called NSX.
But, in the months that followed, the rumor mill was full of stories about how the carmaker was not as enamored with the concept as we were and more work was needed. That must be the case, because a senior Honda exec recently told Ward’s Automotive Reports that a second supercar concept will be the headliner for Acura at the Tokyo auto show in October—and not a production NSX as promised.
The ever-cautious Honda apparently needs the public to go ga-ga before it can commit. So, we’ll see a more refined “design direction” in Tokyo. It’s now looking like closer to 2010 before the NSX is the headliner for the brand.
And there are further ramifications. The 2009 NSX was to be the cornerstone of the rollout of the Acura brand in Japan, so it appears that plan also is delayed a couple years from the original 2008 target.
Acura is rolling out its 2008 lineup amid record sales of the MDX SUV, and strong demand for the smaller, turbocharged RDX. But August sales in the U.S. were down 10 percent overall and year-to-date the luxury brand is off by more than eight percent.
Acura execs say their goal for this year is to hold the line on sales, during what they describe as a product lull. But, they promise to keep us scribes hopping with product news in the next two years (we can spell NSX).
And we expect to see SH-AWD, which is proving popular, expand further into the lineup. Officials won’t say if existing vehicles must wait for their scheduled redesign to add the feature that increasingly is becoming a point-of-entry for luxury models.
For now, the 2008 lineup is marked by making Bluetooth wireless connectivity a standard feature across the portfolio.
But we expect big transmission news in the not-so-distant future. One major chink in Honda’s armor is the lack of a six-speed automatic transmission. Engineers say one is in the works, and it appears it could make its debut in an Acura. The TL is due for an upgrade in 2009, and a six-speed automatic would go so nicely with a new 3.5-liter V-6.
As for a V-8 in an Acura sedan anytime soon, the company still seems wed to the idea of skipping this step, and going from its current V-6s to a V-10 in the NSX, with no displacement stops in between—no matter how little sense this seems to make.
09-27-2007, 02:04 PM
#3
I believe their Indy car is a V8. There are significant cost considering steps as well.
Design V6----> think of how many Acuras and Hondas use a J series engine. Step thing with K series and R series (mostly in Asia).
If they design the V8, what candidates will receive it other than a RL? It will be a heavy price tag.
Design V6----> think of how many Acuras and Hondas use a J series engine. Step thing with K series and R series (mostly in Asia).
If they design the V8, what candidates will receive it other than a RL? It will be a heavy price tag.
09-27-2007, 02:09 PM
#4
Safety Car
Well they certainly race V-8s a lot. like Indy and ALMS and Formula 1, so you would think that they could translate that to a consumer version.
On a separate note, look at post #28 and forward to see a companion article to the C&D article.
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...?t=4615&page=2
On a separate note, look at post #28 and forward to see a companion article to the C&D article.
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...?t=4615&page=2
09-27-2007, 02:58 PM
#5
AcurAdmirer
I repeat my prediction:
The next-gen RL will get a version of the 3.7-liter V-6 now used in the MDX. It is already tuned for 300 hp and 275 lbs.-ft. of torque, whereas the current RL is 290 hp and 256 lbs.-ft. of torque.
Dropping in that engine alone will increase the RL's torque by almost 7.5% and hp by 10. But a little tweaking can raise that to around 315-320 hp and perhaps 280-285 lbs.-ft. of torque.
That won't make the RL class-leading, but it will endow it with an additional 25-30 hp and a 10% increase in torque. That's enough to shave a couple 10th's off the 0-60 times and give the car some extra liveliness. Provided, of course, they don't cancel that out with additional weight.
I do NOT think for a minute they will drop the V-10 in the RL. Too expensive, especially since it would have to have multiple cylinder deactivation to even have a chance in a family sedan like the RL. It'll probably make it in the NSX - when it finally arrives - but the rest of the Acura family will soldier on with V-6's for quite awhile.
There's a small possibility the RL might some day get a turbo, since Honda is getting fairly comfortable with those. (In fact, the RDX's turbo engine will soon show up in the TSX.) It's a fairly inexpensive and economical route to extra performance.
