Timing Belt Broke While Driving!!
#82
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
If you're a tech, you should feel like the techs at the Acura dealership where I took the car. They are pissed cause they kept saying, "its shops like this one that gives mechanics a bad name and can't do a simple job right (simple job being proper torque specs)"
#83
B A N N E D
iTrader: (4)
Ha, come on, techs make plenty of money for blue collar labor. They bill longer than it actually takes to do the job, so don't give me the pity story, lol.
My point is, if you're doing someone a favor that is one thing, but if you're getting paid to do a job, it is expected from start to finish that each step is done according to the manual.
Im a cpa and what would you think if I forgot to get you all your money back on your taxes because I took a shortcut and used an excuse that I have to keep paying for continuing education classes.
The point bout the correct bolt doesn't matter, it was a point that saying, if you aren't going to do everything properly, you might as well use the wrong bolt.
Can I ask how many times you've heard of a bolt failing on a light load bearing part? It wasn't a support bolt, it was only holding on the timing belt tensioner, not a very heavy item if you ask me.
My point is, if you're doing someone a favor that is one thing, but if you're getting paid to do a job, it is expected from start to finish that each step is done according to the manual.
Im a cpa and what would you think if I forgot to get you all your money back on your taxes because I took a shortcut and used an excuse that I have to keep paying for continuing education classes.
The point bout the correct bolt doesn't matter, it was a point that saying, if you aren't going to do everything properly, you might as well use the wrong bolt.
Can I ask how many times you've heard of a bolt failing on a light load bearing part? It wasn't a support bolt, it was only holding on the timing belt tensioner, not a very heavy item if you ask me.
and i did get your point about the bolt, thats what the was for
and for the bolts failing like that, not very often at all, but can happen especially when the bearing siezes on it (and that was suppose to be on a non-interference, but it still bent like 8 or 12 out of the 16 valves)
also that bearing it not very lightly loaded, it actually has quite a bit of force on it (by honda service manual it is suppose to take more then 2200 lbs of force to push the piston on the tensioner back)
have you also thought about this, is it that bolt could of been damaged when it was remove from being siezed in the block from waiting so long to do it (only had to be very minor damge) just saying, but yeah they more then likly overtightened it
#84
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Come on, that has to raise your eyebrow like it did the tech at the Acura dealership.. Take a close look at the picture, that dimple shouldn't be there. I have another water pump at home and it doesn't have that indentation.
#85
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Oh ya, also, the tensioner didn't fail, it was in great condition being that the shop last year changed it. The Acura dealership reused the part on the new timing belt installed this week and the tech stated he found the bolt sitting at the bottom of the housing of the timing belt.
#86
B A N N E D
iTrader: (4)
Oh ya, also, the tensioner didn't fail, it was in great condition being that the shop last year changed it. The Acura dealership reused the part on the new timing belt installed this week and the tech stated he found the bolt sitting at the bottom of the housing of the timing belt.
also there is the possibility that water pump was never machined right ethier and it exagerated the shop with overtightening it to get the tensioner bearing arm from seating fully and not wobbleing,
also just to make sure who is the manufacter of that WP
#87
lowrd on tein CS biatch
iTrader: (2)
dude I wasn't being a dick to u. I'm just saying SHIT happens, and maybe people (including myself) have been screwed for much more than 1,2or3K.
I'm just saying it could B worse, and on the same not you may get ur money back also. I live in Canada man. We have the "reasonable person's act" i.e no bullshit court cases... as in serious cases. Unless u have uncontested proof. Which yoy don't really have.
Sure u have the over tightened bolt fact, but there is always some sort of counter-case that may be applicable to that scenario. Like, the bolt was overtightened due to faulty tq wrench setting possibly (he went for a break, found it the tq wrench on the ground, thought nothing of it, but it really had fallen and the settings we messed, which made the bolt mess up.), or some other bs reason.
point is I would be prepared for the worst and if u get the reimbursement then u are ahead.
ask urself when the last time u were F'd? lol
maybe u were due for some bad for a change, who knows
we all get screwed over at some point in our lives for SOME reason, and u could swear it's ONLY you, only you
I'm just saying it could B worse, and on the same not you may get ur money back also. I live in Canada man. We have the "reasonable person's act" i.e no bullshit court cases... as in serious cases. Unless u have uncontested proof. Which yoy don't really have.
