kjag69

1,117 units sold. www.prnewswire.com

CL6

Better link:

http://www.hondanews.com/CatID1007?m...49627&mime=asc

03TL-S

Just for comparisons sake

Infiniti M - 2629
Lexus GS - 2483
Acura RL - 1117

Just as i predicted from the beginning of the M's release. It OUTSOLD LEXUS!

03TL-S

5 - 5265
E - 3,884
M - 2629
GS - 2483
A6 - 1699
RL - 1117

jkanon

that 5 is a killer even with the idrive!

mrdeeno

For those who care but are too lazy to...

Jan-Feb-Mar

5: 4681---4153---5265
E: 2465---2310---3884
GS: 1978---2049---2483
M: 1892---2000---2629
A6: 1617---1168---1699
RL: 773---712---1117

It appears only the GS and M increased, although very slightly, from Jan. to Feb. All the other models had a dip. Weather related and a shorter selling month, perhaps?

From Feb to Mar, all increased sales. Better weather perhaps? The 5 and E increased over a thousand...WTF?

lindros2

Jan and Feb are always slow months - time of year and employee turnover (new car salesmen).

March is also end of quarter so there are additional deals/incentives.

jhr3uva90

Oh well, at least RL sales have increased. I still think that Acura corporate could be pleased with an average 1250 - 1400 sales per month. Also, I still predict that Infiniti M sales will slowly start to decrease.

One more thing: sales of ALL Acura models decreased relative to this time last year. . . except for the TSX. Maybe Acura is just destined to succeed at selling relatively inexpensive cars?

static808

BMW & Mercedes live off the lease payment. At least 70% of their monthly sales are from leased vehicles.

To give our little Acura RL some credit...Lexus and Infiniti are selling 3 models and only getting about 2500 cars/monthly. Come to think of it, that's pretty lame. I guess car badges still make the grade in 2006.

mrdeeno

Last time I looked, the GS was ONE model with different engine choices and/or drive configurations. The M was ONE model with different engine choices and/or drive configurations.

Convention is to go by MAKE / MODEL / ENGINE and/or TRIM / etc. MAKE is the company (Acura, Honda, Toyota, etc.), MODEL is the series (GS, M, RL, A6, 5, E, etc.) , ENGINE and TRIM are sometimes omitted, but are used to describe the model.

But as little sense at it makes, you can say whatever makes you feel better, correct or not.

ilas

I read other sales reports at Autospies. Infiniti sales overall have decreased something like 9% compared to last year. Only sales of the M45 have increased since last year according to the chart posted there (the M35 is not included in it). It's funny how autospies has a heading stating something like "Nissan/Infiniti keep streak going," when in reality it is not the case for Infiniti. Then, when they show Acura sales for March, their headline simply states "RL sales continue to nosedive," even though Acura sales decreased only 5.5% since last year, which is much better than Infiniti. Obviously, Honda is not advertising much with Autospies, as this website is clearly the most biased when it comes to favoring those manufacturers that give it money. Those losers are not objective.

Still, here are a couple points for thought. First, people like to pick on Honda/Acura; they are clearly the Dangerfield of automakers. One only has to read the comment sections to see this. Second, the G sedan for Infiniti is absolutely tanking, with a decrease compared to last year that is much worse than the RL. I predict that M will be in the same situation within 1 year or so. I think this points out for sure that Inifniti has problems with brand image in the same way that Acura does. BMW 3 and 5 sales always stay strong no matter how long the current model has been in production.

jhr3uva90

I would like to congratulate the Infiniti M on outselling the Lexus GS. Good job! The M is an excellent car and I'm glad it is outselling the mediocre GS.

mrdeeno

I think you are reading a little too much into this. The Nis/Inf streak comment may be incorrect if the numbers don't justify it. But just because Acura's sales decreased 5.5% vs. infiniti's 9%, doesn't disprove that "RL sales continue to nosedive." Acura's sales figures can INCREASE 100% for all its worth, but it still doesn't disprove "RL sales continue to nosedive".