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The next-gen RL will get a version of the 3.7-liter V-6 now used in the MDX. It is already tuned for 300 hp and 275 lbs.-ft. of torque, whereas the current RL is 290 hp and 256 lbs.-ft. of torque.
Dropping in that engine alone will increase the RL's torque by almost 7.5% and hp by 10. But a little tweaking can raise that to around 315-320 hp and perhaps 280-285 lbs.-ft. of torque.
That won't make the RL class-leading, but it will endow it with an additional 25-30 hp and a 10% increase in torque. That's enough to shave a couple 10th's off the 0-60 times and give the car some extra liveliness. Provided, of course, they don't cancel that out with additional weight.
I do NOT think for a minute they will drop the V-10 in the RL. Too expensive, especially since it would have to have multiple cylinder deactivation to even have a chance in a family sedan like the RL. It'll probably make it in the NSX - when it finally arrives - but the rest of the Acura family will soldier on with V-6's for quite awhile.
There's a small possibility the RL might some day get a turbo, since Honda is getting fairly comfortable with those. (In fact, the RDX's turbo engine will soon show up in the TSX.) It's a fairly inexpensive and economical route to extra performance.
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09-27-2007, 03:06 PM
#6
Torch & Pitchfork Posse
I am anticipating the 3.5 diesel in the RL. It has been announced for the Odyssey, Pilot and Ridgeline. I cannot imagine it will not be offered in the MDX and RL. Better economy of the V6 gas engine and the torgue and feel of the V8 and still keeping in Honda's desire to be greener.
Personally, I can never imagine useful opportunities for a V10 in an everyday driver. In the NSX, absolutely.
Personally, I can never imagine useful opportunities for a V10 in an everyday driver. In the NSX, absolutely.
09-27-2007, 03:49 PM
#7
Go Big Blue!
After reading this article today, I think Acura needs to rethink the idea of a v10 in anything other then a niche car like the NSX.
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/i...-land-cruiser/
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/i...-land-cruiser/
Trending Topics
09-27-2007, 04:07 PM
#8
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by SpicyMikey
After reading this article today, I think Acura needs to rethink the idea of a v10 in anything other then a niche car like the NSX.
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/i...-land-cruiser/
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/i...-land-cruiser/
I think they're just being cagey by downplaying talk of a V8. A V8 makes more sense as it could be put into multiple vehicles for both brands.
09-27-2007, 04:56 PM
#10
AcurAdmirer
Originally Posted by TampaRL
I am anticipating the 3.5 diesel in the RL. It has been announced for the Odyssey, Pilot and Ridgeline. I cannot imagine it will not be offered in the MDX and RL. Better economy of the V6 gas engine and the torgue and feel of the V8 and still keeping in Honda's desire to be greener.
Personally, I can never imagine useful opportunities for a V10 in an everyday driver. In the NSX, absolutely.
Personally, I can never imagine useful opportunities for a V10 in an everyday driver. In the NSX, absolutely.
But public perception of diesels in the U. S. is frankly that they are for trucks, and that diesel fuel itself is smelly and hard to wash off if you get it on you while fueling. In addition, the engines make rattly noises and emit sooty exhaust. And probably as importantly, diesel engines are kind of blue collar and just don't play well at the country club.
In fact, even Mercedes has had a tough time selling diesels, in spite of its up-market image. They're trying to remedy that with the new BlueTec line, but I understand it isn't getting off to a good start.
In short, diesel passenger cars - especially in the luxury segment - just aren't likely to be a big sales success for some time. And Honda isn't into taking risks on low-volume technologies. In the more "industrial" applications like the Ridgeline, and maybe even the Pilot/MDX, it might sell, but I wouldn't hold my breath for a diesel RL for a loooong time.
Just my 2 cents.
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09-27-2007, 05:36 PM
#12
Instructor
Originally Posted by dwboston
Can Honda/Acura afford the development costs of a V10 to then only put it in a niche vehicle? How do you recoup development costs if you can't spread it around to multiple vehicles?
I think they're just being cagey by downplaying talk of a V8. A V8 makes more sense as it could be put into multiple vehicles for both brands.