Sure u have the over tightened bolt fact, but there is always some sort of counter-case that may be applicable to that scenario. Like, the bolt was overtightened due to faulty tq wrench setting possibly (he went for a break, found it the tq wrench on the ground, thought nothing of it, but it really had fallen and the settings we messed, which made the bolt mess up.), or some other bs reason.
point is I would be prepared for the worst and if u get the reimbursement then u are ahead.
ask urself when the last time u were F'd? lol
maybe u were due for some bad for a change, who knows
we all get screwed over at some point in our lives for SOME reason, and u could swear it's ONLY you, only you
#88
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
The onus falls on the mechanic to follow safety guidelines and not just "make it work", I'm surprised you can't see that.
#89
lowrd on tein CS biatch
iTrader: (2)
I think we all see that man, but WE are car enthusiasts. not government pawns. so it all reality is a flip of a coin really. Being right doesn't mean u'll get whats urs in the courts eyes.
Keep in mind they see this shyt all the time probably so just make sure ur case is thorough, and it won't cost u more than u'll get.
I do think u can/should get urs... but it doesn't mean jack until the hammer is dropped
Keep in mind they see this shyt all the time probably so just make sure ur case is thorough, and it won't cost u more than u'll get.
I do think u can/should get urs... but it doesn't mean jack until the hammer is dropped
#90
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Sure u have the over tightened bolt fact, but there is always some sort of counter-case that may be applicable to that scenario. Like, the bolt was overtightened due to faulty tq wrench setting possibly (he went for a break, found it the tq wrench on the ground, thought nothing of it, but it really had fallen and the settings we messed, which made the bolt mess up.), or some other bs reason.
But in the states, the shop is responsible for the mechanics work since he is an employee. If he messes up, the shop bears the burden to accept responsibility for his work.
So it doesn't matter how he screwed up, the point is that he did mess up regardless if it was a toothpick that was stuck in his shoe and jabbed him at the exact moment he was torquing the bolt and lead him to be cross-eyed with pain and made him misread the torque wrench.. It doesn't matter, lol, he messed up.
Also, we have small claims court in the US, it's going to cost me $25 to take them to court.
Last edited by pits200; 12-02-2009 at 11:29 PM.
#91
B A N N E D
iTrader: (4)
I understand this stuff, but you're validating my point, if they couldn't get it to sit right, they shouldn't just keep tightening such an important bolt when you know that putting more stress on a certain area can lead to bolt failure. Go grab one of the other 50 water pumps from the back and get one with better threads so it torques in properly.
The onus falls on the mechanic to follow safety guidelines and not just "make it work", I'm surprised you can't see that.
The onus falls on the mechanic to follow safety guidelines and not just "make it work", I'm surprised you can't see that.
anyway gotto go now i gotta work in the mourning so talk to you all later
#93
I ♡ PEK PEK
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Across the River from Manhattan
Posts: 988
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm honestly surprised by everyone's answers. I have 3 lawyers in my family and all of them say the same thing.
"This case is absolutely simple.."
1.) I have the proof of over torquing
2.) I have the sworn affidavit from the Acura Dealership
Seriously, I hope people don't take things so easily when you get f'ed over.
"This case is absolutely simple.."
1.) I have the proof of over torquing
2.) I have the sworn affidavit from the Acura Dealership
Seriously, I hope people don't take things so easily when you get f'ed over.
#94
wham bam thank you ma'am
iTrader: (8)
I think we all see that man, but WE are car enthusiasts. not government pawns. so it all reality is a flip of a coin really. Being right doesn't mean u'll get whats urs in the courts eyes.
Keep in mind they see this shyt all the time probably so just make sure ur case is thorough, and it won't cost u more than u'll get.
I do think u can/should get urs... but it doesn't mean jack until the hammer is dropped
Keep in mind they see this shyt all the time probably so just make sure ur case is thorough, and it won't cost u more than u'll get.