Is autospies biased against Acura? Hell yes! But what does the above examples prove? It may be an example of bias FOR Nissan/Infiniti, but it doesn't prove bias AGAINST acura.


I would like to also add a couple points for thought...

1) you are comparing a 4 year old design (G35) to a 2 year old design (RL). The comparison doesn't say anything unless you compare only the first 2 years of the G35 vs. 2 years of the RL.

2) You predict that the M will be in the same situation "within 1 year or so". So you are saying because G35 sales tanked after 4 years on the market, this will predict that M sales will tank 2 years on the markt?

3) RL sales were decent near introduction but steadily decreased. M sales have been decent near intro and continues to do well, and now outselling the GS. But this "points out for sure that Infiniti has problems with brand image in the same way that Acura does." ???


You are basing your conclusion (Infiniti has problems with brand image in the same way that acura does) on evidence that is shaky at best.

am i saying that you're conclusion is wrong? No, your conclusion could be right on...but the evidence you provide is very weak as I have shown above.

ilas

Sorry Mr Deeno for creating a firestorm. I was merely conjecturing, and I still place Acura and Infiniti in similar situations regarding brand image. I am mainly responding, albeit emotionally, to the fact that even old designs for BMWs and Mercedes sell well. I may be wrong, but this is usually not the case with Acura/Infiniti. The M is a fine automobile, and I would have had it on my list if there was an Infiniti dealer within 150 miles of me. Then again, I am not a brand image whore like the thousands who obviously flock to BMW dealers and gobble up underpowered 525's. I bet that 525s are a significant number of 5 sales because they are the least expensive.

static808

Well I guess all the car manufacturer's have one model with different engines/trims. In the end, can you call an M35x the same as a M45? To some people yes.

Regardless, more model trims usually provides a better chance for increased sales. The Acura RL has only 1 model trim and its selling about 1000/month, not good, but not bad.

As mentioned, the 525 is probably the best selling 5 series. I get a kick out of the brand image losers who debadge the 525i emblem and try to outgun my RL. It happened this weekend and the 20something in his "5 series" watched VTEC in action, from a distance on..

mrdeeno

NO NEED to apologize and there's no firestorm.

I just wanted to point out some of the flaws because your evidence provided didn't convince me to your point, even though I agree with your point that Infiniti has an image problem, albeit not on the same scale as Acura though.

I think we ALL know that the 5 and E sells well PRIMARILY due to image, whether earned by merit or not.

mrdeeno

I agree, only one model and one trim selling 1000/mo isn't bad all by itself. Much the same way that the RL is not a bad car taken by itself.

But when compared to rivals with higher sales volume, it doesn't "appear" good, much the same way when the RL is compared against its rivals.

This brings me back to my previous whinings about how Acura SHOULD offer more engine and trim choices, especially for a car going up against some pretty mean competition.

Acura...please send ASS-imo to the grave and spend that money on giving the RL more trim levels and options.

mrdeeno

I find it ironic that a lot of people (many who I personally know also) will buy a 5 or E for image, then turn around and tell everyone that they bought it for the cars merits, such as handling or comfort or *GASP* reliability. They usually say something like "I like the way German cars drive compared to its competitors" when they never even considered the competitors in the first place. i know a girl who bought a vw jetta (last generation, 109hp or something) and said she bought it because it handles like a BMW!?!

Why can't these people just admit they bought the car for image? Whether they admit it or not...we ALREADY KNOW!

03TL-S

Sales are down for the G35 due to it being out for 4 years already. All models from any car make lose sales toward the end of its cycle. If the IS250/350 or the new 3 series didnt come out yet, the G35 would probably have more sales. The IS300 sales were horrible towards its end and even the GS's were bad. Its no surprise which is why the next gen G sedan will be shown at the upcoming autoshow with its release in fall. The sales for the G are still at a healthy number though. There is just too much new competition.