I think they're just being cagey by downplaying talk of a V8. A V8 makes more sense as it could be put into multiple vehicles for both brands.
09-27-2007, 06:04 PM
#13
AcurAdmirer
Originally Posted by Shotgun
I can easily see a V-10 in the Honda/Acura line up...Think of it, a V-10 with a refined cylinder deactivation feature could give you an on-the-fly V6,8, or 10 option across their model line-up and gain new respect for the Ridgeline...
And face it - most of the world considers a 10-cylinder engine to be at least 2 cylinders more than anyone needs. I mean, everyone from GM to M-B to BMW to you-name-it has V-8's that'll tear the skin off your face in raw acceleration, so why the heck would you complicate things by using a V-10? The average "performance" V-8 cranks out, what, 400 hp or more, which is enough to run in the 4's and 5's to 60mph, and that's fast.
In fact, most everyone has V-6's now that make over 300hp, and today's family cars would embarrass yesterday's hot rods.
So, a V-10 - while it would make the performance freaks grin - is just an expensive, heavy, and inefficient way to move a car down the road fast. But more importantly, it ain't the way Honda goes about doing things. A V-10 may make it into a limited-production halo car like the NSX, but it isn't destined for family haulers ... even nice ones like RL's or cute ones like Ridgelines.
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09-27-2007, 07:00 PM
#14
Senior Moderator
Wow. I don't know what to think about this speculation. I'd love a V8 in an Acura. I'd probably buy one in an attractive-enough package.
Ultimately, I have to agree with Mike in that the RL will get a retuned J37 engine in the (near?) future.
Ultimately, I have to agree with Mike in that the RL will get a retuned J37 engine in the (near?) future.
09-27-2007, 07:17 PM
#15
Torch & Pitchfork Posse
Originally Posted by Mike_TX
I think I recall that you like diesels, and want to see one in an Acura.
But public perception of diesels in the U. S. is frankly that they are for trucks, and that diesel fuel itself is smelly and hard to wash off if you get it on you while fueling. In addition, the engines make rattly noises and emit sooty exhaust. And probably as importantly, diesel engines are kind of blue collar and just don't play well at the country club.
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But public perception of diesels in the U. S. is frankly that they are for trucks, and that diesel fuel itself is smelly and hard to wash off if you get it on you while fueling. In addition, the engines make rattly noises and emit sooty exhaust. And probably as importantly, diesel engines are kind of blue collar and just don't play well at the country club.
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This is exactly the mentality that will keep us paying to fuel 8 and 10 cylinder cars to get our mojo on.
Yes, Honda has a huge chore educating this neaderthal mentality. But isn't that what Honda did in the fuel crunch of the 70's with the CVCC introduction? Seems like there is an awful lot of respect for Honda now.
The green diesels are a HUGE success in Europe. Not only are they quiet, don't clatter or smoke, they sound GREAT. The EuroAccord (our TSX) is a success.
Yes, they have to educate the consumer that you need not pay $55K+ for a Bluetech....the common folk can have green, efficient and good sounding & performing diesels too. AND you do not have to do maintenance by replacing urea packs. THAT is why Mercedes is having issues. The Feds know that the average consumer will not bother with the maintenance and are reluctant to allow them in all markets and high volumes.
But a seamless diesel? No mess, no fuss, no clackety clack? AND you get a big increase in fuel efficiency, durability and torque? Honda will be selling them alot faster than shuttlecar Prius.
Honda took on the challenge in Europe where diesels were also scorned. And they have to build more engine plants to keep up with demand.
Smart, cute marketing worked there...lets see what they can do here. I for one find it a much more intelligent alternative than jonsing for a V########.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=3
And if you can see past that narrow perception you just slathered accross all motorists, listen to this.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=2
I'll gladly welcome an RL Green Diesel. I won't have to stop at the fuel station as frequently and have to look at the guy with the V10 filling up again while he checks himself to be sure his nuts are still there.
09-27-2007, 09:26 PM
#16
AcurAdmirer
Originally Posted by TampaRL
This is exactly the mentality that will keep us paying to fuel 8 and 10 cylinder cars to get our mojo on.