I do think u can/should get urs... but it doesn't mean jack until the hammer is dropped
shit happens?
op- did the shop take pic of the water pump installed with the broken bolt?
#95
Three Wheelin'
Not a moot point at all.
The improper install is covered as a defect in workmanship under the same 12/12 warranty as the parts. In this case the defect in workmanship didn't come up until 45k (33k after the warranty expired).
I hope you get something but I think you are screwed.
The improper install is covered as a defect in workmanship under the same 12/12 warranty as the parts. In this case the defect in workmanship didn't come up until 45k (33k after the warranty expired).
I hope you get something but I think you are screwed.
Alot of people are talking and giving wrong advice here. Some real dumbass remarks.
People, OWN what you say! If you gonna say it make sure its correct.
Pitts has a very valid case here. Im sure his family of attorneys have more of a clue than a buch of guys on the forums giving their 2 cents.
#96
Three Wheelin'
dude I wasn't being a dick to u. I'm just saying SHIT happens, and maybe people (including myself) have been screwed for much more than 1,2or3K.
I'm just saying it could B worse, and on the same not you may get ur money back also. I live in Canada man. We have the "reasonable person's act" i.e no bullshit court cases... as in serious cases. Unless u have uncontested proof. Which yoy don't really have.
Sure u have the over tightened bolt fact, but there is always some sort of counter-case that may be applicable to that scenario. Like, the bolt was overtightened due to faulty tq wrench setting possibly (he went for a break, found it the tq wrench on the ground, thought nothing of it, but it really had fallen and the settings we messed, which made the bolt mess up.), or some other bs reason.
point is I would be prepared for the worst and if u get the reimbursement then u are ahead.
ask urself when the last time u were F'd? lol
maybe u were due for some bad for a change, who knows
we all get screwed over at some point in our lives for SOME reason, and u could swear it's ONLY you, only you
I'm just saying it could B worse, and on the same not you may get ur money back also. I live in Canada man. We have the "reasonable person's act" i.e no bullshit court cases... as in serious cases. Unless u have uncontested proof. Which yoy don't really have.
Sure u have the over tightened bolt fact, but there is always some sort of counter-case that may be applicable to that scenario. Like, the bolt was overtightened due to faulty tq wrench setting possibly (he went for a break, found it the tq wrench on the ground, thought nothing of it, but it really had fallen and the settings we messed, which made the bolt mess up.), or some other bs reason.
point is I would be prepared for the worst and if u get the reimbursement then u are ahead.
ask urself when the last time u were F'd? lol
maybe u were due for some bad for a change, who knows
we all get screwed over at some point in our lives for SOME reason, and u could swear it's ONLY you, only you
He never claimed he is the only one getting screwed.
Dude why don't you go buy some more Ebay Rotors for you car.
It's a very simple thing here. His shit was improperly installed! If he can prove it he should be entilteled to compensation.
Also remember he has a lawyer in the family taking the case for free and to file a suit in small claims is $25. How is it going to cost more then he would need to get his engine fixed.
#97
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
This is an aftermarket water pump, so I know the comparison isn't completely valid comparing it to a OEM pump.
I'm going to track down the kind of water pump the shop used and compare it apples to apples.
#98
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Do you have any proof that the original shop that did your timing belt was the one that over torqued the bolt? It did happen 45K miles later. I don't exactly know how much time it took you to accumulate that mileage but the shop can always say anything can happen during that time.
I mean, you can say that in any case. If this was an easily accessible part, then I could see that. But I'd have to pay someone a few hundred dollars to get to the timing belt tensioner and over tighten the bolt and I'm not sure for what gain, my car ran great. Like I said, you could use that logic in any case then, when someone changes your oil, who doesn't say someone goes underneth and loosens the oil filter and has it fall off.
It took about 16 months to accumulate those miles. But I do all easy highway miles.
#99
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
How in the hell would a faulty TQ wrench setting be a counter to his case. That is about retarted. Wow, how the fuck do you come up with this shit. So your saying it Pitts fault that the mechanic used the wrong setting on the wrench?
