forcemac101

I was driving through southern colorado today on hwy 160 westbound towards alamosa, when going up the pass my car throttle seemed to quit working. The car slowed down, engine still running....until vehicle stopped moving....the motor then quit. No messages, no dash board annunciators, nothing. I popped the hood gave a check over everything, checked the oil, etc. nothing appeared wrong.

Car started up fine, no warnings or annunciators....so started going again. Same thing happened about a mile later...still going uphill at this point. Water temp was fine, oil levels good...electrics seemed fine. Started up again, this time i turned off all accessories, and electrics to best i could. No other instances of this stalling happened again. Drove with the AC off until in The san luis valley...drove another 120 miles no problems, with AC on. Hit Wolf Creek pass and turned off the AC there during ascent, also drove in manual mode in 3rd gear. No stallling the entire ascent. I am worried, because i still have 2 days of driving ahead....trying to make LA.

Thoughts?

Ps. Just did the 105k maintenance...new water pump, timing chain, front, rear diff fluid, transmission fluid changed and AC checked...not serviced though. Car made it from omaha, ne to colorado springs day before in 108 degree heat with no probs....

IanVS

Sounds like you should call Car Talk!

I'm assuming you had plenty of gas, right? I'm not sure where the pump is in this car (I think it's in the front of the tank), and a steep hill might cause the gas to pool in the back where the pump can't get to it.

Other than that, the only thing I could guess is there's some kind of safety shutoff that got triggered by the car's computer brain. I haven't had my RL very long, but I'd venture to guess it has enough sensors and processors to fly an Apollo mission. Seriously though, it seems like if this were the case and it shut down because something was overheating or whatnot, the car would give you some kind of warning.

If it hasn't given you any more trouble lately, I'd say press on. What's the worst that can happen? . . .You get stuck in death valley in 130 degree temps and die. . .

Um, on second thought, drive at night and take lots of water with you.

IanVS

I found another thread that sounds very similar to your symptoms. There are a few theories, probably will never know the exact cause. https://acurazine.com/forums/2g-rl-2005-2012-76/stalled-12-000-feet-elevation-498067/

The overall lesson seems to be don't worry about it.

253RL

Super crazy man! Both threads seem to coincide!..

Matt W

Seriously! I don't think we will ever know what really happened!

HEAVY_RL

iTrader: (1)

In for the crazy guesses

I say low or bad gass.

forcemac101

I had about 3/4 of tank full of 91 gas. I was climbing from about 4500' to i suspect 8000' ish. It was hot for that alt...it was about 90f.

Weird thing was that it handled wolf creek 10,800 no problem....although the AC was off in that climb, and it w 74f at the pass....

HEAVY_RL

iTrader: (1)

interesting. I think you may be on to something, have you ever called acura care?

forcemac101

Well we made it to flafstaff today after departingPagosa Springs.....no problems the entire way...AC on the whole time...still got 29 mpg (manual math after fill up). Not sure what the hiccup was yesterday....

oo7spy

Is it possible the car wasn't getting the air it needed and choked out? You didn't mention the air filter service, but continuing on messes up that theory. Maybe something got stuck in the intake?

Or your fuel pump may be dying. Maybe the incline put strain on it and the A/C was robbing some power from it.

Benush

Bad gas with too much water (or ethanol hogging water). Water in the fuel tank rises to the highest point and feeds into the lines. Water in the line condenses blocking fuel delivery, the engine starves for fuel and just runs out, like it was out of gas. Car sets, engine heat warms the fuel lines and affected areas and fuel flows freely again. Then up we go and colder temps, and same thing happens. After a while, all the water is finally out of the system from the bad gas and magically the car runs well forever, or until you fill up with bad (water rich) gas again.

Just an old farts opinion

oo7spy

I have heard that WalMart/Sam's Club gasoline is diluted, and whether true or not, I have not filled up at one of their stations since.

steve807

so water is lighter that gasoline ? works its way to the top ?
what kind of heavy gas are you using ?

oo7spy

I would assume his whole perspective is inverted since the stuff at the bottom is getting pumped in and not the stuff at the top. You know with gravity and all.

steve807

Well, while you are here tell me more about 'diluted' gasoline.
This is a joke right ?

steve807

Back to the OP's problem. I once had a similar behavior in a 90's Toyota Landcruiser. Problem was fuel pump. It would overheat as the tank ran down and the excess fuel recirculated from the engine back to the tank warmed up the gasoline. Easy diagnosis was to stop at a gas station and top off the tank with some cool gas. All was then good for a while.

oo7spy

Watered down gas or "bad gas". I have no basis to make this accusation as I heard it through the grapevine, but it would seem to support their ability to sell the gas for cheaper. Just like your local corner pharmacist will spray his vegetation down to sell "more".

HEAVY_RL

iTrader: (1)

Diluted gas is legit IMO, especially at remote/rural stores.

forcemac101

Alrighty...thanks for the thoughts. I have made it to California...although I am sad to say the problem manifested itself again on an ascent to a summit pass.

