Please respect the anonymity. I am about to tell you a story.

There have been 3 transmissions (4 trips total) in my car, the usual moonroof problem, a replaced actuator, 2 trips for failed VSA and ABS, repainted mufflers, 1 door molding replacement, 2 brake resurfacing, and latest an axle that fell out of the transmission housing causing the car to need to be towed. What's your opinion?

The problem was first brought to the attention of Honda through a letter to the president sent certified return receipt which received no written response. After several calls to Acura reps and talks with the managers at Honda headquarters the big H has told me to take a hike and find a lawyer...So I did. They lawyer told Honda not to speak with me any longer and to only deal with them directly. The big H after waiting the full amount of 10 days to respond to the request of full reimbursement for the car has answered with the expected NO to the lawyer. So now we're off to court. To let you all know there is a 150 day waiting period before court where the situation is allowed to remain open to either an offer or more problems to occur. The more problems and service records apparently the better your case is. The big H as I have heard is a problem to deal with, stubborn to the end and all of this is true. Some words of advice are to keep EVERYTHING, written records, receipts, times of conversations, pictures of any occurrences, anything and everything that goes on. If you have transmission issues be wary, this is NOT an easy battle. Please keep in mind that through all this you must drive the car as you normally would to show that in using it your continuously and without fail have problems

 

The history of when each transmission went and which dealers you went to would be of great help. Could you also provide your date of purchase and any other info on how and when stuff broke?


The "how" it got to this place would be of particular interest...

 

Original Date of Purchase 06/06/00 12 miles

The problems that I will focus on is the tranny though the others were quite annoying and were seperate trips.

1. Original Tranny blows approx 22500. motor mount broken, window rubber replaced, brakes resurfaced, TRANS INSPECTED FLUSHED AND REPLACED.

2. Second tranny blows. approx 32000. TRANS REPLACED, FLUSHED INSPECTED

3. Third tranny has issues at 36600, solenoids are replaced.
36720 tranny blows and is Replaced. " same deal"

4. 36720 (notice milage) I take the car and 15 miles later VSA and ABS give out.

5. 36735 Back in car, ABS controller is replaced. Again 15 miles home and Lights are on w/o ABS and VSA.

6. 36750 Car is tested, problem was missing teeth on the CV joint sets. CV joints are replaced.

7. 38473 Car needs to be towed. NO MOVEMENT... find out that "Outer CV joint flattened" CV Joints replaced.

8. YESTERDAY!!!! Car slips in and out of gear. Brought back for service...it's there now. 4th Tranny believed to be dead but not confirmed.


In all cases I have noticed serious degredation when the weather is warm and or humid.
1st time--- car slipped at the high end 4-5 slipped and it worked it's way downward to 2-3.

2nd time--- totally unexpected, just jolted on a warm day.

3rd time--- slipped once...small. 2-3 started to go slowly, it happened while in traffic in the AM going to work. Left it for the day and drove home. More traffic 2-3-4 eventually slip....then no reverse.

4th---yesterday R bangs into gear in the AM. On the ride home there is traffic, an hour or so of stop and go. 1-2, 1-2, 1-2-3, etc etc etc no 4-5. 1 and 2 hit a bit hard, then when it's open road I accelerate to about 70 3/4 of the pedal down...I'm free!!! NOT 2-3 hard 3-4 slip and catch...5...5...then 5. Toll booths and stop lights show more slippage...NOT GOOD. I bring her in and about 1/2 mile to the shop the lights come on....she's officially dead.


I will now take questions.

 

The dealer bought back my '02 TL-S with 18k miles for $28K after the 2nd tranny failed...I was happy with that...especially not having to go through all of the hassle of a Lemon Law suit...

 

Yes, I looked over the list...


Some thoughts… and some questions …


It's pretty obvious (now), from your comments -- you got a "lemon". IMO, the "how" some people managed to get a "new car" (6-speed, etc) vs. your "tow a transmission storage shed to keep you running" and having to hire a “big gun” is one of the “major” concerns here. (How and who you contacted might be rather important…)


I get the "warm" (hot) temps issue impacting the transmission's operation. IMO, the transmission cooler is undersized for WOT and operation in hot stop-and-go driving (low air flow around the transmission proper) and even when going at moderate speeds up hills (in warm weather). I am a bit mystified by your comments about 4-5 going first. The "norm" here seems to be 3rd and 2nd going (doing some major slipping [AKA flare]) before getting the dreaded VSA (tranny dirt nap) indicator light...

