2008 Acura Rl
08-13-2006, 09:44 PM
#82
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by jhr3uva90
Here's the problem: Acura needs a real flagship. Until then, people will put unfair expectations on the RL. The RL is too small? Have you checked the size of the BMW 5 series, Lexus GS, Infiniti M and other competitors? They are all roughly the same size (although the BMW and Lexus are slightly smaller). Not enough power? Do any of the competing V6's have more power?
If designers in North America designed the RL, it would sell very well -- IN NORTH AMERICA. Could someone please tell me what other North American-designed cars sell well overseas? Do Europeans, for example, really appreciate the American aesthetic when it comes to cars? Do the Japanese?
I've said it before and I'll say it again, people judge the RL unfairly because it is an ACURA. If it were another brand, particularly a brand with a true full-sized flagship, many of these negative comments would not be made.
And if a person can do without the SH-AWD or the gadgets, why did he get an RL? And if he got an RL, why complain about it after the fact? Gadgets and SH-AWD are the main reasons for driving the RL.
If designers in North America designed the RL, it would sell very well -- IN NORTH AMERICA. Could someone please tell me what other North American-designed cars sell well overseas? Do Europeans, for example, really appreciate the American aesthetic when it comes to cars? Do the Japanese?
I've said it before and I'll say it again, people judge the RL unfairly because it is an ACURA. If it were another brand, particularly a brand with a true full-sized flagship, many of these negative comments would not be made.
And if a person can do without the SH-AWD or the gadgets, why did he get an RL? And if he got an RL, why complain about it after the fact? Gadgets and SH-AWD are the main reasons for driving the RL.
08-13-2006, 09:49 PM
#83
2012 Cadillac CTS-V Coupe
Originally Posted by jhr3uva90
Here's the problem: Acura needs a real flagship. Until then, people will put unfair expectations on the RL. The RL is too small? Have you checked the size of the BMW 5 series, Lexus GS, Infiniti M and other competitors? They are all roughly the same size (although the BMW and Lexus are slightly smaller). Not enough power? Do any of the competing V6's have more power?
If designers in North America designed the RL, it would sell very well -- IN NORTH AMERICA. Could someone please tell me what other North American-designed cars sell well overseas? Do Europeans, for example, really appreciate the American aesthetic when it comes to cars? Do the Japanese?
I've said it before and I'll say it again, people judge the RL unfairly because it is an ACURA. If it were another brand, particularly a brand with a true full-sized flagship, many of these negative comments would not be made.
And if a person can do without the SH-AWD or the gadgets, why did he get an RL? And if he got an RL, why complain about it after the fact? Gadgets and SH-AWD are the main reasons for driving the RL.
If designers in North America designed the RL, it would sell very well -- IN NORTH AMERICA. Could someone please tell me what other North American-designed cars sell well overseas? Do Europeans, for example, really appreciate the American aesthetic when it comes to cars? Do the Japanese?
I've said it before and I'll say it again, people judge the RL unfairly because it is an ACURA. If it were another brand, particularly a brand with a true full-sized flagship, many of these negative comments would not be made.
And if a person can do without the SH-AWD or the gadgets, why did he get an RL? And if he got an RL, why complain about it after the fact? Gadgets and SH-AWD are the main reasons for driving the RL.
.. and right ont about the SH-AWD and other gadgets. Once you take all of that stuff away, don't you essentially have a TL?
08-13-2006, 10:51 PM
#84
Three Wheelin'
I own an RL, not lease, although I don't have anything against leasing.
The RL doesn't need to be full-sized, but I think Acura does need a full-sized car above the RL. I believe this is a necessity so that customers and media organizations like Forbes can stop comparing a mid-sized car to full-sized cars and then complaining that the car is too small.
Also, the RL really is larger than the TL, although not by much. Perhaps the problem isn't that the RL is too small, but that the TL is a little too big for its class? That might be part of the reason why its compeitors such as the Lexus IS, Infiniti G35, and the legendary BMW 3 Series tend to out-perform it.
Speaking of the TL's compeition, after renting an Infiniti G35 during Labor Day weekend 2004, I had decided that I would not get another FWD sedan. So basically, I had a choice: buy an RL or don't buy an Acura.
I guess TL drivers generally don't mind unrefined acceleration with torque steer. I do. I had a 2001 CL Type S for 3 years and the torque steer really bothered me. When I test drove the 2004 TL, I experienced the same torque steer problem. Now Acura's going to release a FWD TL with the same torque and HP as an RL? Great. That's really nice. Now people can really experience the joy of fighting their steering wheels!
Okay, so the RL takes an extra .5 second to go from 0 to 60 mph. Does that really matter? I think it is a problem of PERCEPTION, not REALITY. The RL accelerates quickly, but smoothly. The lack of torque steer helps with that smooth acceleration. In my opinion, the RL accelerates more like a Lexus than an Acura.
Anyway, the RL is an excellent car and I absolutely love it. I even drove it 2800 miles from Northern VA to San Francisco. It's almost too bad that it's an Acura though. I'm positive it would sell better under any other brand. I don't think Acura corporate promotes it adequately, I think the dealerships are GENERALLY doing an inadquate job selling the RL (or even knowing how the car works), and I think Acura customers in general are Acura customer because they want VALUE, meaning as many features as possible for the money. They don't generally care about details, they don't generally care about refinement, they don't generally care about cool new engineering. If they did, they would have more respect for the RL, or they would drive another brand of car.
The RL doesn't need to be full-sized, but I think Acura does need a full-sized car above the RL. I believe this is a necessity so that customers and media organizations like Forbes can stop comparing a mid-sized car to full-sized cars and then complaining that the car is too small.