This time, it was east bound on I-40 just west of Needles, Ca. It was 110F out, and I was climbing from about 1000' to the pass at about 2700'. I had about 1/2 tank of gas on this second instance.

The car just died, like it did before. In both of these instances, I was doing about 70-75mph, AC was on, and cruise control was on. I am not sure if cruise being on is a culprit, but I figure I'll give all the details.

Also, on both times after the car died, it was difficult to restart immediately, but if i waited about 3-4 minutes it started up. Both times if I tried to restart it as soon as we rolled to a stop, the engine sputtered about 2-3 secs, then quit again.

I am suspecting it is something to do with fuel delivery to the engine. But the weird thing is that the car drove fine after the incidences....each time, I finished each summit with the AC off, cruise off, and in manual mode on the transmission.

The first instance in Colorado, I had filled up at a "Giant" brand gas station with 91. Second time, it was from a Shell station outside Williams, AZ with 91 gas. I got about 28-29 mpg on both tanks with the gas....

If it is the fuel system, i imagine it could be a fuel filter, fuel pump...or maybe even a fuel cap?? My previous Acura (1997 CL), the fuel cap kept the tank pretty pressurized...always hissed when I opened it....this RL does not hiss. I have heard of weird things like a "check engine" light being caused by a cap not sealing the tank properly...can any of you guys weigh in on this??


I have only had the car about 10 days...so I am still learning the car...

Benush

LOL up or down maybe it was inverted... I concede you point but reality is that water from fuel gets into the fuel lines and causes problems. That's why many containers of additives that disperse the water are sold her in the cold Rocky Mountains. Cold weather exacerbates the condition.

Bad gas exists. The underground tanks are susceptible to contamination as are the tanker trucks that bring the fuel. Unscrupulous station owners are hesitant to repair leaks until forced to by public outcries (followed by government intervention). So, no, oo7 is not joking.

If you have never had to replace fuel filters and fuel pumps because some station owner wouldn't admit wrong doing (until litigation and testing by the state), count yourself lucky. I replaced fuel filters 3 times in less than 4 months and then the pump before I found out that a small station that I seldom visit had deposited contaminated fuel in my pickup. Finally pulled the gas tank and cleaned it and with a new fuel pump, filter and lines the problem went away.

So scoff if you wish regarding "diluted" fuel, but if you ever are on a road trip DON'T stop at a small independent station unless you want to be visited by the AAA tow truck some 30 miles down the road!

Oh and I'll get back to you on the lighter than gas question, because a chemical engineer was explaining to a few if us about water condensation in fuel line and I guess I heard him wrong. It was many years ago and maybe I was day dreaming. Just remember that when water mixes with gasoline the result (especially in race cars) is not good.

Benush

So the pressure coming from the tank (pump) is not sufficient to get it to the injectors, so if my theory of bad gas is wrong,
then it could be tank vent blockage,
or fuel cap not holding pressure (just because it seats and you think its holding, there may be a problem where it seats to the filler neck,
or return line blockage
or fuel pump

And if it's none of these then I bow to defeat and think that HEAVY_RL should have me banned from Acurazine for 6 months!!

neuronbob

I move for bad gas. I have driven my RL at high altitude in Colorado, including to the top of Pike's Peak twice, and had ZERO problems. Fuel pump also possible....shifted in place maybe? Sounds like dealer time.

steve807

I know you will find the problem, you sure cannot live with this kind of a symptom for long.

Still, I've got 10 to 1 odds on a bet that fuel pump replacement fixes it. Not a bad job on an RL.

Fuel pump failure (not the heat related as I mentioned above) actually happened to me in a 96 Pontiac, a real pain as it took 3 pumps before the mechanic got a good one that was not dead right out of the box or would not fail in the first hour. Each required a removal of the fuel tank to install the new pump. Many days without a car.

Diluted gas, meaning loading up a high percentage of premium with regular is a common fraud. Diluted gas, meaning with water, is not. Too much evidence, too many quick failures after fill up, easily tracked back to the gas station. The smallest amount of water is quickly detectable simply by the number of folks complaining and water quickly goes to the bottom trap of the dealer's tank (all be it slowly if there's ethanol in there) In the old days, it was common to put diesel in the gasoline, but with it's high price that crime is not profitable any more.

Yes, I'm in the refined products business.

The gasoline transport and terminal companies are careful to watch the quality of the product. It is tested for haze and gravity and other optical characteristics all along the trip to the retailer. The only intentional dilution applies only to regular gasoline - it can have up to 5% by volume of 'transmix' added to it along the way. Typically diesel or kero, but always something that burns good (not water!).

Premium is protected. In fact, the smallest detectable transmix product that gets into premium gets the whole batch degraded and relabeled as regular. Amoco BP water-white (clear) premium used to be carefully protected to keep it pretty. But I think BP discontinued the clear Premium advertising pitch some time ago. Have not seen it in our system in a long time.

