db22

Recently across much of the nation and here in So. Cal we have had some inclement weather. Driving in such conditions inherently reduces ones visability and requires additional concentration. The freeways are more congested due to the reduced speeds and the consequential spray and mist greatly add to the incident recognition times.
It was in such circumstances that I realized the value of the rear high intensity lamp and the amber turn signals that are required in the European markets. The lamp allows much earlier recognition of a vehicle in front of you and the amber turn signals allow much earlier recognition of an intended lane change. I am sure that many people on this forum have experienced the advantages of both items and maybe some on this forum actually drive an RL with the additional rear light.
I am interested in opinions of these two items and also how is the high intensity rear light implemented on the 2G RL?
Additionally, my old German manufactured Cadillac Catera turned the lights on when the wipers are activated for more than 20 seconds. This alleviated human intervention for the drivers that assume that lights in reduced visability conditions are for you to be seen and not for you to see. Besides, lights on in the rain is the law in California.

Ballinger

I've never seen the rear fog light on an RL, and we do, of course, already have the amber turn signals. Ironically, I've decided that the aesthetically pleasing version of my bulbs is harder to see in daylight...night or rain is fine, but I might be swapping back.

037

I'm not sure what you mean by High Intensity rear light...the LEDs on my RL are blinding at night. No one is going to miss those.

DandyG23

I actually a lot of vehicles theses days with LED rear lights and with HID headlights. It seems it has become the standard even with economy cars.

Chas2

Outside the US, many countries have requirements for a high intensity red rear lamp that turns on when the fog lights are on. This makes the rear of the car much more visible, but can be an absolute pain in the ass to the following driver during a clear night. These suckers are bright. Some are integrated into the tail light assembly, and I have seen others added on by the dealer below the bumper to comply with local rules, for example, JDM cars imported into Hong Kong.

Don't know about the amber lights, but it has been a long time since I have seen a Eurospec car.

db22

The high intensity lamp is frequently only one lamp and is separately switched on by the driver in "conditions of reduced visability". Numerous cars have them integrated into the tail light assy, e.g. Volvo or have additional lights like the Lexus GS300 which has the 2 red lights either side of the license plate. The luminous output is at lest double that of normal rear lights and yes they are anoying if used in "normal visability". It is quite normal for drivers to put their high beams on to remind the driver in front of them that their light is on when it need not be. Normal LED's, even the RL's, are not as bright as the requirements for this type of lamp.
With respect to the amber turn signal lamps - to my knowledge, the only western country that does not require them is Canada.

CFoote

The only thing I can add to this discussion is that this topic came up to Rich Brekkus, brand manager at BMW. Someone asked why the European spec BMWs had the rear fog light and why U.S. cars did not. His answer? People in the U.S. would have no idea how to use them, and "we all know how annoying they are when used improperly". The reality is that 99% of the driving public would not understand the use of this light and that is why it is not installed on U.S. spec BMWs. Honestly, I agree with him, the general public is clueless and stupid on the majority of options in luxury cars. We are the small minority that understand our cars and how they are put together.

I'm sure Acura thought about the possibility and probably thought the same thing. I can tell you that it is very frustrating driving in front of someone with this light on in good conditions.

Chris

TampaRLX-SH

European and JDM LEGENDs have rear fogs / HIDs.

In the pre 2008 models, they were located in the chrome trim above the rear tag. It was a larger trim piece than the NA spec RLs.

http://www.carpages.co.uk/honda/hond...r-20-02-07.jpg

Now in 2009+ RLs, we have the backup lights where the LEGENDs have rear fogs / HID.

db22

I too agree with BMW but BMW also use red turn signals on their new cars. I must assume that American BMW drivers have no idea how to use the indicators either so it does not matter what color they are?

Chas2

The Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 108 for lighting, addresses turn signals, and allows red or amber, but not white. I do not know the origin of red turn signals, except that it is likely US legacy motor vehicle code.

DandyG23

I know red and amber are allowed for rear turn signals. White and amber is allowed in the front turn signals. At least that is what I know in California and Nevada.

Chas2

If local or state laws supersede federal law, then that is very possible. Otherwise for passenger cars, FMVSS 108 reads

Turn signal lamps
..................
At or near the front--1 amber on each side of the vertical centerline, at the same height, and as far apart as practicable.

On the rear--1 red or amber on each side of the vertical centerline, at the same height, and as far apart as practicable.

db22

Even though the NHTSA and numerous other agencies have evidence that Amber turn signals are earlier recognised than red lamps, they do not change the codes for the sake of safety. Only a government agency could be this stupid. The Cadillac STS advertised that its LED rear indicators had a faster recognition rate than incandecant bulbs and therefore gave drivers several feet of advanced warning providing increased safety but they still used RED LED's. Go figure.

CFoote

The rear fog lamp and turn signals are two seperate issues. The rear fog lamp is for the reason stated above....the newer cars with the red turn signals? Your guess is as good as mine on that....I think they must have run out of things to change and decided to do something stupid like change the turn signal from amber to red

db22

You would think that "the ultimate driving machine" could change the colors anytime using I Drive!

db22

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Co...r_20080304.jpg

Picture of the Corvette C5 with Amber turn signals and high intensity rear fog lights.