Also, the RL really is larger than the TL, although not by much. Perhaps the problem isn't that the RL is too small, but that the TL is a little too big for its class? That might be part of the reason why its compeitors such as the Lexus IS, Infiniti G35, and the legendary BMW 3 Series tend to out-perform it.
Speaking of the TL's compeition, after renting an Infiniti G35 during Labor Day weekend 2004, I had decided that I would not get another FWD sedan. So basically, I had a choice: buy an RL or don't buy an Acura.
I guess TL drivers generally don't mind unrefined acceleration with torque steer. I do. I had a 2001 CL Type S for 3 years and the torque steer really bothered me. When I test drove the 2004 TL, I experienced the same torque steer problem. Now Acura's going to release a FWD TL with the same torque and HP as an RL? Great. That's really nice. Now people can really experience the joy of fighting their steering wheels!
Okay, so the RL takes an extra .5 second to go from 0 to 60 mph. Does that really matter? I think it is a problem of PERCEPTION, not REALITY. The RL accelerates quickly, but smoothly. The lack of torque steer helps with that smooth acceleration. In my opinion, the RL accelerates more like a Lexus than an Acura.
Anyway, the RL is an excellent car and I absolutely love it. I even drove it 2800 miles from Northern VA to San Francisco. It's almost too bad that it's an Acura though. I'm positive it would sell better under any other brand. I don't think Acura corporate promotes it adequately, I think the dealerships are GENERALLY doing an inadquate job selling the RL (or even knowing how the car works), and I think Acura customers in general are Acura customer because they want VALUE, meaning as many features as possible for the money. They don't generally care about details, they don't generally care about refinement, they don't generally care about cool new engineering. If they did, they would have more respect for the RL, or they would drive another brand of car.
08-13-2006, 11:33 PM
#85
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Brand awareness:
Infiniti lost it (they actually never had a firm grasp of it - the original Q45 commercial from 1990 plagued them for 13 years) until the G35, M and FX. Lexus better watch their back.
Acura lost it in 1994 when the dropped the Legend for the RL. Things went further south when they didn't truly support the NSX. Acura is still lost. The TL, RSX have done well for them. But what defines Acura? SH-AWD won't do it and neither will having cars with more electronics then the competition. Those buying a $25K car will be impressed with the gizmos. Affluent buyers want to drive a status symbol that's reliable and makes a statement.
What defines Subaru from Toyota, Nissan and just about all others? Four-wheel drive. Kudos to Subaru for making a niche for themselves.
Pontiac: Someone stated that if the RL came from someone other then Acura, it might command respect. That reminds me of the Pontiac Azteck. Would it have done better if it came from Toyota? Doubful because Toyota would never had produced such drek. Honda Element. It would have failed miserably if it came from any of the domestics (and the Element isn't all that great). Lutz has the right idea (if he lives long enough to see it through). Make Pontiac the sports division it once was circa 1964-1970.
Cadillac: They have done well for themselves the past few years. They lost the moniker of thee luxury car all should aspire to buy when they went fwd in 1977. Since 1998-1999 when the previous generation STS appeared, they have made a slow comeback. Once they get away from the fwd platform, they will have 4-5 strong segments that compete well with BMW, Lexus and MB (the STS is almost there).
Ford: Oy vey! Their only help is middle America and trying to corner the $30-$50K annual income family. They need to develop a niche for themsleves or Chevrolet will slowly erode their customer base.
Buick: Look at Cadillac. Get away from fwd, go back and equip their cars with supercharged engines (the best kept but rarely utilized secret for V8 performance in a 6 cylinder package) and chase after high-end Nissan cars and lower end Infinit and Lexus models. Supercharged engines is a nice niche that they should expand on.
Thanks for listening (or reading).
Infiniti lost it (they actually never had a firm grasp of it - the original Q45 commercial from 1990 plagued them for 13 years) until the G35, M and FX. Lexus better watch their back.
Acura lost it in 1994 when the dropped the Legend for the RL. Things went further south when they didn't truly support the NSX. Acura is still lost. The TL, RSX have done well for them. But what defines Acura? SH-AWD won't do it and neither will having cars with more electronics then the competition. Those buying a $25K car will be impressed with the gizmos. Affluent buyers want to drive a status symbol that's reliable and makes a statement.
What defines Subaru from Toyota, Nissan and just about all others? Four-wheel drive. Kudos to Subaru for making a niche for themselves.
Pontiac: Someone stated that if the RL came from someone other then Acura, it might command respect. That reminds me of the Pontiac Azteck. Would it have done better if it came from Toyota? Doubful because Toyota would never had produced such drek. Honda Element. It would have failed miserably if it came from any of the domestics (and the Element isn't all that great). Lutz has the right idea (if he lives long enough to see it through). Make Pontiac the sports division it once was circa 1964-1970.
Cadillac: They have done well for themselves the past few years. They lost the moniker of thee luxury car all should aspire to buy when they went fwd in 1977. Since 1998-1999 when the previous generation STS appeared, they have made a slow comeback. Once they get away from the fwd platform, they will have 4-5 strong segments that compete well with BMW, Lexus and MB (the STS is almost there).
Ford: Oy vey! Their only help is middle America and trying to corner the $30-$50K annual income family. They need to develop a niche for themsleves or Chevrolet will slowly erode their customer base.
Buick: Look at Cadillac. Get away from fwd, go back and equip their cars with supercharged engines (the best kept but rarely utilized secret for V8 performance in a 6 cylinder package) and chase after high-end Nissan cars and lower end Infinit and Lexus models. Supercharged engines is a nice niche that they should expand on.