A defective ECU/PCM (Powertrain Control Module) that was faulty could cause the destruction of your three transmissions. (I've seen a few of these "multiple tranny replacement" stories where the problem kept occurring until EVERYTHING was replaced that was related to the "auto slushbox" (ECU/PCM, solenoids, sensors, torque converter/rebuilt transmission, etc.)

I would presume that you could mention that name of the dealer (or dealers) that serviced or worked on the car (yes/no)?


The CV joints and some other parts, that needed replacment,. Could have been damaged by the dealer in one or more of the transmission replacements. So, I wonder how much of this is "lemon" from the start vs. a "learn by breaking school of mechanics" (Someone who did the work could have had little experience AND/OR spent more time inspecting their lunch bag than checking your vehicle...)

I'm also curious as to when and who your started talking to when you believed that you "had enough" and what sequence degenerated into a call to “the top”? (Service manager, regional rep, etc, etc)

 

First I won't tell you where the items were repaired because I know that they ARE one of the best in the business and I trust them totally. That is for the business' sake. I'm only looking out for them because I honestly believe that it is the Honda product that is the problem, you can only do so much with what you have. I do agree that there MAY have been one or two install problems but it's not everyday you have to pull an acura totally apart...or is it?

Anyway, I am certain that heat is the major player here.

I didn't contact a rep until the second one blew because I believe that anything could happen and maybe it was a fluke the first time. I was wrong. I called customer service for Acura and spoke to the NY/NJ rep who although was nice the first time had the same rapid degredation in attitude that the tranny has when it's all heated up. I never swore and I asked nicely for help. The person would NOT let me speak with his boss and refused to give me another person to talk to. So I did what I thought was right and lied about who I was until I got through to his manager who had seemed to be more willing to settle the deal (he seemed to want to put me in a new CL-S, but after a week of fighting with his subordinate I wouldn't take one, I wanted money now). The day that I was told that I would receive a call back as to the outcome of their decision came and went WITH OUT the return call so the next day I got a lawyer. He intern sent a letter to Honda/Acura telling them to no longer contact me and to go straight through them.

I am interested in your theory of the ECU/PCM being the root of this evil. That would be an interesting attempted fix. I can only surmise that the cost for 4 tranny's now and the labor is around 10-12K...what do all of you think? I am willing to keep this going as long as I have to. For every tranny you replace apparently there is a 12K mile warranty. If they keep going every 8-10K I will drive for free in 4-5 more! Think they will let thos go that far?

Well I confirmed on Friday that the last tranny is shot. This was explained as the latest problem. There are two shafts that are suppose to be running at the same speed. In my car when the lights went off the ECU recorded that one was traveling at was is equal to 20 mph while the other is at 60mph...they are suppose to be at the same speed!!! Does anyone know what this is about...I have failed to understand exactly where these shafts are.

 

My problem also first came about at 22K a tad more than the lemon lay may or maynot permit...that would be a hell of a way to go down.

 

This could almost perfectly describe my conditions today!
HOT stop-n-go driving.

I also do plenty of WOT

BUT that's why I bought a Type S dammit!

I wasn't shopping for a Toyota Prius :angry:

 

I'm afraid of this too! I had a nightmare experience with a Ford dealership becuase the techs where idiots.

 

For the most part we barely have a cooler. It maintains temp when going at a highway speed but doesn not come close to what you would expect would be necessary for a performance oriented engine. Some have looked at an additional tranny cooler but in the event that you have another problem who's to say that tampering with the existing system didn't cause it? Catch 22 if you ask me. I would love to get the temps from the tranny fluid when the trans goes out. Perhaps that would give a better clue.

 

Getting a "tap" onto the transmission's internal temp sensor in addition to a tee mounter where one of the members added a tranny cooler could really help put an end to any "heat" questions.

The "picture" keeps filling in, and I have some gut feelings about problems (these being):

1. Some or more of the boxes got some crud transmission diff carrier bearings. (And a little bird told me they were never sized big enough for the torque of the engine. The case halves would need to be redesigned to fix this…)

2. The high temps don't help the ATF properties which help/hinder the bearing problem. And hot fluid is not good at removing heat from “hot spots” in a transmission.