Sales for the M35/45 are always grouped together. So yes both increased. The M sales have exceeded what was predicted. Some even predicted that it would never be able to compete and get ahead of lexus sales. But it looks like infiniti did a marvelous job with this one. I think sales will still continue to be strong. Now that more and more people are seeing this car on the road and compare it to the competition, they see its a better car.

When you talk about brand image, its a totally different issue when it comes to infiniti vs acura. Infiniti is seen as a true luxury car manufacturer while acura is a near-luxury car maker. Just search on the boards because this has been discussed tons of times.

Bert Kanne

Infiniti can only seen as a true luxury car manufacturer because of the M series; the Q is and always has been a failure. Without the M series, business would be pretty dismal at Infiniti. I will never forget when Infiniti's were first introduced; soon many dealers folded leaving a very tarnished image for the company. I don't recall seeing Acura dealers in this situation.

mrdeeno

Uh, Infiniti was doing well with the G35 sedan and coupe, as well as the FX...all before the new M came along.

the reason that Infiniti is seen as a more "true" luxury make compared to Acura is that Acura has always depended on "near luxury" and "low luxury" models such as the TL, TSX, and RSX/Integra. Just the fact that Infiniti offered a Q45, whether it sold well or not, qualified Infiniti among the ranks of true luxury makers.

And the reason that Acura never reached dire straits like infiniti is because they had the Integra to keep them above water while all their other models were mediocre at best...until the last generation TL ('99-2003?) was introduced.

This is why I'm disappointed with Acura/Honda.

Infiniti (and Nissan) had a very bad period in their history, but they were able to turn things around and create successful and popular products, while Acura (and Honda) never had bad times and were always profitable, yet they are so intent to rest on their laurels that other automakers who were once way behind (Infiniti) has surpassed them...perhaps not in pure sales numbers, but in reputation and prestige...and lately also reliability/initial quality (somone check the latest JD scores).

Hyundai's been offering compelling new products that are quickly creeping up the class ranks. I think unless Acura starts really competing with the real players in the luxury class, it's not only going to have competition from the top end, but soon it's gonna have competition from the "near luxury" offerings from hyundai creeping from the bottom up.

jhr3uva90

There are some good points about the rise of Infiniti. The infusion of cash from Renault was helpful, I'm sure.

The big question is: how important is Acura to Honda Motor Corp. in Japan? Acura was barely mentioned in Honda's latest annual report. Are they willing to create a RWD platform similar to the FM platform from Nissan/Infiniti? Are they willing to do whatever it takes to promote the Acura brand the way Toyota does Lexus and Scion?

And what about the Acura folks at corporate in North America? They seem to be focused on new SUVs that will be manufactured in the US and Canada. Do they care about performance cars that can compete with the 3 series or 5 series BMW?

mrdeeno

But then you have to question which came first? chicken or egg?

Is Acura not that important to Honda because it's not doing well?
Or is Acura not doing well because it's not important to Honda?

I think it is neither...I think Acura IS important to Honda, but Honda has lost touch with its customers up until very recently. I say this because of examples like switching the Civic from performance minded double-wishbone to struts, which many people knew was a bad idea. Or the fact that the last Civic SI hatch was a shame to the SI badge. Not to mention the Honda Passport and Acura SLX, or even the last gen RL that sat around for SOOOO long. Or even the whole element fiasco...where they "thought" they understood what Gen-X wanted and designed the car "just for" Gen-X...but the car became more popular with the boomers and kinda dorky to Gen-Xers.

they have only now begun to "get it", first with the last and current TL, then with the current civic and civic SI. But haven't completely gotten back in touch with customers yet...with the recent CL flop and the RL struggling.

I think the MAIN problem is that there is an internal conflict within the company...some in the company KNOW they have to chase customers by producing and designing appealing products...ie THEY KNOW WHAT SELLS and how to SUCCEED! But in the end, they produce a scaled down and compromised product, and expect it to sell because "It's a Honda". All this becasue of resistance from the "traditionalists" who have lived through the good days and are too cocky to admit they have lost touch.