Thanks for listening (or reading).
08-14-2006, 12:18 AM
#86
Three Wheelin'
Good brand assessment. Acura does outsell Infiniti, though. Also, I don't think ANYTHING can save Buick, because the general public associates the brand with old folks. Any sane company would shut Buick down, in my opinion.
08-14-2006, 12:34 AM
#87
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Originally Posted by Tully44
Brand awareness:
Infiniti lost it (they actually never had a firm grasp of it - the original Q45 commercial from 1990 plagued them for 13 years) until the G35, M and FX. Lexus better watch their back.
Acura lost it in 1994 when the dropped the Legend for the RL. Things went further south when they didn't truly support the NSX. Acura is still lost. The TL, RSX have done well for them. But what defines Acura? SH-AWD won't do it and neither will having cars with more electronics then the competition. Those buying a $25K car will be impressed with the gizmos. Affluent buyers want to drive a status symbol that's reliable and makes a statement.
What defines Subaru from Toyota, Nissan and just about all others? Four-wheel drive. Kudos to Subaru for making a niche for themselves.
Pontiac: Someone stated that if the RL came from someone other then Acura, it might command respect. That reminds me of the Pontiac Azteck. Would it have done better if it came from Toyota? Doubful because Toyota would never had produced such drek. Honda Element. It would have failed miserably if it came from any of the domestics (and the Element isn't all that great). Lutz has the right idea (if he lives long enough to see it through). Make Pontiac the sports division it once was circa 1964-1970.
Cadillac: They have done well for themselves the past few years. They lost the moniker of thee luxury car all should aspire to buy when they went fwd in 1977. Since 1998-1999 when the previous generation STS appeared, they have made a slow comeback. Once they get away from the fwd platform, they will have 4-5 strong segments that compete well with BMW, Lexus and MB (the STS is almost there).
Ford: Oy vey! Their only help is middle America and trying to corner the $30-$50K annual income family. They need to develop a niche for themsleves or Chevrolet will slowly erode their customer base.
Buick: Look at Cadillac. Get away from fwd, go back and equip their cars with supercharged engines (the best kept but rarely utilized secret for V8 performance in a 6 cylinder package) and chase after high-end Nissan cars and lower end Infinit and Lexus models. Supercharged engines is a nice niche that they should expand on.
Thanks for listening (or reading).
Infiniti lost it (they actually never had a firm grasp of it - the original Q45 commercial from 1990 plagued them for 13 years) until the G35, M and FX. Lexus better watch their back.
Acura lost it in 1994 when the dropped the Legend for the RL. Things went further south when they didn't truly support the NSX. Acura is still lost. The TL, RSX have done well for them. But what defines Acura? SH-AWD won't do it and neither will having cars with more electronics then the competition. Those buying a $25K car will be impressed with the gizmos. Affluent buyers want to drive a status symbol that's reliable and makes a statement.
What defines Subaru from Toyota, Nissan and just about all others? Four-wheel drive. Kudos to Subaru for making a niche for themselves.
Pontiac: Someone stated that if the RL came from someone other then Acura, it might command respect. That reminds me of the Pontiac Azteck. Would it have done better if it came from Toyota? Doubful because Toyota would never had produced such drek. Honda Element. It would have failed miserably if it came from any of the domestics (and the Element isn't all that great). Lutz has the right idea (if he lives long enough to see it through). Make Pontiac the sports division it once was circa 1964-1970.
Cadillac: They have done well for themselves the past few years. They lost the moniker of thee luxury car all should aspire to buy when they went fwd in 1977. Since 1998-1999 when the previous generation STS appeared, they have made a slow comeback. Once they get away from the fwd platform, they will have 4-5 strong segments that compete well with BMW, Lexus and MB (the STS is almost there).
Ford: Oy vey! Their only help is middle America and trying to corner the $30-$50K annual income family. They need to develop a niche for themsleves or Chevrolet will slowly erode their customer base.
Buick: Look at Cadillac. Get away from fwd, go back and equip their cars with supercharged engines (the best kept but rarely utilized secret for V8 performance in a 6 cylinder package) and chase after high-end Nissan cars and lower end Infinit and Lexus models. Supercharged engines is a nice niche that they should expand on.
Thanks for listening (or reading).
Lexus doesn't need to watch it's back with either Acura or Infiniti. Not in the high end market. Lexus, BMW and Benz MUST watch their back however, for their lower end cars.
BMW 3 still reigns...but look how fast Infiniti came and nearly dethrowned it. Then Lexus tried again. And believe it or not, (yeah yeah, past), but the 2002 TL-S has been the only one so far to dethrown BMW of it's benchmark.
That's correct. Acura has been the only one to do that. But AS EXPECTED, they lost it and never got it back.
Considering Infiniti and Acura, are both first and second, when it came to their sport luxury sedans. (M45 and RL), they both knocked out, Lexus, Audi, Mercedes, BMW, and Jaguar. Not bad for two companies with a lesser nameplate than the other five.
I agree that if the RL came from another company, unless it had a V8, it probably wasn't getting looked at. Although a V8 would probably have less buyers, people would go for the more opted V6. But as i said in numerous places...V8 will come, along with a new line up i'm sure. Leaves more doors open.
I DO NOT agree that a Turbo Six competes with a V8 in the SENSE of prestigue. I don't want my BMW 7 to have a turbo six over a V8. A turbo six is fast, yes, but it doesn't command the respect. A Turbo belongs in a sports car/supercar even, not in a LUXURY sedan. There's nothing luxurious about a small engine producing power. Otherwise the Mistu Evo would be quite luxurious, don't you think?
