F.Rizzo

Lemme start by saying that this is probably the only board in the world where you could ask a question like this and not get flamed. When I saw the love fest for Mike and his new Lexus, it brings a tear to my eye...

I'd like your guys opinions. The lease is up at the end of March on Mrs Rizzo's Benz and I thought the RL was a shoe in. Mrs Riz will get the RDX and I get the new car

On a recommendation of from a buddy I stopped by my local Chrysler dealer to look at a 2008 300C, and I left pretty impressed. The Benz influence can be seen all over the place on the car: the key, signal stalk, wipers, etc.

The content is amazing. The model I was looking at was call the SRT Design and it has the performance upgrades from the SRT8 without the 6.1 engine - it "makes due" with a 350HP Hemi. Everything I've seen in my short research period indicates that the car shares the same platform as the E class Mercedes.
There is almost everything I wished the RL had included on this car. Remote start, auto dim side view mirrors, rain sensing wipers, 390 lb.-ft., 20" wheels,. The Boston factory stereo is great. The Nav is touch screen/voice activated with Sirius traffic and a 20GB hard drive. It does not have cooled seats or keyless ignition.

As is the car is $42,675k. They sell for close to invoice minus $3750 in rebates makes it around $36k. It's too interesting to ignore.

I live in Los Angeles, so the SH-AWD is not a major factor and the 300 actually feels like it handles better because of the 255/45/20 performance tires and suspension. The ride is great - it has independent rear suspension. They are within 1 MPG of each other according to the window sticker and the 300 does better on the highway because it deactivates 4 cylinders under light load. The SRT seats have great support and have the perforated suede inserts that look great. The 300's headlights are HID, but are not active.

Adding to the decision process is the fact that our Benz has had no problems whatsoever during it's term with us, and one could extrapolate that the Daimler Chrysler should be near the same. We would lease the car for 36 mos.
Oh - and I like the way both cars look but maybe I like the 300 a little bit more.

Input welcome.

Ernie Golfs

I have a good friend that has an 06 300c. He keeps complaining about the mileage with the Hemi. At best he gets 23 on the highway and 14 in town. I've been to LA with him several times in the 300. It has lots of power in a strait line. It seems to ride to soft to me. I don't care for the interior, the white gages in the insturment cluster turn me off. Locally I see a lot of the used 300s for sale. The body style hasn't changed since it came out, I can't tell a new one from an old one. I personally don't care for the boxy look of the 300.

RL06tech

No flames but......... a 300C??? The interior is at best K mart quality. They handling is ponderous. The fit and finish are atrocious. The visibilty is awful. I test drove one and the only decent thing in the entire car was the optional boston acoustic radio (which is not in the same league as the RL radio). Even with the Hemi engine its barely faster than the RL in a straight line, throw some curves in the equation and the "underpowered RL will spank it silly. I'd buy an Avalon 5 times over before I'd buy such a piece of crap. Personally the only cars I would consider comming from an RL as an "upgrade" (not that I would ever spend the money) would be an M5 or an AMG.

larrynimmo

don't be too tough on Rizzo...I too admire the look and package of the 300.

that being said, when I went car shopping, i decided against it pretty quickly. It has a classy look with good (not great) finishing qualities. The deciding factor is it is too big and too american for me.



But the biggest thing is what I always ask..."will I be happy with this car in two years". The 300 is a no.

F.Rizzo

How is the RL (current gen) any different ?

F.Rizzo

Actually the RL and the RDX/MDX dont handle that well unless you are on the gas to engage the SH-AWD. Under light throttle or lift they seem to plow a lot. The RL seems to be aimed more at ride comfort with the 17" rims. The 300 with the SRT suspension package seems to handle better to me. The radio is subjective, the marketing is better on ELS but the sound quality is no better than anything else out there. An Avalon is like driving a refrigerator, I dont get that comparison.

jftjr

I couldn't stand the lack of steering feel in the 300C. It reminded me of driving an old AMC product -- it seemed like after a turn I had to crank the wheel back to center, and it was so numb that it was hard to tell where center was.

I also found the interior material quality to be lacking, and the nav system was utter crap -- although it sounds like they've upgraded it from your description, because it was the older Mercedes system where you had to jigger in your addresses one letter at a time with a stupid little joystick.

The ride was also too floaty for my tastes. I think they're aiming at a crowd that has fond memories of 60's Mopar luxury, and, well, I'm not a member of that crowd.

I do like the way the car looks -- there's a fair number of Bentleys in my neighborhood, and I'm always amused at how much they look like 300C's at a glance. But that's the only positive I can think of.