TampaRLX-SH

That is an offshore spec Corvette, likely European. Notice the elongated tag on the rear, and also on the image of the frontal view.

Richbum

WRONG. US law makes it illegal to have rear fog lights. My 2010 370z has a place where the rear fog lights should have been, but taken out. Which is why I went JDM and bought the rear lights anyways from japan and had them installed.

db22

I think that you should site the US law that prohibits these lights. Numerous cars have them removed because of the lack of drivers knowledge in the US on how to use them. Numerous EU cars that have amber turn signals also remove them for the US because safety is secondary to "design". "However, they are permitted, and are found almost exclusively on European-brand vehicles in North America — Audi, Jaguar, Mercedes, MINI, Land Rover, Saab and Volvo provide functional rear fog lights on their North American models. The final generation Oldsmobile Aurora also had dual rear fog lights installed in the rear bumper as standard equipment." I know Oldsmobile is no longer but I don't think that it was because they installed Rear Fog Lights.

db22

A further note regarding amber turn signals:
In North America the rear signals may be amber or red. International proponents of amber rear signals say they are more easily discernible as turn signals. U.S. studies in the early 1990s demonstrated improvements in the speed and accuracy of following drivers' reaction to brake lamps when the turn signals were amber rather than red.[36][37][38][39][40] American regulators and other proponents of red rear turn signals have historically asserted there is no proven benefit to amber signals. However, a 2008 U.S. study by NHTSA (the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration) suggests vehicles with amber rear signals rather than red ones are up to 28% less likely to be involved in certain kinds of collisions,[41] and a 2009 NHTSA study determined there is a significant overall safety benefit to amber rather than red rear turn signals.[

Chas2

I guess that says we will have another rule change soon, although since NHTSA works with deliberation, it may be a few years...give the manufacturers time to implement through design, supply chain, manufacturing, etc.

Richbum

nice job quoting wikipedia. either way, i shoulda say that US laws make it "almost" illegal to have rear foglights because they require them to be less than a certain brightness, which most are over. thus, most of them are removed because they are illegal. trust, I know for a fact that the stock the ones on my 370z are illegal in the US.

Ballinger

Y'know, Mercedes e-class that are USA-spec include an option for a rear fog light. So do USA-spec Mini Coopers. I'd suggest that means they're not illegal.

TampaRLX-SH

"In Europe and other countries adhering to ECE Regulation 48, vehicles must be equipped with one or two bright red "rear fog lamps" (or "fog taillamps"), which serve as high-intensity rear position lamps to be energised by the driver in conditions of poor visibility to enhance vehicle conspicuity from the rear. The allowable range of intensity for a rear fog lamp is 150 to 300 candelas,[15] which is within the range of a U.S. brake lamp.[5] For this reason, some European vehicles imported to the United States have their rear fog lamps wired as brake lamps, since their European-specification brake lamps may not be sufficiently intense to comply with U.S. regulations, and in North America rear fog lamps are not required equipment. However, they are permitted, and are found almost exclusively on European-brand vehicles in North America — Audi, Jaguar, Mercedes, MINI, Land Rover, Saab and Volvo provide functional rear fog lights on their North American models. The final generation Oldsmobile Aurora also had dual rear fog lights installed in the rear bumper as standard equipment.

Most jurisdictions permit rear fog lamps to be installed either singly or in pairs. If a single rear fog is fitted, most jurisdictions require it to be located at or to the driver's side of the vehicle's centreline — whichever side is the prevailing driver's side in the country in which the vehicle is registered.[15] This is to maximise the sight line of following drivers to the rear fog lamp. If two rear fog lamps are fitted, they must be symmetrical with respect to the vehicle's centreline.[15] Proponents of twin rear fog lamps say two lamps provide vehicle distance information not available from a single lamp. Proponents of the single rear fog lamp say dual rear fog lamps closely mimic the appearance of illuminated brake lamps (which are mandatorily installed in pairs), reducing the conspicuity of the brake lamps' message when the rear fogs are activated. To provide some safeguard against rear fog lamps being confused with brake lamps, ECE R48 requires a separation of at least 10 cm between the closest illuminated edges of any brake lamp and any rear fog lamp.[15]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_lighting

VOdoc

db22--

You are right on. All rear turn signals should be amber, as they are on the RL. (I never understood why my otherwise well-equipped 2004 TL had red turn signals. That is one reason I sold it to upgrade to the RL. Too many close calls.)

I also agree that SoCal drivers show little evidence of understanding the indications for actually using a turn signal--apparently thinking it unwise to give advance notice to enemy drivers--so perhaps the color is a moot point.

CJITTY

Not sure about the RL, but I did a conversion on my 03 TLs for HID rear fogs

https://acurazine.com/forums/2g-tl-1999-2003-98/rear-fog-lights-updated-pics-741210/

PortlandRL

I found this where somebody hooked up the rear fog lights on a Hyundai Santa Fe...this should give you an idea of their brightness.