If you're buying a luxury car, get the engine to match.
08-14-2006, 12:56 AM
#88
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Has Acura learned from the lessons of the past? That is the 100,000 dollar question. Yes they let the RL fester for too long and ignored the NSX. I'd love to know why they did what they did but oh well.
I still hold on to the belief that Acura is well aware of the RL's issues and for the time being they are stuck trying to make the product work. Maybe the dedicated design studio will help. Maybe with Acura going global then we will start seeing some better ideas.
To briefly reply to the TL being too big compared to the competition, well the TL's issue is that there is only so much power you can send to the front wheels and FWD has it's handling limitations. The 3 series is almost perfectly balanced. The TL is too front heavy since the motor sits in front of the axle. Yet the TL sells because dollar for dollar it is a great car.
I've driven the 530xi and I will tell you the RL was way more fun to drive. The 5 with XDrive is way to sluggish for my tastes.
As for the RL being the same size as most cars in it's class. Well, I am 6',2.5" and had more head room in the 5, M, and GS then in the Acura. In fact I still could have raised my seat more in the 5 with headroom aplenty. Leg room was and is far better in the M as after I adjusted the driver's seat for my comfort I sat in the back and power reclined the seat and still had leg and knee room. So yea on the out side the RL is competitive but on the inside it is too small.
Mybe the RL does need a V8 as well as the V6. I can say that it does need a new and better wheel design.
Anyway this year is a wash so we have the MMC to see if Acura will invest 10 million or so to make some changes like Honda did with the Accord's rear end.
I still hold on to the belief that Acura is well aware of the RL's issues and for the time being they are stuck trying to make the product work. Maybe the dedicated design studio will help. Maybe with Acura going global then we will start seeing some better ideas.
To briefly reply to the TL being too big compared to the competition, well the TL's issue is that there is only so much power you can send to the front wheels and FWD has it's handling limitations. The 3 series is almost perfectly balanced. The TL is too front heavy since the motor sits in front of the axle. Yet the TL sells because dollar for dollar it is a great car.
I've driven the 530xi and I will tell you the RL was way more fun to drive. The 5 with XDrive is way to sluggish for my tastes.
As for the RL being the same size as most cars in it's class. Well, I am 6',2.5" and had more head room in the 5, M, and GS then in the Acura. In fact I still could have raised my seat more in the 5 with headroom aplenty. Leg room was and is far better in the M as after I adjusted the driver's seat for my comfort I sat in the back and power reclined the seat and still had leg and knee room. So yea on the out side the RL is competitive but on the inside it is too small.
Mybe the RL does need a V8 as well as the V6. I can say that it does need a new and better wheel design.
Anyway this year is a wash so we have the MMC to see if Acura will invest 10 million or so to make some changes like Honda did with the Accord's rear end.
08-14-2006, 01:39 AM
#89
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Yes I was misled. However what shocks me most is that the ACE body structure is nothing more than a re-worked Accord with a different front end. Shocking indeed. I had the impression that the entire RL was engineered from the ground up with the ACE structure in mind. Now that I know this is not the case my opinion of the RL has diminished further. But I am glad to know the truth. Thank you for pointing it out to me.
Originally Posted by mrdeeno
understandable...considering that during the RL intro, somone asked if the RL was based on the same platform as the Accord. Dick colliver answered that it's based on a separate platform.
i'm sure it's a marketing thing...they don't want people who are unfamiliar with platforms/chassis to think a $50k car is built on the same platform as an accord.
i'm sure it's a marketing thing...they don't want people who are unfamiliar with platforms/chassis to think a $50k car is built on the same platform as an accord.
08-14-2006, 07:13 AM
#90
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^^ I wouldn't worry about the RL having ACE but still being built on a common platform as a car without ACE. It pretty much was a re-engineering of the front end with different materials and configurations so that it better absorbs impact forces beyond whatever requirements/standards there are. They just decided to give it a "special" name (marketing).
I think that Japanese brands don't have the "safe" image that volvo or other europeanas have, even if they are just as safe...it's just people's perceptions. Honda supposedly is as dedicated to safety as volvo and their models are just as safe, but no one recognizes that and I think ACE is a marketing attempt to even out the perception.
It's actually funny when some people look at a car in a moderate accident and say they would never buy one because it's so "crumpled"...people just don't realize that the car was MADE to crumple, because if the car didn't absorb all the force, their soft, fleshy, dumbass body would.
I think that Japanese brands don't have the "safe" image that volvo or other europeanas have, even if they are just as safe...it's just people's perceptions. Honda supposedly is as dedicated to safety as volvo and their models are just as safe, but no one recognizes that and I think ACE is a marketing attempt to even out the perception.
It's actually funny when some people look at a car in a moderate accident and say they would never buy one because it's so "crumpled"...people just don't realize that the car was MADE to crumple, because if the car didn't absorb all the force, their soft, fleshy, dumbass body would.
08-14-2006, 07:20 AM
#91
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Originally Posted by Brown Chaos
BMW 3 still reigns...but look how fast Infiniti came and nearly dethrowned it. Then Lexus tried again. And believe it or not, (yeah yeah, past), but the 2002 TL-S has been the only one so far to dethrown BMW of it's benchmark.
Considering Infiniti and Acura, are both first and second, when it came to their sport luxury sedans. (M45 and RL), they both knocked out, Lexus, Audi, Mercedes, BMW, and Jaguar. Not bad for two companies with a lesser nameplate than the other five.
08-14-2006, 07:59 AM
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I agree with jhr3uva90 that it's an image problem...but i think the essence of the problem is much deeper.