3. The high temps cause oxidation and also cause viscosity changes that effect the clutch operation and effects how the clutch pack pressure seals operate (not sure -- but I did say "hunch")

4. Bad torque converter for some folks

5. Magnetic solenoids that get filled with ferrous metal crud when the bearings go (via the random bad/undersized problem combined with poor/inferior lubrication properties).

6. Bad PCM/ECU and/or solenoids that do not exhibit the proper linearity or "get sticky" causing the 2nd and 3rd clutch packs to fry each other out (this is also caused by the ferrous particles from worn bearing collecting on them (they are magnetic) and people (members) have mentioned that they have found metallic particles on the drain plug (and the ATF wasn't too oxidized.).

-- IMO, this is shameful behavior on Acura's part. And I really do look at issues from their POV (as much is as possible for someone that doesn't work there or own stock in their company).

-- So close, yet so far due to a lack of vision...

AND, I am very interested in finding out more info on the driving habits of people who have had zero problems with 30k+ miles -- there are more than a few (but I want info on how they really drove the cars and how often they "kick it" (and the temps and other info that could "fill-in" the picture).

I'm going to try-out a highway/city poll (“Tranny victims – a city/hwy percent poll) (in addition to others) in the near future.

RE: Catch-22 of adding the cooler… What you mentioned is one of the major reasons I've restrained myself from trying to get all of the "ATF cooler" parts together and installed on the car. I've had a perfect record (so far -- knock on fake wood), but sometimes the Acura "guys" are just not logical enough to know that someone is trying to help them (It wouldn't be the first time for a company, individual, or government institute turned-away "free"/"humble suggestion"/information and/or tips that could have saved money, time, good feelings, and/or lives (and I'm referring to lots of well-meaning people [not just me])

 

From a legal and "when to take action" perspective, this seems to be the "razor" blade that the legal scales are supported on... (When it first happened, the letter of the law, loopholes, and ethics vs. "the Law". Perhaps I’ll be thinking about adding an easy to get to link to "lemon laws" in each state [I had found that link for another poor soul before])

It looks like they were willing (in some fashion) to do a "trade", but the buy-out (from my recollections) seems to be a "hard sell" and might very well require the legal action (Well, you're there, so I'm not telling you anything new...)

As far as understanding the cost/benefit ratio, their {Acura's] behavior seems to make little sense... (But, what do I know)...

 

The dealer can be good, but the most of the “regular” dealers don’t let you observe WHO is working on the car. And quality does vary. I think there is too much reliance on ODBII codes – if they don’t see them, there must not be anything wrong. There can also be huge variances in quality between techs. Now toss in a “bad dealer” attitude and we’re talking nightmare (ok, you say you don’t think that is the case, but I’m just saying it happens to varying degrees.)

More and more evidence is coming in and perhaps a failure by temp and/or season would be useful too (a 1-10 day temp log would be a good PCM/ECU upgrade for Acura [if they don’t have it])

Boy, kind of like a form of brinkmanship and judgment calls… Do you give them an extra day; two days; three days, a week? Unfortunately, or fortunately, I’ve avoided “some” nastiness by “forgetting” about smaller CS issues and got the call before I had to open a web site (of woes) and call a lawyer. (Haven’t always been so lucky and it was before the web surfing and personal sites were ubiquitous!)



Penny wise, pound-foolish comes to mind. Why doesn’t Acura dealers keep some ECU/PCM “known” good spares around and just send the units back for “unit testing” at the factory? If one of the “drivers” to the solenoids was “soft” (slow or had other problems) it could easily beat-up your clutch packs on at least second and third gears.

I’ve said this earlier (and it’s my opinion), but after the second tranny, the dealer would be wise to swap the whole mess out (EVERYTHING connected to the tranny). No dealer is equipped to tell if the stuff is working perfectly or not (Diags codes don’t count and can’t tell if a solenoid driver is operating perfectly.)


There are three shafts in the slushbox. I need to look at the Helms before I stick my foot in my mouth, and think there are a few gear combinations that could make this statement true.

The two sensors are connected to 2 of the 3 shafts in the transmission.

Shaft driven by the torque converter is the: MAINSHAFT
Shaft in the “middle” is the COUNTERSHAFT
Third shaft is the SECONDARY SHAFT

The speed of the counter shaft depends on certain gears being engaged.

