TSX69

Acura Rethinks Flagship w/ ZDX Moniker; RL Still Has its Place
By Christie Schweinsberg
WardsAuto.com, Aug 21, 2009 8:00 AM

ROCHESTER, MI – American Honda Motor Co. Inc.’s premium Acura brand says the RL sedan still has a place in its lineup, though monthly sales have fallen to a mere 100 units or so. However, executives now view the upcoming ZDX cross/utility vehicle as Acura’s ultimate luxury model, a top official tells Ward’s.

“Having a vehicle above (the) TL is a good position for us,” Gary Robinson, assistant manager-Acura product planning, says on the sidelines of a recent media event here. “Obviously, we wish it was more than 135 people that bought (RL) every month, but it’s a great car and we’re happy enough with (it) selling at a very small volume.” RL sales through July tumbled 62.6% to 1,192 from 3,191 year-ago, Ward’s data shows. The car steadily has been losing volume since its sales launch in 2004 as an ’05 model, when Acura targeted 20,000 annual deliveries. An extensive refresh last year was designed to lift sales but had little effect.

Still, the RL retains its buyer loyalty, Robinson says. With tooling costs mostly paid, keeping the car in the Acura lineup is financially sustainable. However, he does not say when a new RL is expected to arrive.

Recent comments by new Honda Motor Co. Ltd. CEO Takanobu Ito suggest Acura customers hoping for a competitor to BMW AG’s fullsize 7-Series sedan will have to keep waiting, as a rear-wheel-drive platform and V-8 engine no longer are part of the auto maker’s plans. While most car buyers and industry watchers consider large sedans as a brand’s superlative model, Acura is trying to change that perception with the upcoming ZDX.

The new 5-passenger CUV, which the auto maker is calling a “sport coupe,” is being billed as the brand’s most-luxurious, technology-laden model ever.

The all-new vehicle, which hits the U.S. market this winter, will get hand-stitched detailing on its leather-covered dashboard, door panels and center console. Light-emitting diodes will be used extensively in the cabin, and the “longest glass roof in the industry” will have dual automatic sunshades.

A 10-way power driver’s seat and 8-way power passenger seat are standard, as is a power tailgate and dual-zone, dual-mode automatic climate control.

Powering the ZDX will be Acura’s 3.7L V-6, already in the MDX CUV, making 300 hp and 270 lb.-ft. (366 Nm) of torque and mated to a 6-speed automatic transmission.

The ZDX also gets standard Acura’s Super-Handling All-Wheel-Drive. A new technology dubbed IDS, for Integrated Dynamics System, will be optional. IDS combines an active damper system, similar to that seen in the MDX, with speed-sensitive steering, allowing the driver to dial in preferred levels of sport or comfort, Acura says.

Despite the company’s assertion the ZDX will attract “an entirely new luxury customer to the Acura brand,” Robinson says the CUV likely will cull some customers who tire of the larger 7-seat MDX.

The ZDX presents them with the opportunity to have “something different in their garage,” he says. “There’s also going to be other people for whom it’s just a different type of vehicle…and they’re looking for something like that.”

Despite some negative online chatter about the unorthodox coupe/wagon/SUV appearance of the ZDX, Robinson says Acura is confident it captured the right design and is proud of the vehicle’s provocative nature.

“We tried to do something that was different and stylish and would be an exercise in design and styling and something new for us,” he says. “(The ZDX) is not meant to be a high-volume vehicle, so it’s fine if not everybody likes it.”

Robinson says, so far, he hasn’t received any negative feedback. “I might be fooling myself,” he admits. “I’ve been pleasantly surprised at how positive (the feedback) is.”

Acura says the ZDX, which is the first model to come out of the brand’s Torrance, CA, design studio from start to finish, will be priced between the MDX and RL. For ’10, the MDX begins at $40,990, while the RL starts at $46,830.

jhr3uva90

Well, the ZDX does address one big complaint many people had with the RL. Some argued that the RL's styling was too generic or plain. There's nothing generic looking about the ZDX. If anything, they might have taken the ZDX's design too far.

Also, by making the ZDX a hatchback CUV thingamajig, Acura doesn't have to worry about the ZDX overlapping with the TL the way the RL does.

So, does that make the ZDX the new flagship? Personally, I don't think the ZDX or RL could be considered a flagship. To me, a flagship is a full-sized sedan, preferably with at least the option of a powerful V8 engine.