I think Honda overestimated Acura's image in the market because they were selling TSX's and TL's so well. when it came out, I honestly felt that they offered an RL designed how THEY (Honda/Acura) wanted, rather than what $50k customers wanted, and were cocky enough to think their image was strong enough to support this since it was strong enough to support strong sales of TSX's and TL's.
Image (or lack of) can be overcome if a company focuses on it. See Infiniti for a recent example...they had NO image prior to the G35. they explicity focused on creating a performance-premium image, and their products have reflected that ever since.
Most of us have no idea what direction or focus Acura has and their products haven't given us any clues either. They state that they are performance oriented, yet they have refused to offer a V8 or RWD, killed off the NSX and RSX, and put out another SUV. Now, they are trying to convey they are a "techno" company (see the new RDX commercials?). MOST of the gadgets they offer are offered by other automakers...SH-AWD is the only thing I can think of thats exclusive to them, but then again SH-AWD wouldn't even be required had they not been so insistent on FWD layouts.
The RL's problem is image, but there was no reason why Acura couldn't have designed the RL to rise above its current image (which is what is required in order to "raise" your image). I think they either didn't recognize there was an image problem or they chose to ignore it.
I think Honda overestimated Acura's image in the market because they were selling TSX's and TL's so well. when it came out, I honestly felt that they offered an RL designed how THEY (Honda/Acura) wanted, rather than what $50k customers wanted, and were cocky enough to think their image was strong enough to support this since it was strong enough to support strong sales of TSX's and TL's.
Image (or lack of) can be overcome if a company focuses on it. See Infiniti for a recent example...they had NO image prior to the G35. they explicity focused on creating a performance-premium image, and their products have reflected that ever since.
Most of us have no idea what direction or focus Acura has and their products haven't given us any clues either. They state that they are performance oriented, yet they have refused to offer a V8 or RWD, killed off the NSX and RSX, and put out another SUV. Now, they are trying to convey they are a "techno" company (see the new RDX commercials?). MOST of the gadgets they offer are offered by other automakers...SH-AWD is the only thing I can think of thats exclusive to them, but then again SH-AWD wouldn't even be required had they not been so insistent on FWD layouts.
The RL's problem is image, but there was no reason why Acura couldn't have designed the RL to rise above its current image (which is what is required in order to "raise" your image). I think they either didn't recognize there was an image problem or they chose to ignore it.
08-14-2006, 09:32 AM
#93
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Interesting read. I've been hanging on to Acura for 15 years but I'm not sure how much longer I can. I'm a coupe driver and loved! the 2 Legends I had, an 88 and a 95, but Acura has not repeated these coupe successes IMO. I did trade the Legend for the 03 CLS cause I wanted the 6 speed. It's a great car but no Legend replacement.
Acura has decided to give the near-lux coupe market to Infiniti, BMW, and maybe Lexus if an IS coupe comes out.
Dropped the NSX, the CL, the RSX, the Legend Coupe. THere was an 8 year gap between 6cyl-MT models from the 95 Legend to the 03 CLS. (NSX not withstanding). I'd love to see some a premium coupe off the RL or even the TL, but the rumor is if any coupe comes out it will be off the TSX!
If you don't like SUVs or sedans, Acura doesn't offer you anything anymore.
Acura has decided to give the near-lux coupe market to Infiniti, BMW, and maybe Lexus if an IS coupe comes out.
Dropped the NSX, the CL, the RSX, the Legend Coupe. THere was an 8 year gap between 6cyl-MT models from the 95 Legend to the 03 CLS. (NSX not withstanding). I'd love to see some a premium coupe off the RL or even the TL, but the rumor is if any coupe comes out it will be off the TSX!
If you don't like SUVs or sedans, Acura doesn't offer you anything anymore.
08-14-2006, 12:16 PM
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Oh I understand, it was just that I was lead to believe differently. And the Acura sales materials make no mention of an 'adaptation' of a chassis that was developed many years ago to serve as this new platform.
[QUOTE=mrdeeno]^^ I wouldn't worry about the RL having ACE but still being built on a common platform as a car without ACE. It pretty much was a re-engineering of the front end with different materials and configurations so that it better absorbs impact forces beyond whatever requirements/standards there are. They just decided to give it a "special" name (marketing).QUOTE]
[QUOTE=mrdeeno]^^ I wouldn't worry about the RL having ACE but still being built on a common platform as a car without ACE. It pretty much was a re-engineering of the front end with different materials and configurations so that it better absorbs impact forces beyond whatever requirements/standards there are. They just decided to give it a "special" name (marketing).QUOTE]
08-14-2006, 06:12 PM
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[QUOTE=CL6]Oh I understand, it was just that I was lead to believe differently. And the Acura sales materials make no mention of an 'adaptation' of a chassis that was developed many years ago to serve as this new platform.
No Acura wouldn't mention that fact as much as Lexus wouldn't mention that the ES is based off of a Camry.
It is common practice to adapt chassis however the Global Midsize has it's limits. Starting with the Accord (N/A) they either scaled down (TSX/ JDM Accord/ TL), or scaled it longer (RL/ Legend). While the platform is a great one to be sure it has it's limitations therefore there is only so much an engineer or designer can do.
No Acura wouldn't mention that fact as much as Lexus wouldn't mention that the ES is based off of a Camry.
It is common practice to adapt chassis however the Global Midsize has it's limits. Starting with the Accord (N/A) they either scaled down (TSX/ JDM Accord/ TL), or scaled it longer (RL/ Legend). While the platform is a great one to be sure it has it's limitations therefore there is only so much an engineer or designer can do.