* In fifth gear, the fifth gear on the MAINSHAFT has its clutch pack “compressed” (by “routed” hydraulic pressure) into making IT transfer power to the “related” fifth gear on the COUNTERSHAFT (it has no clutch pack) and power is transferred to the final drive gear via the COUNTERSHAFT (the counter shaft is connected to the final drive gear).

The speed between the two shafts would differ from 1:1.

* In fourth gear, the fourth gear on the MAINSHAFT has its clutch pack “compressed” and it transfers its power to the forth gear on the COUNTERSHAFT (also no clutch pack) and power is transferred via the COUNTERSHAFT to the final drive gear (same basic setup as fifth gear, but different ratio and the clutch pack inside the MAINSHAFT’s fourth gear is “engaged”.

Speed would not be 1:1


* In third gear, the fixed gear on the MAINSHAFT is connected to the third gear (with inner clutch pack) to the third gear on the COUNTERSHAFT. The clutch pack is engages and power goes out to the final drive (The pics make it look very close to 1:1).

As a note, the third gears on the MAINSHAFT, COUNTERSHAFT, and SECONDARY SHAFT are all “meshed” and connected together. The clutch packs determine the power flow through the shafts.

* In second gear, the clutch pack that was engaged on the third gear COUNTERSHAFT is NO LONGER ENGAGED. Instead, the SECONDARY SHAFT is rotating (as it does all the time), but the second gear (which is located on the SECONDARY SHAFT), along with the first gear, is engaged (via ITS clutch pack) and transmits power from the SECONDARY SHAFT back to second gear on the countershaft. And the countershaft drives the power (as in all gear setting).

* In first gear, the clutch pack of third is still disengaged; it gets its clutch pack to lock-up to the SECONDARY SHAFT and sends power to the matching first gear on the COUNTER SHAFT. The power goes out to the final drive.

GEARS 1 and 2 drive from secondary shaft to counter shaft (clutch packs are on this shaft)

THIRD GEAR has its clutch pack on the counter shaft

GEARS 4 and 5 drive from the MAINSHAFT and have their clutch packs on the MAINSHAFT.


(If you noticed a diagram, you could see how easy it would be to get two different gear ratios to engage at the same time with terrible consequences (e.g. third and seond gear engaged at the same time makes for a lot of burning)


- - > HERE IS THE HELMS (Service Manual info): < - - -

POWER FLOW:

Gear Operation

Gears on the mainshaft:
* The 4th gear is engaged/disengaged with the mainshaft by the 4th clutch
* The 5th gear is engaged/disengaged with the mainshaft by the 5th clutch
* The reverse gear is engaged/disengaged with the mainshaft by the 5th clutch
* The 3rd gear is splined with the mainshaft and rotates with the mainshaft

Gears on the countershaft:
* The final gear is integral with the countershaft
* The 1st gear, 4th gear, 2nd gear, and park gearare splined with the countershaft, and rotate with the countershaft
* The 5th gear and reverse gear rotate freely from the countershaft. The reverse selector engages 5th gear and reverse gear with the reverse selector hub. The reverse selector hub is splined to the countershaft so 5th gear and reverse gear engage with the countershaft.
* The countershaft 3rd gear is engaged/disengaged with the countershaft by the 3rd clutch.

Gears on the secondary shaft:
* The 1st gear is engaged/disengaged with the secondary shaft by the 1st clutch. The 1st gear is engaged with the secondary shaft by the 1st gear hold clutch and the one-way clutch when decelerating for engine braking.
* The 2nd gear is engaged/disengaged with the secondary shaft by the 2nd clutch.
* The idler gear is splined with the secondary shaft, and rotates with the secondary shaft.

 

I appreciate the insights into the workings of the trans. I will try and find out today what the codes were exactly and then maybe we could match one of the scenarios with the info I get.

How many people have gotten anything form Honda and what did they get?

Can we use that question???

 

Update...the car still sits in their lot...they are calling Acura to get a recomended fix. I will call them today and see what they hear back.

 

Ok so it's two weeks later and I am getting the car back today. It WAS the trans again...that makes this the fifth one in the car! Do I now hold the record or what? How sad is that? At 3500 a piece 14,000 + labor....this stinks for them and me. How long must this go on??? I still have to wait until October for the arbitration hearing!

 

ONE WORD: BRUTAL!