An example of this would be the V8 and V8 platform argument. i'm sure there are many inside corporate Honda that are 90% sure they can succeed with a mass production v8 and platform that would not only sell, but raise the companies image. Just look at the competitors, they are all succeeding with a v8 and never regret having developed it.

But in the end, they produced a compromise product instead...a 300hp (290?) v6. Not as bad as a weak v6, but not as capable as a decent v8 either = compromise...

psteng19

Actually, I'm pretty shocked the G35 is doing relatively well despite stiff competition from the new IS and 3, both of which are arguably superior (and more desired) vehicles.

Must be the G's agressive pricing and incentives.

Senneca01

IMHO, the Infiniti G is doing just fine, even after 4 years on the market. I am sure the M will do the same.

March 2006 Sales

1. 3-Series - 10,093
2. TL - 6,767
3. G35 - 5,829
4. CTS - 5,386
5. IS - 5,210
6. C-Class - 3,906
7. A4 - 3,885
8. S60 - 2,341

static808

Is Acura worth it to Honda, I think yes. They are launching Acura in China and Japan in 2008. There have been rumblings to launch the line in Europe also.

Honda is lean and mean and they have accumlated a nice bankroll over the last 10 years. Time to reinvest in Acura, which is already starting with the redesign of the MDX, new RDX and refresh of the TL around the corner. New model line and new designs that are totally independent of Honda. Lets see if that happens. I see Acura in 2008/09 reinvented.

In the meantime, Infiniti has done a good job rebuilding its image, kudos to Nissan/Renault for making that happen.

CL6

Nissan did it by taking chances. Honda doesn't like to take chances, hence the RL.

Bert Kanne

[QUOTE=mrdeeno]Uh, Infiniti was doing well with the G35 sedan and coupe, as well as the FX...all before the new M came along.

the reason that Infiniti is seen as a more "true" luxury make compared to Acura is that Acura has always depended on "near luxury" and "low luxury" models such as the TL, TSX, and RSX/Integra. Just the fact that Infiniti offered a Q45, whether it sold well or not, qualified Infiniti among the ranks of true luxury makers.

And the reason that Acura never reached dire straits like infiniti is because they had the Integra to keep them above water while all their other models were mediocre at best...until the last generation TL ('99-2003?) was introduced.

This is why I'm disappointed with Acura/Honda.

Infiniti (and Nissan) had a very bad period in their history, but they were able to turn things around and create successful and popular products, while Acura (and Honda) never had bad times and were always profitable, yet they are so intent to rest on their laurels that other automakers who were once way behind (Infiniti) has surpassed them...perhaps not in pure sales numbers, but in reputation and prestige...and lately also reliability/initial quality (somone check the latest JD scores).

Hyundai's been offering compelling new products that are quickly creeping up the class ranks. I think unless Acura starts really competing with the real players in the luxury class, it's not only going to have competition from the top end, but soon it's gonna have competition from the "near luxury" offerings from hyundai creeping from the bottom up.[/QUOTE

Infiniti has definitely recovered from it's weak past in terms of overall sales, but they now have some pretty strange styling and quality (interior plastics and such) issues to keep sales going on models as their lineup ages. Acura has not really had neither of these problems as of late. I can't imagine the Infiniti's FX series having good resale a few years down the road; the styling is way too over the top. Most of the original line of cars from Lexus, Infiniti and Acura were generally panned in the beginning except for the LS400 and the original Legend. Infiniti did have a car that was almost a competitor to the Integra price wise except it did not come in a coupe and it flopped; the G20.

mrdeeno

"strange styling and quality"? What do you mean by that? What is "strange quality"?

the interior quality of 2nd generation post-Ghosn cars is on par with the best in class.

As for styling that's "over the top", this doesn't mean that resale will be poor at all. The FX is aggressively styled but very tasteful, unlike the Aztek which is aggressively styled but ugly.

For a counter argument, styling that's not "over the top" doesn't translate to good resale either (prev. RL, current RL, CL).