08-14-2006, 08:15 PM
#96
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Obviously. My point was that I was led to believe that the ACE body structure was designed for the RL from the bottom up and that it ecompassed the entire vehicle, not just the front.
[QUOTE=Precision Crafted]
[QUOTE=Precision Crafted]
Originally Posted by CL6
No Acura wouldn't mention that fact as much as Lexus wouldn't mention that the ES is based off of a Camry.
08-14-2006, 09:07 PM
#97
Some dude
Now that theres a 286 hp TL-S for '07, wouldn't it make sense to bump the horsepower of the RL up, or am I just crazy?
08-14-2006, 10:32 PM
#98
Three Wheelin'
It would make sense to give the RL a bigger engine, especially since people keep bitching that the car doesn't have enough horsepower.
08-14-2006, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by jhr3uva90
It would make sense to give the RL a bigger engine, especially since people keep bitching that the car doesn't have enough horsepower.
290 HP is fine although it would be better in a car weighing 300 lbs less. It is the 256 ft lbs of torque at high RPMS that stinks! The car does not initially move off the line well. More pedal effort is required then expected. I had a supercharged Buick Regal GS. The 240 hp the engine put out was more then adequate and showed its muscle going 60 - 90 MPH (similar top end performance as the RL). But it was that 280 ft lbs of neck snapping torque at 3600 RPM that got it off the line!
08-15-2006, 01:06 AM
#100
Three Wheelin'
Would a turbo help?
08-15-2006, 07:11 AM
#101
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Originally Posted by jhr3uva90
It would make sense to give the RL a bigger engine, especially since people keep bitching that the car doesn't have enough horsepower.
But most of the bitching concerning the RL is different. The RL and its competitors are like a bunch of girls. Girls coordinate and spend vast amounts of time and money on their clothes and makeup and whatever not to look good for the guys, but to look good for other girls in a competitive sort of way.
it's not that the RL doesn't have enough horsepower for consumers, but instead it doesn't have enough HP for its competition (in their most potent offerings). If the competition raises available HP by offering larger engine choices, the RL looks bad if it doesn't follow route...kinda like that one girl that doesn't follow the trends that her friends followed.
For a girl that likes to buck the trend, depending on how she is doing it, it could be a good thing that she doesn't follow the pack, but it could also be a bad thing (for example if she decides to turn to the drug using crowd instead of her preppy friends). But the difference between the RL and girls is that the RL was researched, designed, and manufactured to MAKE MONEY. and in order to make money, it has to sell to a market with limited buyers and a lot of competition (girls don't have this kind of responsibility). The mere fact that Honda refuses to offer a more potent engine along the same lines as its competitors makes it look bad, especially in the "popularity" contest of $50k midsize luxury sedans. It IS honda's responsibility to make a car that sells well versus the competition, not make a "statement" about what consumers need or don't need.
08-15-2006, 10:51 AM
#102
Three Wheelin'
Hella good analogy and a good way to start a morning.
However, I don't think Honda ever intended to RL/Legend to be a huge seller. It seems to be more of a show car or a practical experiment to see if Honda can put SH-AWD in a production car. Now that they've accomplished that feat, they can start including SH-AWD in less expensive, more popular vehicles like the new RDX. The RL is more like a guinea pig than an actual car they they intend to sell a bunch of.
However, I don't think Honda ever intended to RL/Legend to be a huge seller. It seems to be more of a show car or a practical experiment to see if Honda can put SH-AWD in a production car. Now that they've accomplished that feat, they can start including SH-AWD in less expensive, more popular vehicles like the new RDX. The RL is more like a guinea pig than an actual car they they intend to sell a bunch of.
08-15-2006, 11:44 AM
#103
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since you put it that way, it may also be an 'experiement' that Acura put together to see how well they can penetrate the $50k market and whether what they have is or is not enough.
I guess with the RL's sales not meeting expectations, Honda can at least get a better grasp on what buyers in this market segment want and don't want and what they expect for $50k...i'm just concerned because they should've had a grasp on it with the previous gen. RL. Oh well, only time will tell.
I guess with the RL's sales not meeting expectations, Honda can at least get a better grasp on what buyers in this market segment want and don't want and what they expect for $50k...i'm just concerned because they should've had a grasp on it with the previous gen. RL. Oh well, only time will tell.
08-15-2006, 11:52 AM
#104
Three Wheelin'
Good point, mrdeeno. However, I think that ACURA would need to have more control over the RL in order for it to really sell in North America, and I don't know of HONDA (in Japan) will give them that control. As long as the RL/Legends collective global sales are at a certain level, Honda will be happy. But since Acura is mostly a North American entity, they are much more concerned with North American sales.
08-15-2006, 12:13 PM
#105
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The Japan arm of the company foisted the RL on the US. Simple as that. Maybe when this American design center gets running and the RL is completely redesigned maybe something will happen.
I'd love to see an RL with a supercharger in it and a 70% RWD bias for sale. And that nice ASPEC prototype grille on there, too.
I'd love to see an RL with a supercharger in it and a 70% RWD bias for sale. And that nice ASPEC prototype grille on there, too.
08-15-2006, 12:29 PM
#106
Three Wheelin'
Exactly! I agree with CL6 100%. It reminds me of the Honda Accord from 1994. Honda in Japan created one design for the entire world, and the design did well in Europe and Japan. The North America market, on the other hand, didn't like the design so well. That's why the NA version of Accord is now different from the European/Japanese version.
Honda created one Legend design for the whole world. Europe and Japan seem to like the design, but North American hasn't really warmed up to it. Maybe there needs to be an NA version (RL) and a European/Japanese version (Legend) with different designs?