Yes, Honda has a huge chore educating this neaderthal mentality. But isn't that what Honda did in the fuel crunch of the 70's with the CVCC introduction? Seems like there is an awful lot of respect for Honda now.
The green diesels are a HUGE success in Europe. Not only are they quiet, don't clatter or smoke, they sound GREAT. The EuroAccord (our TSX) is a success.
Yes, they have to educate the consumer that you need not pay $55K+ for a Bluetech....the common folk can have green, efficient and good sounding & performing diesels too. AND you do not have to do maintenance by replacing urea packs. THAT is why Mercedes is having issues. The Feds know that the average consumer will not bother with the maintenance and are reluctant to allow them in all markets and high volumes.
But a seamless diesel? No mess, no fuss, no clackety clack? AND you get a big increase in fuel efficiency, durability and torque? Honda will be selling them alot faster than shuttlecar Prius.
Honda took on the challenge in Europe where diesels were also scorned. And they have to build more engine plants to keep up with demand.
Smart, cute marketing worked there...lets see what they can do here. I for one find it a much more intelligent alternative than jonsing for a V########.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=3
And if you can see past that narrow perception you just slathered accross all motorists, listen to this.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=2
I'll gladly welcome an RL Green Diesel. I won't have to stop at the fuel station as frequently and have to look at the guy with the V10 filling up again while he checks himself to be sure his nuts are still there.
Yes, Honda has a huge chore educating this neaderthal mentality. But isn't that what Honda did in the fuel crunch of the 70's with the CVCC introduction? Seems like there is an awful lot of respect for Honda now.
The green diesels are a HUGE success in Europe. Not only are they quiet, don't clatter or smoke, they sound GREAT. The EuroAccord (our TSX) is a success.
Yes, they have to educate the consumer that you need not pay $55K+ for a Bluetech....the common folk can have green, efficient and good sounding & performing diesels too. AND you do not have to do maintenance by replacing urea packs. THAT is why Mercedes is having issues. The Feds know that the average consumer will not bother with the maintenance and are reluctant to allow them in all markets and high volumes.
But a seamless diesel? No mess, no fuss, no clackety clack? AND you get a big increase in fuel efficiency, durability and torque? Honda will be selling them alot faster than shuttlecar Prius.
Honda took on the challenge in Europe where diesels were also scorned. And they have to build more engine plants to keep up with demand.
Smart, cute marketing worked there...lets see what they can do here. I for one find it a much more intelligent alternative than jonsing for a V########.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=3
And if you can see past that narrow perception you just slathered accross all motorists, listen to this.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=2
I'll gladly welcome an RL Green Diesel. I won't have to stop at the fuel station as frequently and have to look at the guy with the V10 filling up again while he checks himself to be sure his nuts are still there.
And you may have an inside line on the "green diesels" you mention, but I hope you haven't seen too many cartoon videos with flowers shooting out the tailpipes of magical diesel cars. The newest generation of diesels promises some sizeable improvements, but I don't think they're going to transform the auto industry or save the whales. Everything has trade-offs and the new diesels are no exception.
But back to the point, I still doubt you'll see a diesel RL within the next decade.
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09-28-2007, 05:45 AM
#17
Torch & Pitchfork Posse
Mike, if you speak what your opinion is, fine. But when you speak for 'All Americans' and what thier perception is, not what YOU feel an entire culture believes, and you direct it as a reply to my post (which states MY expectations), you can certainly expect such a reply.
The 'cartoon' was simply a demonstration that Honda has made an effort to change the perception in Europe, and succeeded. It was not to justify the content of HOW they did it, but a depiction of the mechanism. If you dismiss the message because it is a 'cartoon' so be it. Go shoot the messanger.
The 'cartoon' was simply a demonstration that Honda has made an effort to change the perception in Europe, and succeeded. It was not to justify the content of HOW they did it, but a depiction of the mechanism. If you dismiss the message because it is a 'cartoon' so be it. Go shoot the messanger.