03TL-S

Strange styling? Infiniti styling in their vehicles is their strong point. They make it a point to stand out in a good way. Have you been in each infiniti as of recently? All the materials are top notch and build quality is very good. The QX build quality sucks from what i hear, but thats about it. Its porbably due to it being built in the US. As for the Q, have you sat in there? Even lexus fanboys say that the material used in the Q is top notch. It doesnt sell, but hey, its still extremely luxurious. The Q is the last in line for infiniti to redesign to have a completely good lineup.

mrdeeno

But again, what does he mean by "strange" styling and quality?

"Strange" styling, as in strange but cool like lenny kravitz?
Or "strange" styling as in strange like flavor flav?

And "strange" quality? Like, "that's STRANGE...i expected crap materials in this car, but it's actually really nice!"

or "strange" quality as in "Ooh, the leather is oozing somekind of goo and the plastics feels like memory foam...that's STRANGE!"

jhr3uva90

How about "unusual" as in, Infinti's cars don't look like the usual Japanese cars. I think the G35 looks more French than Japanese. The RL, on the other hand, looks very Japanese, which is why it looks like most Toyotas and Hondas.

mrdeeno

We're only on page 2 and you're playing the race card already...what a low-down-dirty shame.

i have to admit though, camries and accords do have slanty headlights.

jhr3uva90

I didn't mean "Japanese" from an ethnic perspective, I meant from an aesthetic perspective. And Japanese cars, at first glance, tend to resemble. Have you seen the new Camry yet? I saw one coming at me today and first I thought it was a new Acura TL, then I thought it was a Mazda, finally I recognized it as the 2007 Camry.

And if Japanese-designed cars don't tend to resemble each other, why are people complaining that the RL looks like an Accord? Why do people say the Lexus ES looks like a Camry? Why did people say the Lexus LS looked like an Avalon?

No one ever confused a Mercedes, a BMW, and an Audi, especially since Chris Bangle started designing BMWs.

mrdeeno

Now you're saying all asians look the same?!?

Man, you're just digging in deeper and deeper into your hole!


I'm just joking by the way, but i do find it funny how easy the "race card" can be played even when applied to cars.

And i agree that a lot of automakers (who are successful with 'vanilla') play it too safe. I guess Nissan/Inf had nothing to lose, which is why they could make such a bold move and not be criticized for it.

Maybe the guys who designed the Aztek work for Honda or Toyota now, so those companies are keeping a tight rein on their designs just in case.

vp911

http://www.autospies.com/article/ind...2&categoryId=9 I believe somebody mentioned this earlier in the thread.

Cog Neuro Sci

The RL is clearly superior technologically and in interior design to the GS and M so why is it selling like a pancake?

That link above states many of the more obvious reasons why the RL isn't selling, like the lack of a V8 and Acura's image as a entry level luxury brand, but the latter is not as critical as some people might believe because Infiniti was able to overcome the same issue that was even worse.

There's a few other points that haven't really been mentioned or at least not in great enough detail. First, the interior of the RL is avant garde and beautifully done. But no one has mentioned that the center vertical stack is TOO THIN. Buyers in this level want to feel a sense of power and strength and size, but the RL's center stack looks thin, frail, and meek. Don't get me wrong, I personally think it's a fresh change from the usual center stack design. However, I think Acura needs to widen it by 1.5 ot 2 inches. And perhaps make it taller as well. The M also has an unique and visually pleasing center console but the M's looks strong and substantial. The GS is full of questionable ergonomics and the dash and center console seem to go UP forever, looking and feeling way too tall (definitely done on purpose and is also seen in the new ES), but still retains a general Lexus look and feel that buyers have come to take for granted.