BigKat103

I think this is part hype, part wishful thinking. I see the ZDX as a niche product. I would have a hard time as a buyer passing on the MDX for a ZDX based on the features of each package being virtually identical and the MDX likely being a bit less expensive. You get much more versatility and room with the MDX. If anything they will draw in new buyers and possibly hurt MDX sales a bit (if possible). Looking forward to checking it out, but so far I am skeptical.

The RL is not even on Acura's radar anymore. Shame really, what a fantastic machine.

jhr3uva90

Of course the ZDX is a niche product. So is the RL. I have a 2005 RL and enjoy it, but did any really think the RL was going to be a huge seller? The RL's most distinctive feature, SH-AWD, is one that most people don't understand or appreciate, including some Acura sales people. Anything Acura provides other than the TSX (Japanese Accord), TL, and MDX will probably be doomed to limited sales.

DandyG23

Besides the salesman know the new RL sales are down but they have to realize the last generation RL is doing a little better these days because most people can afford them.

jhr3uva90

Huh?

PortlandRL

I can't see how the RL could be considered a 'niche' vehicle when it is supposed to compete with the Lexus LS. That car hardly falls into a niche category. Sure it appeals to folks with some money in the bank but hardly a unique vehicle or one that appeals to only a certain demographic.

LuvMyTSX

While the RL is a fantastic vehicle, its failure to compete with its intended market does not make it a niche vehicle. All that says is that it failed to do what it was supposed to do. It just doesn't have the size, options, or brand prestige that its competition has.

I also find it sad and disturbing that Acura is seemingly satisfied with the low selling rate of the RL. This pretty much means they have no intentions of making any improvements and will let it flounder. That's depressing.

Acura is also clearly missing the disappointment (and outright rage in some cases) with the new grille. They obviously don't want to listen to anyone's opinions about the grille and will keep trying to force it down people's throats, when clearly they don't like it, because they are taking their business elsewhere. Their inability to take constructive criticism and make the appropriate changes is going to cause them a lot of grief, IMO.

jhr3uva90

What was the RL supposed to do? Acura didn't want the car. According to the Wall Street Journal, Honda Motor Corporation in Japan proposed the design to Acura of North America. They rejected the design, so HMC used it for the Honda Legend. Personally, I think the only reason why Acura even sells the RL is because HMC forces them to. That's why Acura never really promoted the RL adequately, in my opinion. The new TL and the upcoming ZDX are the cars Acura REALLY wants.

And as far as competing with the Lexus LS: does anyone really think a mid-sized sedan with a V6 engine that shares a platform with every other Acura sedan and the Honda Accord was meant to compete with a full-sized car with a V8 engine with hybrid and long wheel base options? Really?

TSX69

I always take what Acura reps say w/ a grain of salt as I assume that they have been beaten down into a defeatist situation.

My guess is that Acura would love for the RL to go RWD & have a v8 but Honda is preventing them. So what else can they do but try to put a positive spin on the situation? I highly doubt that an employee is going to say "The RL sucks & needs vast improvements & we are highly disappointed in its sales".

It is great that Honda is able to stay profitable in times like these but sometimes they gotta take risks. I mean they built the NSX ... can they not find the $ to let the RL grow some?

jhr3uva90

Acura is taking risks by releasing the ZDX, a car that's neither fish nor fowl.

123456SPEED

If Acura didn't want the current RL, neglected the first RL, dropped the NSX, and before that the loved Legend, you wonder if they have a plan at all. how are people supposed to know a brand if it has no identity.

I still want an RL but the odd ZDX actually is making some sense to me. As a coupe lover who is getting older, wants luxury, and a way to haul a few things around is great too. having an aversion to 4 doors, makes the ZDX look more appealing too than a straight sedan. hmm. just depends how goofy it looks in person.

buzzmag

ZDX. Just another ugly crossover.

123456SPEED

A lot of people say the ZDX interior is the best ever from Acura...from the pix I don't see it. I counted over 22 controls on the steering wheel, who has time to steer?

I love the RL interior. It's sublime

neuronbob

What. The. Fsck. just happened here? Acura is considering the ZDX their top of the line model? Execs have received no negative feedback on it? They are happy with the RL at low volume? Wha? Gimme somadat stuff they are smoking.

but they obviously have better marketing information than we have access to to make those decisions.

123456SPEED

Confused, their marketing sheet shows it positioned pricewise between the RL and MDX. Can they call it top of the line yet price it less than RL?

LuvMyTSX

I wondered that as well.

TampaRLX-SH

Dealers will call it 'top of the line' to create sales excitement. Likewise many dealers will push a TL over an RL because it is not about the car or the customer. It is too often about the sale.