Ernie Golfs

The styling of the RL looks much more modern then the 300C. If you want to drive an arodynamic box with an analog looking clock in the dash, go for it. I still think it is a BIG step down from the RL. MB dropped Chrysler because it's stock holders felt MB's image was being dragged down by the affilation. Look, it's your money and your choice. If you really like it, buy it!

ChicagoTony

for that price range, i would definitely consider the cadillac cts (I am...)

GTSX-05

iTrader: (1)

Having worked at the Daimler Chrysler Assembly Plant in Brampton Ontario, where the; Chrysler 300 and Dodge Charger are made. I am appalled at what I have seen, kids no older than 18 working full time with little or no supervision or quality re-assurance. What this means is a problem is barely detected by the factory unless it occurs with you behind the wheel. Chrysler has made serious strides for improvement on overall quality and fit and finish which was the section I worked in. I feel responsible for them since I worked at the plant for quite some time. Furthermore the Street and Racing Tech that is optional with the 300C has serious pros at least in my book, the 20” forged rims, Brembo BBK and those racing styled seats are a must. The styling is a pro, and that 6.1L V8 in the SRT is an absolute beast. The cons are very loose steering wheel feel, the car is great in straight lines but personally it handles like a boat, not to mention those chopped windows which make it difficult to see out of the windshield is actually as small as it looks.

Personally I would seriously consider your other options, personally nothing means more to me in a vehicle then overall power output which the 300C has and fit and finish which the 300C is lacking. Consider looking at other vehicles in its class. Nothing has better fit and finish and overall styling then a Acura RL.

neuronbob

In that price range, I'd look at the newer, better Caddy CTS, or an RL with A-Spec suspension. I personally like the looks of the 300, but its driving dynamics are untenable for an enthusiast. The SRT version goes fast in a straight line, but that's about it. I drove one back when they were released as I was curious about it.

RL DEFINITELY FTW here even without a Hemi.

Hey Riz, I read your comments about the RL's handling. It's too bad most Acura dealers don't have an A-Spec RL for test drives. The handling is MUCH better even in everyday driving without a significant loss of ride quality.

Don't write off the RL just yet.

lumpulus

I drove a 300 rental when I went on a business trip recently, and to say I was not impressed is an understatement.

Pros....

The heater worked well, and the Sirius Sat radio worked well

Cons...The throttle response was a joke....I could never find a happy medium while driving on the highway.

The view out of the car is horrible, I felt like I was sitting in a frying pan.

The fit and finish was typical Chrysler....terrible. The car only had 3000 miles on it, and it rattled like it was filled with BBs.

VOdoc

Hi Riz,

I live in L.A. too and I mistakenly thought that SH-AWD was not a big factor. The day I bought the car it was pouring rain. You know L.A. drivers--they freak out at the first raindrop. People were all over the road, but not me. The secure handling of the RL in bad weather conditions was my first clue that this baby was a major step up from my TL. Since then I've come to appreciate the stability in other conditions such as reverse-banked offramps, evasive maneuvering to avoid imminent collisions, and just going fast around corners. That's not to mention the build quality, classic styling, creature comforts, killer technology, and bulletproof Honda reliability.

I guess a Caddy CTS is in this league, as Neuron says, maybe take a look. However, U.S. manufacturers have never failed to screw up either in design or manufacture. Oh, and the 300C: throw some 20" chrome wheels on there, deeply tint the windows, and you can get pulled over daily just so the cops can see what mischief you might be up to with that powerful hemi! (The RL is a stealth fighter by comparison.)

F.Rizzo

Yeah, I need to look at a CTS...I just think the thing is so fugly from the front.

My biggest concern is the quality - and what GTSX is how I kind of imagine it going together and causing problems. I'm going to start asking the people I know who have them the key question: "would you buy another?"

larrynimmo

ru going to be happy with that CTS is 2 years when it will really start to look dated. I personally fine the proportions of the body, (tall & narrow) to be something that will be regretted in years to come. I like RL, M, 5, GS, ES in our class range.

Mike_TX

Whew! I'm no Cadillac fanboy by any means, but when you talk about dated styling ... nothing is as dated as a retro design style, which the 300 obviously is. IOW, you can count on a warmed-over design to be dated much sooner than a fresh style.

I was slow to warm up to the CTS/STS styling myself, and it took the new CTS (wider, hunkier) to look right to me. The 300's styling, OTOH, made my hair hurt from the start ... boxy, ponderous and heavy-looking, gangsta/hip-hop/1960's styling. Chrysler has just about worked the retro theme to death, and unless they come up with some fresh designs SOON, they are in serious trouble. And that's not just me talking.

What that means is that new styling, which must come, will make that 300 yesterday's news overnight.