He never claimed he is the only one getting screwed.
Dude why don't you go buy some more Ebay Rotors for you car.
It's a very simple thing here. His shit was improperly installed! If he can prove it he should be entilteled to compensation.
Also remember he has a lawyer in the family taking the case for free and to file a suit in small claims is $25. How is it going to cost more then he would need to get his engine fixed.
He never claimed he is the only one getting screwed.
Dude why don't you go buy some more Ebay Rotors for you car.
It's a very simple thing here. His shit was improperly installed! If he can prove it he should be entilteled to compensation.
Also remember he has a lawyer in the family taking the case for free and to file a suit in small claims is $25. How is it going to cost more then he would need to get his engine fixed.
You are using an extreme case to prove that faulty workmanship led to the issue, whether it severely impacts a person through an accident or monetary lose. And that is the perfect point, whether its a big or small mistake, its still negligence.
#100
He may be at "fault", but trying to recover damages when the problem shows up after the warranty has expired is another matter.
#101
Suzuka Master
iTrader: (10)
Ya, I have a new Honda water pump at home too and I called my dad to go and look at it and we did a comparison over the phone and there is no dimple.
This is an aftermarket water pump, so I know the comparison isn't completely valid comparing it to a OEM pump.
I'm going to track down the kind of water pump the shop used and compare it apples to apples.
This is an aftermarket water pump, so I know the comparison isn't completely valid comparing it to a OEM pump.
I'm going to track down the kind of water pump the shop used and compare it apples to apples.
#103
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Exactly, and I called every dealership of every type. Acura, Honda, GM, random shops and none of them have ever head of a bolt failing on a timing belt tensioner and they all say the only reason that would happen is because of over torquing.
The tensioner didn't seize up causing excess stress on the bolt, it was just the guy obviously used his impact gun on a part that shouldn't have been tightened so much.
By the way, does anyone know the exact torque specs for that bolt.
#104
I Drive Like A Dick 8≈
How in the hell would a faulty TQ wrench setting be a counter to his case. That is about retarted. Wow, how the fuck do you come up with this shit. So your saying it Pitts fault that the mechanic used the wrong setting on the wrench?
He never claimed he is the only one getting screwed.
Dude why don't you go buy some more Ebay Rotors for you car.
It's a very simple thing here. His shit was improperly installed! If he can prove it he should be entilteled to compensation.
Also remember he has a lawyer in the family taking the case for free and to file a suit in small claims is $25. How is it going to cost more then he would need to get his engine fixed.
He never claimed he is the only one getting screwed.
Dude why don't you go buy some more Ebay Rotors for you car.
It's a very simple thing here. His shit was improperly installed! If he can prove it he should be entilteled to compensation.
Also remember he has a lawyer in the family taking the case for free and to file a suit in small claims is $25. How is it going to cost more then he would need to get his engine fixed.
#105
Three Wheelin'
Really? What is so hard to under stand about this?
#106
WOW you just dont get it do you? Improper install has nothing to do with the warranty! Warranty of the belt IS A MOOT POINT! He is not holding the belt manufature liable. He is going after the shop for improper install.
Really? What is so hard to under stand about this?
Really? What is so hard to under stand about this?
You don't seem to grasp the concept that it's the total job that is under warranty-parts and the labor to install them-and that this warranty is for a specified time.
If the belt had broken or the improper installation had come to light during the warranty period the op would have been covered. As it appeared well after the warranty ran out he's likely out of luck.
#107
Three Wheelin'
Do you really think that while the warranty on the belt has expired, that the warranty on installation goes on forever?
You don't seem to grasp the concept that it's the total job that is under warranty-parts and the labor to install them-and that this warranty is for a specified time.
If the belt had broken or the improper installation had come to light during the warranty period the op would have been covered. As it appeared well after the warranty ran out he's likely out of luck.
You don't seem to grasp the concept that it's the total job that is under warranty-parts and the labor to install them-and that this warranty is for a specified time.