If a dealer or rep feels hyping a car or it's position in the brand line up will close the sale...consider it done. Similarly most dealers will hawk the best seller as the best of the brand.

We all know better. The RL is still the Acura flagship sedan. The LEGEND is the Honda flagship sedan.

*Last day in London and driving a 2009 Accord diesel (TSX)....schweeet!*

2007AcuraRL

Absolutely foolhardy if Acura considers a crossover niche SUV to be its flagship vehicle. How about making a flagship sedan that people want to buy? These guys are so out to lunch its pathetic.

jhr3uva90

People don't want to buy any Acura with a base price in the same range as the 7 Series BMW or an S-Class Mercedes. Why? Because the general public does NOT perceive Acura to be a luxury brand. A true flagship with an Acura brand will probably sell as well as the VW Phaeton did.

PortlandRL

That is why I am such a fan of Hyundai's policies. When the Santa Fe first came out, people had a list of complaints and suggestions and in 2003, they implemented them; more power, lit glovebox, optional sunroof, gas struts for the hood, etc. etc.

I would not buy a new Acura if you paid me.

CadiGTi

Tampa RL: Please give us a report on driving impressions of the diesel TSX!

TampaRLX-SH

At risk of once again falling victim to the moderator gauntlet (and Ken's firepower) I will try to be brief and not intend to hijack the thread.

I love the diesel Accord (TSX). Let me repeat. I LOVE it. And the Accord has a LEGEND like grille with simple chrome crossbars (and H logo). It is a large vehicle in Europe and I have to say I like it more than my previous 05 TL. It is built better than the TL and size wise feels the same. Here is the kicker. 4 cylinder power is not an issue when you have diesel torque. It feels substantial, powerful and solid. Further, the engine sound is wonderful. There is no smell, none, nadda. Even the buses and commercial trucks here are clean and don't choke you to death. We Americans are fools for not adopting green diesel in our infrastructure and our commercial vehicle diesels are archaic pollutanters. I drove a new Audi A6 TDI in Germany to Berlin....it was the 1st car that made me consider over my RL. But the Accord (TSX) is 1/2 the cost and nearly as luxurious if not built as solid. PLUS I averaged 50+ mpg. Even at $6 per gallon it was worth it.

Europe has a few things over Americans....energy sensibility. Windmills are everywhere and very elegant IMHO. And green diesel infrastructure in the road towards electric, hydrogen fuel cells and alternate energy sources is a sensible interim while fossil fuel is still our primary energy source. The US is try to jump directly from fossil fuel to alternate greener energy. It will be a more difficult transition. I blame oil company lobbyists and ignorance to current diesel technology.

If / when I replace my RL, I don't expect alternate fueled vehicles to be the mainstream, but I will certainly consider a green diesel for the torque, durability, clean factor and efficiency. Audi, VW and Mercedes will be the brands on my radar.

For me, it is not about top HP as much as how the power is obtained. The V6 TSX will likely be Acura's newest star vehicle, but what a shame the green diesel will not make it to the USA....I might buy one.

*Greetings from Edinburgh*

PortlandRL

This country is so bass-ackwards and stubborn it's not even funny. The Europeans have it right 100% while Americans think they have it right but they don't..."Oh look a new light rail line. Our energy crisis is over!"

jhr3uva90

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Europe have light rail or some other forms of mass transit? And actually, light rail has worked well for decades in cities like New York, DC, and San Francisco. I think more major U.S. cities should concentrate on increasing population density so that light rail can become practical.

That being said, I think that we Americans truly need to be educated on diesel and bio-diesel. Too many of us equate diesel with big, loud, smokey trucks. I think BMW is taking steps to start educating us with commercials.

LuvMyTSX

Before Acura canceled the diesel TSX, I was so excited and intent on buying one. I could not wait for it to be released. I was incredibly disappointed when they decided to shelve it for the US.

Audi and BMW have done a couple commercials to try to re-educate people on clean diesels, but I doubt they have had much impact. I really wish people would wisen up and see that the new diesels are nothing like the old ones from years ago.

It's really unfortunate that Acura has gone away from diesel technology. It could be really useful in all their vehicles, particularly the SUVs. IMO it is a much better option than hybrid technology.