Sorry, Rizzo. I know a lot of people love the 300's styling, but I'm not one of them. And then, of course, there's the legendary Chrysler build quality and reliability.

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GoHawks

The previous gen CTS did nothing for me, but the subtle changes they've done with the new model have really got me likeing this car. As you stated, the "more hunkered down" stance and softening of some of the creases.

The grille is a little in your face, but so is an MDX.

I've said it numerous times before, if the reliability holds out, I will seriously look at this car in the future.

larrynimmo

you talk about the "legendary Chrysler build quality"...I have owned 5 Chrysler vehicles...
1987 Plymouth Reliant Wagon, 1990 Grand Caravan, 1994 Chrysler Town & Country, 1998 Dodge Grand Caravan, 1998 Town & Country. Virtually no problems with any vehicles for the first 100,000 miles. One vehicle, the 1998 Dodge Grand Caravan blew a head gasket for $900 repair, and the same vehicle had the transmission replaced for $2,000. No squeaks, no rattles, good tire life, decent fuel economy. no timing belts to replace. Decent stereo's, adequete handling & braking.

I don't currently buy Chrysler vehicles, that is because they are too plain for me and I like to sell my 4 year old cars to buy new ones, and the Chryslers don't hold their value, so I feel I have to hold on to the Chryslers. The only other issues that I can think of is that I have had electric window opener problems, but it costs little to get fixed at the auto glass stores.

Mike_TX

I'm speaking not from personal experience, but second-hand from my buddy, who is a retired Chrysler exec.

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ram_g

Probably ought to weigh in here...by way of background, the RL is the wife's car; my own is a Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT-8.

Obviously the Jeep is not the same as the 300C, so I can't comment on looks etc., but I can comment on features and quality.

My SRT is a 2008, so it has the same MyGIG Nav/HD/Sirius system as in the latest 300Cs. From a side-by-side comparison, I must say I prefer the Jeep/Chrysler system over the Acura. The hard-disk for music storage is simply spectacular - I have loaded my entire classic-rock collection and I have plenty of space left. Integration into the vehicle systems is as good as or better than the Acura. The touch-screen Nav input seems more user friendly than the Acura system, and the screen in general is brighter and crisper. On the down-side, I find the XM Nav-traffic on the Acura to be more accurate and informative than the Sirius satellite traffic system that comes with the Jeep/Chrysler - in fact, in general I prefer XM to Sirius.

I really can't think of any luxury feature that the Acura has that I miss on the Jeep, whereas the reverse is not true - e.g. I find the automatic wipers really useful and a feature strangely missing from the Acura; and the seats (SRT) are SO much better.

From a quality point of view, the Acura wins, but only in a couple of very specific areas. One is paint quality, for which the Jeep outright sucks, I have never seen so much orange peel or other paint flaws on a recent vehicle. The other is "feel" of interior materials, where the Acura is again clearly superior. But in ~5000 miles with the Jeep, I haven't had any reliability issues (touch wood). In terms of rattles, both cars do it, so neither wins.

From the perspective of dynamics - with the SRT engine and Jeep AWD, my car is probably quite different to a 300C - but comparing the SRT to the RL, there's a reason that the former is MINE and the latter HERS - the SRT blows away the RL whether the road is straight or twisty. If you don't believe me, read some of the SRT reviews or search YouTube for clips of the SRT Experience, which is a road course track experience that Chrysler provides to all SRT owners, using stock vehicles. (Edit - my point here is not based on reviews, but on personal experience. Sure the RL is VERY good dynamically, but the SRT IMO is better.)


In summary, I don't think that some of the responses to Rizzo's question are quite accurate. On balance, compared to a new RL, a new 300C with the SRT Design package will likely have poorer quality and fit/finish; handling and dynamics on par (would be better with the true SRT 6.1 engine); and a feature set better than the RL.

ram_g

A clarification point re: the 300C's link to the MB E-class - yes, the platform uses pieces of the E-class, but it's the previous E-class platform (mid '90s / early '00s) not the current one.

There are several subsystems (e.g. climate control, ignition key, etc.) that are still shared with MB. Also true SRTs (with the 6.1 engine) use an AMG transmission to be able to handle the torque.

neuronbob

Thanks for your post, ram. It's good to hear from someone with extensive experience with both recent Chrysler products and the RL.

RL06tech

They only plow if driven agressively. As you well pointed out a little gas completely eliminates that tendency and expands the driving envelope impressively. That is one point many people don't get, SHAWD takes a different driving technique from all other drive systems, however once you learn everything pales in comparison!
My point is that If you are an RL driver a 300C will seem like a big step down in essentially every category. The 300C pales even compared to an Accord!