Honda created one Legend design for the whole world. Europe and Japan seem to like the design, but North American hasn't really warmed up to it. Maybe there needs to be an NA version (RL) and a European/Japanese version (Legend) with different designs?
08-15-2006, 01:16 PM
#108
Three Wheelin'
Yup. In fact, I recall an article in BusinessWeek magazine back then that talked about Honda creating one Accord for the entire planet. It was smaller than the previous- and succeeding-generation Accords and had a slightly sportier suspension. Of course, the current Euro-Japanese Accord is sold in the U.S. as the Acura TSX, and you're right: they can't be more different. The TSX is selling well for Acura, but it would be a failure if it sold as an Accord in the U.S.
08-15-2006, 01:29 PM
#110
AcurAdmirer
Originally Posted by jhr3uva90
Hella good analogy and a good way to start a morning.
However, I don't think Honda ever intended to RL/Legend to be a huge seller. It seems to be more of a show car or a practical experiment to see if Honda can put SH-AWD in a production car. Now that they've accomplished that feat, they can start including SH-AWD in less expensive, more popular vehicles like the new RDX. The RL is more like a guinea pig than an actual car they they intend to sell a bunch of.
However, I don't think Honda ever intended to RL/Legend to be a huge seller. It seems to be more of a show car or a practical experiment to see if Honda can put SH-AWD in a production car. Now that they've accomplished that feat, they can start including SH-AWD in less expensive, more popular vehicles like the new RDX. The RL is more like a guinea pig than an actual car they they intend to sell a bunch of.
Remember, this isn't a limited run of handbuilt $500,000 cars ... these are volume-oriented cars built for the mass market.
Japanese and European sales aside, I'll just bet there is a LOT of angst flowing at headquarters over the punk sales. Honda isn't accustomed to losing, and this car is losing both money and face. Face is really important to the Japanese, so peope will be falling on their swords over this, if they haven't already. But they've backed themselves into a corner at this point ... they're too far into the cycle to drop in a new engine or make other huge changes, so it'll take a complete redesign to win in this market.
08-15-2006, 01:51 PM
#111
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The TL is getting a MMC but, honestly, it's getting what I'd call a dramatic change. I don't remember any Acura getting so many changes for the MMC. So I think Acura knows their bread and butter car has fallen on hard times and they're trying to prop it up before it collapses completely. So a similar change could be affected to the RL. I think this is not happening because the RL takes its marching orders from Japan whereas the TL gets its from the US.
Adapting a 3.5 to work for the TL is no small matter. Not to mention all the other changes. I think if the will was there the RL would change.
Adapting a 3.5 to work for the TL is no small matter. Not to mention all the other changes. I think if the will was there the RL would change.
08-15-2006, 02:23 PM
#112
Safety Car
Huh
Originally Posted by CL6
The Accord of today is the size of the Civic 20 years ago. I wonder if the Camry went through the same thing. That is interesting to learn that.
08-15-2006, 03:58 PM
#114
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by Mike_TX
I somehow doubt Honda built the RL with no real intention of selling a lot of them. The design work, engineering, tooling, parts, support and production costs for an entire class of car are staggering, and the only way to recover those costs is to sell a bunch of 'em.
Remember, this isn't a limited run of handbuilt $500,000 cars ... these are volume-oriented cars built for the mass market.
Japanese and European sales aside, I'll just bet there is a LOT of angst flowing at headquarters over the punk sales. Honda isn't accustomed to losing, and this car is losing both money and face. Face is really important to the Japanese, so peope will be falling on their swords over this, if they haven't already. But they've backed themselves into a corner at this point ... they're too far into the cycle to drop in a new engine or make other huge changes, so it'll take a complete redesign to win in this market.
Remember, this isn't a limited run of handbuilt $500,000 cars ... these are volume-oriented cars built for the mass market.
Japanese and European sales aside, I'll just bet there is a LOT of angst flowing at headquarters over the punk sales. Honda isn't accustomed to losing, and this car is losing both money and face. Face is really important to the Japanese, so peope will be falling on their swords over this, if they haven't already. But they've backed themselves into a corner at this point ... they're too far into the cycle to drop in a new engine or make other huge changes, so it'll take a complete redesign to win in this market.
As far as "not accustomed to losing," as guess that depends on how one defines losing. For example, the Honda Accord has "lost" to the Toyota Camry for years, but I don't think that causes Honda to shed many tears.
Regarding "saving face," the current Legend/RL has won awards in Japan and the US, which means a lot to an engineering company like Honda. And I doubt that disappointing sales of one model in one market makes Honda feel less manly. Acura in North America might be really perturbed, by Honda in Japan is probably annoyed, at worst.
08-15-2006, 05:50 PM
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I think it was 20,000 in its first year. But from what I've heard the Japanese are puzzled as to why the RL has fizzled and the American executives regard it as the sibling with bad teeth and a mole on their face who eats dinner in the backroom during parties.
08-15-2006, 05:57 PM
#116
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Here is an interesting review of the Legend:
http://www.channel4.com/4car/road-te...?id=742&page=2
Some tricks the US car should do are discussed. I love those headlight washers.
http://www.channel4.com/4car/road-te...?id=742&page=2
Some tricks the US car should do are discussed. I love those headlight washers.
08-15-2006, 06:02 PM
#117
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by CL6
I think it was 20,000 in its first year. But from what I've heard the Japanese are puzzled as to why the RL has fizzled and the American executives regard it as the sibling with bad teeth and a mole on their face who eats dinner in the backroom during parties.