TampaRLX-SH

The few people I chatted with in my European & Russian Tour were impressed with the LEGEND. It is a large car to them, and very wide. The roads here are VERY narrow, lanes are miniscule with roundabouts and brick or rock walls flanking the roadways. No shoulders. Try navigating that with a wide car and a tour bus alongside. Even the Accord (TSX) was a challenge (as noted on the side mirror scrapes. )

But the biggest gripe was not the LEGEND's size, the 5 speed tranny or even the back seat (heck, most thought the LEGEND was limo-like). It was the lack of a diesel engine. One Honda savy chap I chatted with thought a diesel in the LEGEND would not only offer high 30s mpg but also the additional torque for which Honda is criticized. Most like the LEGEND....but admit it is a rare car.

The second criticism I heard was it was too much car (and price) for a Honda. That I knew.

But most every 'luxo' car I came across was a small V6 diesel, or a TDI. Most every Audi, Mercedes or BMW, with the exception of the highest S Class, & series, A8 or exotics, the majority of these cars were under 275HP and nearly all got 30+ MPG. These are the 'luxury' cars so common in Europe, and some with turbo 4s.

LuvMyTSX

Yup, I remember from my many trips to Europe that a lot of the cars are diesels. Even my parents had 2 diesels while they lived in Belgium for 4 years (VW Polo and Opel Astra). Accords were quite rare there - I saw only a handful - and never once a Legend. I traveled to Belgium, France, The Netherlands, Germany, Luxembourg, Italy, and Spain. The roads are indeed extremely narrow. I was scared to death in the car driving along the Amalfi coast. Talk about a tiny road - and very curvy with no guardrails and a huge drop from the cliffs to the ocean.

CadiGTi

From Automotive News (today):

RL: As recently as last summer, dealers had been promised a V-8-powered, rwd flagship for the 2011 model year. But the program was halted by Honda President Takanobu Ito as part of the company's cost cutting. The rwd program has been pushed back to 2015 at the earliest. Instead, a re-engineering of the existing RL's front-wheel-drive V-6 platform is scheduled for the 2011 model year.

CadiGTi

Thanks Tampa RL for the Diesel experience write-up.

After driving friend's Jetta TDi's and loving it, I can fully appreciate how well the Honda diesel could have been on this side of the pond. Driving 50k-60k miles annually, the Honda/Acura diesel would be the perfect car for me. So sad the administration does not favor clean diesel technology......maybe one day down the road.

Ed

jftjr

The ZDX as their flagship? They're clearly on crack. I didn't think they could make a vehicle uglier than the new TL... but they did... it looks like a TL humped an Aztek, and gave birth to that abortion.

Hey kids -- here's a tip -- try making a product that people want, then *marketing* your product. If Hyundai can successfully put out a legitimate flagship, Acura certainly can.

TampaRLX-SH

I think Acura is just taking stabs at trying to find an identity through styling.

And like a rebellious teenager trying to separate himself from conservative parents, they are going to extremes to find that identity and separate from the Honda nagging. It stands out in the crowd, but so does a spiked haired, tongue pierced, tattooed covered teenager.

Problem is, that styling typically appeals to Civic tuners, Integra racers and RSX loyalists. For those looking for a car north of $35K, it comes across as juvenile and unsophisticated. At least that is who it impacts me.

Now if they could marry the pleasantry of the interiors with harmonious exteriors, I think they would have a match. It is the shoe that dropped. Acura has rock solid Honda engineering, leading edge technology packaging and punk styling.

Instead of running from the Honda parent, Acura may someday grow up and embrace it while offering upmarket styling that aligns to those who typically afford this price point.

On the mean time, I fear Acura's interpretation of the RL may come to us in the form of a 50 year old MIT professor wearing ass sagging jeans, nose & eyebrow piercings, a tattoo of a popular energy drink logo and listening to a driving techno beat tune on a lime green Ipod. It should sell like hotcakes.

*Greetings from Glasgow*

CadiGTi

Very well put and I am on the same page as you. I purchased brand new Honda Accords 20+ years ago. When I wanted an inexpensive boy racer/fun to drive hot hatch to drive on weekends, I purchased a new VW GTi 6 speed 2 years ago for that.

For my road warrior 50k+ mile/year business sedan I do not want to spend $40+ thousand on a vehicle that I cannot warm up to its shocking punk looks and downgraded interior (new Gen TL).

I can only hope that Acura shows some mercy when the next RL comes around and they do not cut costs on the interior as they have with the new TL. I test drove a 2009 TL SHAWD and also had a new one as a loaner on my last service visit. The past TL had a great exterior and interior.
Acura has replaced the padded fold out door panel map pockets on the past Gen TL with Cheap Hard Fixed plastic map pockets just like the door panels on a $13k Kia.....real nice touch as so are the hard plastic interior door pulls. The dashboard in the TL looks a lot like the Accord dash, lots of cheap plastic. I honestly believe that the interior of my 1991 Accord had better materials and design than the new Accord and TL.