HEAVY_RL

iTrader: (1)

The starting delay could be that delco relay recall that we had.

oo7spy

A fuel cap can be a touchy piece of equipment, and new Hondas all have a gas cap warning light. Still, that is not to say your cap isn't bad b/c your light didn't come on.

I don't know how this can translate into your symptoms, but my Honda mower's gas cap will actually create a vacuum and stop the motor just like you are saying. The remedy is to NOT tighten the gas cap so the vacuum will not create.

You can test your gas cap light by not tightening your cap to the click. Sometimes stopping before three clicks can throw the error too. I would be interested to know how driving with a loose cap would affect the symptoms.

Is this only going up hill, or is it just at altitude? Any more variables that are constant between the failures?

IanVS

It seems like it must have something to do with the temperature as well. Every time it's happened (in this and the other thread), it was very hot at the lower altitudes. Maybe the cap is letting air escape when it's warm and expanded, and then not letting it back in quickly enough as the car rises and the density and temperature outside are decreasing.

That, or the car's computer doesn't expect that rapid change and isn't giving the engine the right mixture.

forcemac101

yep...both on 6-7% grade inclines....always near the top of the summit. Although aI thought a 2700' summit shouldn't be a problem....

oo7spy

I'm back on the fuel pump wagon. The part is linked below for reference. It is under the driver's side rear seat.


17708-SJA-A02 MODULE ASSY., FUEL PUMP
$264.08

IanVS

Or you can get the Denso from RockAuto for $140.

forcemac101

Was this mentioned? Don't know if anyone was referencing this when saying "fuel pump"...but it seems like a logical guess...

http://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/pubs/SB/B07-003.pdf

steve807

give us a clue

link not working

forcemac101

Found it in the "garage" section above. If the link doens't work, check that thread...says how to get it working.

But here is the cut and past from the first part of the service bulletin:

Fuel Vapor Lock
SYMPTOM
The engine has an occasional performance problem
during unseasonably warm weather. This condition is
worse at higher altitudes.
PROBABLE CAUSE
High ambient temperatures and/or high altitude causes
fuel vapor lock.
CORRECTIVE ACTION
Replace the fuel pump module. The new fuel pump
module has a recalibrated fuel pump.
PARTS INFORMATION
Fuel Pump Module: P/N 17708-SJA-A02
Base Gasket: P/N 17574-SDC-L01

steve807

Vapor lock possible with fuel injection is a surprise, wonder if it is in the high pressure manifold or supply line (no way !) to the injectors or the return line that allows entrained gas to somehow get into the pump's suction side? That would be a positive feedback situation that continuously gets worse which mirrors the stated symptom.

oo7spy

Where did you fill up? If CO, is it possible they don't get the same summer gas that TX gets b/c they don't expect 100 degree weather?

This sounds like your most probable diagnosis. Still on the fuel pump wagon.

oo7spy

Actually, I don't suppose the quality of the summer fuel would be suspect at all if the fuel pump is known to be defective.

Add this to the list of potential problems with a 2005 MY.

wcimo

I called Acura and told them about the vapor lock issue that I am having when I drive around Las Vegas or out of town on hot days and they told me too bad because the car is out of warranty. What does this have to do with the amount of miles on a car when you have a defective fuel pump? I called the NHTSA and told them how the car stalls at 60 to 70 miles per hour on the freeway. How scary! I could only hope that his happens to an Acura executive when he is driving on a freeway. If you are having this problem on a 2005, 2006, or 2007 RL, please report it to NHTSA at (800) 424-9153. If they get enough complaints then they will look into the issue.

oo7spy

I understand the principle you are working for here, but is $140 really worth that much to you?

oo7spy

I suppose before you answer that^, we should clarify, "I called Acura." You called your local dealer, or you called Acura Care? Your response sounds in line with some/most dealers which has absolutely no reflection on Acura as dealers are privately owned. If that was the response of Acura Care, I would be somewhat surprised. We have seen them cooperate and help compensate thousands of dollars for known issues.

wcimo

To clarify, I had worked with the dealer where I got nowhere but I was referring to Acura Care. Also, it isn't $140 but Las Vegas Acura wants over $500 to replace the fuel pump. If I lived in Canada or the northern part of the US where it wouldn't be an issue then I wouldn't care. I would like an Acura executive to drive my car to California on Interstate 15 and let it stall out on them and then tell me it isn't an issue that should be fixed by them.

oo7spy

Rockauto Denso fuel pump, part #9510019: $115



The fuel pump is located under the rear seat on the left side. You can remove the seat in less than 10 minutes. I won't assume the amount of work to get the pump out, but it can't be that much.



I understand your frustration, and I am surprised Acura Care responded like that (unless there are some details that were either left out or are exaggerated ). However, it is only a fuel pump and not a transmission, propeller shaft, or differential.