You make a good point about the Japanese executives. I think that Honda needs to realize that, when it comes to luxury cars, Americans and Japanese have divergent tastes. Toyota realized that back in the 1980's when they sent their people to CA to observe American luxury car drivers. Their observations became the basis of Lexus. And that's why Lexuses drive like Cadllacs, in my opinion. We US drivers generally want a car that DRIVES like a Caddy, but doesn't LOOK like a Caddy and is NOT an actually CADDY (that whole brand thing). Lexus is the #1 luxury brand here in the USA because Toyota/Lexus knows us as well as we know ourselves and gives us what we want. Honda of Japan doesn't know (or care) what the US luxury-car driver wants and gives us the quintessential Japanese luxury car, instead of a Caddy that happens to be made by Japanese people.
That being said, I like the quintessential Japanese luxury car, and wish it was even more Japanese, meaning even more gadgets.
08-15-2006, 06:27 PM
#118
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A perfect example of that is the Multi-Information Display. The TL has a very logical move from one thing to the next order. The RL, on the other hand, you get kicked back to the main menu every time you make a choice. The Japanese think that is the logical way. The Americans think the TL is the logical way. Both are different. I see that as a small example as to how the RL has a Japanese heart.
I like the RL and how it operates and that it is different than the other cars. But you are right in that it is an acquired taste, in a way.
I like the RL and how it operates and that it is different than the other cars. But you are right in that it is an acquired taste, in a way.
08-15-2006, 06:33 PM
#119
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by CL6
A perfect example of that is the Multi-Information Display. The TL has a very logical move from one thing to the next order. The RL, on the other hand, you get kicked back to the main menu every time you make a choice. The Japanese think that is the logical way. The Americans think the TL is the logical way. Both are different. I see that as a small example as to how the RL has a Japanese heart.
I like the RL and how it operates and that it is different than the other cars. But you are right in that it is an acquired taste, in a way.
I like the RL and how it operates and that it is different than the other cars. But you are right in that it is an acquired taste, in a way.
That reminds me, I wonder if Acura ever considered marketing the RL to Japanese-culture aficionados? Also, have they considered the Asian American communities? Where I come from, most of the people who praised my car (or even recognized it) happened to have far east asian ancestry.
08-15-2006, 09:02 PM
#120
Senior Moderator
Fascinating thread. It is so interesting to visit this part of the forum and to compare it to the TL side. Do you people not enjoy your cars? Who cares how the RL is selling? You all are sounding like the RL is dead when it's STILL selling better than the old RL, even though sales have declined significantly this year.
On the TL side, we have several types of threads:
--a) wow, the 2007 TL-S rox! or sux! And the BMW 335i/G35/IS350/Hyundai Azera/name your lower market car is going to eat the TL's lunch! LOLZ 1337!111111
--b) wow, my TL rattles!
--c) wow, the A-Spec kit looks great, how much can I get the A-Spec kit for?
--d) wow, look at my mod list! How many more mods can I do for my car?
--e) wow, I really enjoy the car!
In other words, there is lots of passion over the car. We don't care that TL sales are declining this year, we are too busy being IN our cars or finding a good deal on them to purchase them. (I admit, I wish I could take a curvy freeway ramp at far higher than the posted limit in my TL, but I am waiting for the TL to grow SH-AWD.
)
We all agree that all Acura dealers should be true luxury dealers and treat us as luxury car customers (my dealer does this), that Acura should put an engine with more torque, or more displacement in the RL (c'mon V8!), and that they should actually MARKET the RL. There are dozens of threads here that say the same thing. There's no use arguing about it as Honda/Acura will only do something about it when they daggon well please.....and this is why we TRY to keep all these comments in one or two threads on the TL side as mostly they refer to the MMC refresh for the 2007 TL.
Sorry to threadcrap in such a tongue-in-cheek way, but you guys REALLY need to go outside and enjoy/drive your RLs. This thread sounds too much like you are moaning into your beers! I have driven an RL and I loved the ride! I love the way it looks. I love the tech. I love the fact that with its V6, I can still get similar performance (except low end torque) to some of these V8 engines. If it had been available at the time I decided to trade in my '02 TL, I would have strongly considered buying one.
On the TL side, we have several types of threads:
--a) wow, the 2007 TL-S rox! or sux! And the BMW 335i/G35/IS350/Hyundai Azera/name your lower market car is going to eat the TL's lunch! LOLZ 1337!111111
--b) wow, my TL rattles!
--c) wow, the A-Spec kit looks great, how much can I get the A-Spec kit for?
--d) wow, look at my mod list! How many more mods can I do for my car?
--e) wow, I really enjoy the car!
In other words, there is lots of passion over the car. We don't care that TL sales are declining this year, we are too busy being IN our cars or finding a good deal on them to purchase them. (I admit, I wish I could take a curvy freeway ramp at far higher than the posted limit in my TL, but I am waiting for the TL to grow SH-AWD.
)We all agree that all Acura dealers should be true luxury dealers and treat us as luxury car customers (my dealer does this), that Acura should put an engine with more torque, or more displacement in the RL (c'mon V8!
), and that they should actually MARKET the RL. There are dozens of threads here that say the same thing. There's no use arguing about it as Honda/Acura will only do something about it when they daggon well please.....and this is why we TRY to keep all these comments in one or two threads on the TL side as mostly they refer to the MMC refresh for the 2007 TL.Sorry to threadcrap in such a tongue-in-cheek way, but you guys REALLY need to go outside and enjoy/drive your RLs. This thread sounds too much like you are moaning into your beers! I have driven an RL and I loved the ride! I love the way it looks. I love the tech. I love the fact that with its V6, I can still get similar performance (except low end torque) to some of these V8 engines. If it had been available at the time I decided to trade in my '02 TL, I would have strongly considered buying one.