Maybe since the RL is targeted to a more mature audience the new design will be more appealing and less "severe" than the other Acuras. If not, there are plenty of CPO late model Lexus LS460's around here. I would prefer the Audi over the Lexus, but the dealer service and reliability would not make the grade.

One positive note on the new TL, it really does drive well and the engine has lots of torque.........and I hear the new short throw 6 speed blows away the automatic in spirited handling.........Maybe they can offer a short throw 6 speed "S" model RL????

jhr3uva90

Acura tried that approach (against their will) with the current Acura RL. Although I own a 2005 RL, I must acknowledge that the RL is a sales failure.

Many luxury brands are moving away from staid, boring designs. As much as people complained about Bangle's work for BMW, those radical designs did become templates that other brands have imitated. Many people complained about Audi's oversized grill when it debuted, but now it is an identifying look for them. Even Lexus and Mercedes are slowly attempting less conservative designs. Times change, customers change, and Acura's styling had to change. The more different Acura-branded cars look from other Hondas, the better for the brand.

TampaRLX-SH

Acura did not design the 2nd Gen RL. Honda did. Acura simply rebadged it, changed the grille and made some content changes for North America. I love it, sales failure or not.

But what has Acura designed? The 3rd Gen TL was a home run. The TSX is nice, but is a Honda designed Accord. All else, including the power plenum to the RL are either pop flies, foul balls or in the wrong ball park, IMHO. The new TL is an exterior debacle. The MDX and RDX are not bad, but not on my list. The ZDX looks awkward to me, especially in the overhangs. All else, including the power plenum to the RL are either pop flies, foul balls or in the wrong ball park, IMHO. Conservative is not the issue with Acura designs....taste is.

Not to say Honda designs are always better. The new CrossTour is a Wilde Beast of car design.

ABboy

I think Honda should have developed a V8 for the new NSX instead of the V10. At least then they could offer a de-tuned version in the next gen. RL. A longitudinal mounted V8 with optional AWD and a hybred option with electric power boost like in F1 for passing. Instead they will try to compete in a class of cars that demand V8's producing ~400hp. exp: lexus IS F, Cadillac CTS-V, BMW (even the 3 series M= 430hp) But hey just a thought. A V10 exclusive for the NSX seems like a watse.

jhr3uva90

It is too bad Acura's new California design studio started churning out products just as we entered this massive recession. I guess we'll have to wait until the economy turns around to discover whether Acura's sales problems are because of their new designs.

CL6

With so few selling it sure isn't going anywhere... and fast. It could sell if it was better looking. Too bad because I like the RL a lot and always have.

jftjr

Exactly. You can have style without being ugly -- look at the new Caddys... their styling is certainly different than anything out there, but they at least look like upmarket cars. Same with BMW's... the "Bangle Butt" was controversial, but it didn't make small children throw seizures.

The current crop of Acuras, however, are uniformly horrible looking. Sticking a schnozz on all your cars might create brand identity... but if it's ugly, it's perhaps not the brand identity you'd want to have.

I'd have bought a new TL in a heartbeat -- I loved the way it drove, but my wife, who's an artist and interior designer, said simply "No way."

Then someone across the street from us bought one, and worse yet, parks it nose-out in the driveway... so we still have to look at it.

Wii60

Let's not forget that the RL has the heaviest implementation of SH-AWD. It would be unsafe for an SUV to take that without significant anti-tilt measures.

If you know how to use it, SH-AWD is a dream, and no car has it quite like the RL. It still matches well with the competition tech wise, and even on a V-6, it gets to high speeds very quickly.

The problem is that people don't know how to use the car like we do. If this car didn't have the voice commands, SH-AWD, and other little things that only a true RL owner uses daily I wouldn't love it like I do. People just don't know what they're getting.

As is, it's very unique. I for one, love the styling. It's very aggressive from the front and won't be obsolete for a very long time. It's high tech. It's bigger than an ES but not as big as an LS. It's more like a "crossover" full sized sedan. The fact is, it's the kind of car that should be selling in these numbers. It's become the niche vehicle we all love. For that reason, I love how I never see any more on the road, and if Acura is still making money off of it, why not keep it this way?

But lose the grill. Seriously.