RL06tech

BTW changing tack a little bit. I finally saw the new CTS. I must confess that the interior design, interior and exterior fit and finish are the best ever to come out of detroit. It looks modern and well assembled In the car I got to oggle I couldn't find a single mismatched line, runny paint or sample "finish" foible. Comming from GM, it was impressive indeed. It was without a doubt up to Honda levels. Of course I haven't driven it. Some drawbacks compared to the TL (its closest competitor from Honda) are tight seating in front, and a small rear seat. Other negatives are a relatively weak engine, (honda milks 25 additional ponies for the same size). But overall the car "looks" like a solid contender. We'll see how the new TL stacks up.

ram_g

With that last sentence, in particular, you're exposing the fact that you're responding with an emotional bias rather than objective data.

Soccer_playa1579

300c= poor mans wannabe bentley lol

F.Rizzo

Ram:
Thanks for the input. My first choice was the Jeep GC SRT-8, but it's my daily driver and the 11 MPG thing got me a little worried, that's why I found the 300 SRT-D with the 5.7 Hemi and the MDS. 425 HP has a lot of appeal to me! I drove a 300 SRT8 yesterday - my local dealer has a bunch on the lot.
What is your driving style an mileage? I need to reconsider the SRT Jeep.

Thanks again.

Soccer_playa1579

werent there problems with the jeep srt8's... I cant remember but i thought some one had mentioned something about it on the forums.. I think you should think economy wise as well. Living in los angeles must suck due to traffic , and having a guzzler wouldn't help ya. just a thought..

Ernie Golfs

In 2005 I looked at the CTS. The interior was real cramped. I'm 5' 6" tall and it was a chore to get in and out. I then looked at an STS which was a little larger but after four hour of dealing we couldn't reach a deal with the local dealer. I ended buying an 05 RL.

I hope Cadillac has addressed the interior size issue because my 06 TL has a lot more room then the previous CTS. BTW, I would compare the CTS to the TL not the RL. I've got a GM Master Card with over $2200 credit towards a new GM purchase but I really wouldn't consider a GM vehicle at this time after having two Acuras.

ram_g

I use the Jeep to commute ~35 miles each way in suburban Houston traffic; most of that on the freeway system, but it gets pretty clogged up in rush hour.

My wife would describe me as fast and aggressive...let's say I consider myself a defensive driver who believes that the best defense is a good offense!

I get about 13.2 to 13.5 mpg overall.

Sure, that kind of mileage is terrible compared to an RL, and as well CO2 emissions are roughly proportional to gasoline consumed. I figured that big, powerful, and thirsty V8s were going to be a dying breed, and I wanted to have that experience before they all went away...

synth19

I was caught in the rain in LA once and I seriously thought everyone drove worse then a blizzard here in chicago! LOL!!

F.Rizzo

Nice. Who would guess that you are 16 ?

Soccer_playa1579

Well i was just commenting. It has been called that by plenty of car enthusiasts, and was just voicing my opinion. No need for arguments here bro.. chilll

jftjr

They really *do* look like Bentleys, ya know.

lumpulus

Yeah, and with a name like "ram" you're not biased towards Chrysler?

F.Rizzo

It was a bad idea to ask this question here.
Looking at the responses most of them ARE emotional jabs rather than objective comments - which is what to expect whenever you ask about any other brand on any car message board. I should have known better.

I went to my Acura dealer yesterday - one of the largest in Los Angeles - and they only had 10 RL's in stock. One base and 9 Tech's (no CBMS) and my sales guy said "I dont think we are getting anymore - this is it".
I like mature designs, but I think the RL has one foot out the door.

neuronbob

Hey guys, keep it civil. Riz has some legitimate questions here.

As far as the "wanting the V8 gas guzzler experience once before they go away", I hear you. Those cars are going away in the next ten years because of CAFE, or if they don't, I'll bet the gas guzzler tax will be increased or expanded lower down the model ranges......

Mike_TX

Don't taze me, bro.

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Mike_TX

Chrysler 300's go to bed at night and dream that they'll one day grow up to be Bentleys.

But then they wake up in the morning, look in the mirror, and slash their wrists ... er, tires.

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lumpulus

Um, I was just responding to another poster. nothing more....If you read my first post in this thread you would see I was posting objectively, AND from personal experience.

It still makes me scratch my head why people that don't own Acuras(unless they are in the market for one) post here...I don't go to a Cadillac, BMW, MB, etc forum and post there, although I sometimes Build or price certain models on the manufacturer's sites just to see what the price will be.

Also, why would you be surprised to get people taking shots at other makes?
I think people are pretty tolerant here.