Second, the exterior needs to look more substantial. The first post in the autospies link above mentions this but merely says it's too small. Others have called it conservative styling. But how is it too small and in what ways is it too conservative? What I see is the front nose sloping down too fast and the left and right sides curving inward too sharply, which creates a beak effect and makes the hoodline look too short. A very similar effect happens with the Mazda 6 when compared with the TSX. Those two cars are surprisingly similar in exterior design elements BTW, but the TSX looks 100 times better partly because its front end looks like it has more mass whereas the Mazda 6 front end has a shark nose effect and looks meek. Compare the beak effect of the RL to the long, sloping hoodline of the GS and the strong, blockier front end of the M. In fact, put the RL right next to a TL and you can see that the TL has longer looking, more impressive hoodline.

As if the short, beaky front end of the RL wasn't bad enough on its own, Acura had to pair it with a very, very, very, very short trunk. Acura could have taken the short length for all its worth but instead, they chisel the end down and left and right sides inward, thus making it look even smaller. The effect is an overall "weird" proportion look from the side profile. In addition, both from the side view and the front and back views, the RL looks small when in fact it's not really that small, just a visual illusion.

Finally, the RL "variation" on the way overused parallelogram taillight design is unacceptable in a car that's supposed to be avant garde. I'm not going to list all the cars on the market that have used the parallelogram taillight theme over the past 5 years but the Scion TC and Pontiac G6 should be enough. For some reason, there is a pattern of the parallelogram taillight being paired with the trend for shortened rear ends and reduced overhangs, something that I just don't get from a design point of view. I wonder what is the philosophy behind this, because it is EXACTLY what you don't want to do. Regardless, why would Acura jump on this ill-conceived bandwagon for its flagship? From a distance, the RL looks extremely undistinctive such that you might mistake it for an American car. There's no way you can tell it's an RL until you get much closer. From a distance, you don't miss the GS or the TSX, whose taillights are so distinct that they are permanently embedded into the unconscious mind and recognized immediately at a distance by even the most aesthetically unperceptive people.

Acura could quickly and easily fix the problems. Infiniti did with the G35.

mrdeeno

So you say the RL is "clearly" superior in interior design to the GS and M, but then you go on to say:


If the RL's interior is "clearly" superior as you have stated, then there would be no criticism of it. it's superiority is clear as mud to me.


As for being technologically superior, check out this link:

http://www.telematicsresearch.com/im...logy_Index.JPG

The link may be relevant to Acura in general and not the RL, but Acura is the only premium brand ranked below a non-premium brand (chevy).

Acura my have Trafficlink Navi or whatever they call it, but so does Caddy. What else does the RL offer that's exclusive?

Adaptive headlights? nope
navigation? nope
5.1 surround sound? nope
adaptive cruise? nope
sh-awd? it's arguable since most people don't care whether it's sh- or not.
pre-crash? nope
backup cam? nope
sat. radio? nope

i can't think of anything that makes the RL clearly superior technologically to any other offering in this segment. The only difference is that most of the items are standard as opposed to options, but that still doesn't make it technologically superior. Again, it's as clear as mud.

i'm not saying that the RL doesn't have any advantages over its competitors, but I'm saying that your ascertion that the RL is "clearly superior technologically and in interior design" is inaccurate. "Marginably" may be a better word.

Cog Neuro Sci

Of course I can elaborate on both counts, but I won't because it's unnecessary. There is ABOSOLUTELY NOTHING contradictory in my statements on the interior. Read my words again. Read EVERY SINGLE word. Maybe even a dictionary might help you.

On the technology side, I'll let YOU read more about the M and the GS. That's not my responsibility.

jhr3uva90

I think everyone here has made very well-stated points. I know I keep harping on one issue, but please don't underestimate the power of brand perception. Until recently, the general public had forgotten all about Infiniti, so they had a clean slate to work with. Acura's job is, in some ways, more difficult than Infiniti's because they DON'T have a clean slate. Acura has been pigeon-holed into the role of Japanese Volvo: a premium brand but not a luxury brand.

Let me put it this way: of the RL was a Lexus, it will sell twice as many units. You wouldn't have to change anything about it. Conversely, if the Lexus GS was an Acura, it will get the same chilly reception that the RL has gotten. In fact if the GS was an Acura, I think Acura customers would be complaining that the V8 version costs too much!