09-28-2007, 08:17 AM
#18
AcurAdmirer
Originally Posted by TampaRL
Mike, if you speak what your opinion is, fine. But when you speak for 'All Americans' and what thier perception is, not what YOU feel an entire culture believes, and you direct it as a reply to my post (which states MY expectations), you can certainly expect such a reply.
The 'cartoon' was simply a demonstration that Honda has made an effort to change the perception in Europe, and succeeded. It was not to justify the content of HOW they did it, but a depiction of the mechanism. If you dismiss the message because it is a 'cartoon' so be it. Go shoot the messanger.
The 'cartoon' was simply a demonstration that Honda has made an effort to change the perception in Europe, and succeeded. It was not to justify the content of HOW they did it, but a depiction of the mechanism. If you dismiss the message because it is a 'cartoon' so be it. Go shoot the messanger.
.
.
09-28-2007, 09:35 PM
#20
AcurAdmirer
Originally Posted by TampaRL
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09-29-2007, 05:38 AM
#21
The thing I remember is that awhile ago, Honda was designing/tweaking the V10 to get some good gas mileage like 20+mpg. If this becomes reality, adding cylinder deactivation is a no brainer.
A detuned V10 with 375-425 HP with iVTEC could supply the adequate torque for the Acura and Honda Truck lines. The RL and TL Type-S would get it also..I hope.
Honda seems serious with the iVTEC and cylinder deactivation. It must be the real deal since the 3.5L Accord has it. The Accord sells too many units for the technology not to work as advertised.
The V10 would be the "home run" shot against the other mfr's since Acura would have a very powerful engine in its lineup, SH-AWD and some new tech goodies.
Imagine the comparo's...there couldn't be any, everybody else has a V8. Also, this could be part of the grand scheme to introduce a flagship sedan.
All speculation but some of the recent posts and articles are showing that Acura is separating from Honda and the execs in Japan have noticed that something is needed (new lineup, new designs, new cars, transmissions and engines).
A detuned V10 with 375-425 HP with iVTEC could supply the adequate torque for the Acura and Honda Truck lines. The RL and TL Type-S would get it also..I hope.
Honda seems serious with the iVTEC and cylinder deactivation. It must be the real deal since the 3.5L Accord has it. The Accord sells too many units for the technology not to work as advertised.
The V10 would be the "home run" shot against the other mfr's since Acura would have a very powerful engine in its lineup, SH-AWD and some new tech goodies.
Imagine the comparo's...there couldn't be any, everybody else has a V8. Also, this could be part of the grand scheme to introduce a flagship sedan.
All speculation but some of the recent posts and articles are showing that Acura is separating from Honda and the execs in Japan have noticed that something is needed (new lineup, new designs, new cars, transmissions and engines).
09-29-2007, 07:58 AM
#22
Go Big Blue!
The noise coming from Acura does seem to be more then usual these days. However, their track record forces you to be skeptical. Is it just rhetoric? I think acura has played this out to the limit now. If they don't stop talking and start delivering, then they will risk destroying this brand and the 20 years of history behind it. 
10-09-2007, 09:55 PM
#24
Torch & Pitchfork Posse
http://www.petrol-head.com/2007/07/v6-diesel-engin.html
"In an interview with Automotive News, Honda CEO Takeo Fukui said that a V6 diesel engine was likely to be built in a near future."
"The Honda Legend may also be equipped with the engine in order to improve its sales in Europe, which have so far been lower than predicted."
"The engine will also be sold in the U.S. market on the bigger models such as the Honda CR-V, Pilot, Ridgeline, the Acura but also the Element."
"In an interview with Automotive News, Honda CEO Takeo Fukui said that a V6 diesel engine was likely to be built in a near future."
"The Honda Legend may also be equipped with the engine in order to improve its sales in Europe, which have so far been lower than predicted."
"The engine will also be sold in the U.S. market on the bigger models such as the Honda CR-V, Pilot, Ridgeline, the Acura but also the Element."
10-10-2007, 06:20 AM
#26
Alpha Geek
Originally Posted by MDs1
I know that Honda is using V8 power on their current F1 cars.
MDs1
MDs1
I really had hopes for them this year, but it's not to be.....I miss 1988....the MP4/4 is still the most dominant F1 car ever.
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