If the belt had broken or the improper installation had come to light during the warranty period the op would have been covered. As it appeared well after the warranty ran out he's likely out of luck.
Who's warranty are you refering to. The shop or the manufacture of the belt. They are completly seperate!
Either way it does not matter as the install was never completed correctly!
If the bolt had just broke, I could understand, but there is proof of over Torque resulting in ther failure.
#108
lowrd on tein CS biatch
iTrader: (2)
yea man I hope u get what u deserve (ur motor in preemo condition)... it's just a hard thing to prove in this world. And the excuse they CAN come up with IE like a tq wrench being out of wack(that's just an example) therfore the mechanic coudl SAY he tq'd it to what he thought was spec. therefore it's not the mechanics fault, but a result of the circumstances... I am no lawyer but we all know how BS is somehow valid in the court of law. so just because we may think it's so obvious, it really has to be over the top evident where the wrong was done
There are so many loopholes in the system, that's all i'm saying.
Which is why u need a lot of uncontested proof so there is only one place to point ur finger
There are so many loopholes in the system, that's all i'm saying.
Which is why u need a lot of uncontested proof so there is only one place to point ur finger
Last edited by CL-S progression 01; 12-03-2009 at 04:33 PM.
#109
Suzuka Master
iTrader: (3)
yea man I hope u get what u deserve (ur motor in preemo condition)... it's just a hard thing to prove in this world. And the excuse they CAN come up with IE like a tq wrench being out of wack(that's just an example) therfore the mechanic coudl SAY he tq'd it to what he thought was spec. therefore it's not the mechanics fault, but a result of the circumstances... I am no lawyer but we all know how BS is somehow valid in the court of law. so just because we may think it's so obvious, it really has to be over the top evident where the wrong was done
There are so many loopholes in the system, that's all i'm saying.
Which is why u need a lot of uncontested proof so there is only one place to point ur finger
There are so many loopholes in the system, that's all i'm saying.
Which is why u need a lot of uncontested proof so there is only one place to point ur finger
#110
I Wanna Beer
This whole thread is a clusterfuck. In the end I'd almost be willing to put money on nothing coming of it and the OP having to pay for everything outta pocket. Typical internet thread of "I'm gonna sue" that ends with nothing happening.
#112
Suzuka Master
iTrader: (1)
It appears that the bolt in question is called the 'Timing belt adjuster bolt'. This, inturn, holds the 'Timing belt adjuster' to the water pump housing.
http://www.acuraoemparts.com/delray/...All&vinsrch=no
I looked throughout the manual for the torque spec for that particular bolt; however, I can not seem to find it. Maybe an actual Honda tech can chime in with their experience.
The torque spec's I could find are as follows:
Autotensioner bolts=8.7lbf-ft.
Idler pulley bolt=33lbf-ft.
Water pump bolts=8.7lbf-ft.
Moreover, I would'nt think that the torque would be any more then the spec for the Idler pulley bolt (no less than 29 perhaps), though. Will keep looking through the manual.
http://www.acuraoemparts.com/delray/...All&vinsrch=no
I looked throughout the manual for the torque spec for that particular bolt; however, I can not seem to find it. Maybe an actual Honda tech can chime in with their experience.
The torque spec's I could find are as follows:
Autotensioner bolts=8.7lbf-ft.
Idler pulley bolt=33lbf-ft.
Water pump bolts=8.7lbf-ft.
Moreover, I would'nt think that the torque would be any more then the spec for the Idler pulley bolt (no less than 29 perhaps), though. Will keep looking through the manual.
#113
Missing my
Wow, we got a lot of armchair lawyers in here! Now it's my turn! LOL!
The bottom line is that every state (and certainly every country) has their own laws regarding consumer and service relationships. I will say that if this happened in CA, you would have a great chance of winning in court. I have some experience in small claims, and several lawyers I've spoken to over the years agree that small claims court judges tend to halve the award amount. In other words, you ask for $5k you will probably get $2-$3k. That is also what I experienced in my case.
The fact that the bolt was over-torqued SHOULD make the shop responsible for the work beyond the warranty. The fact that so many Acura/Honda techs have corroborated the story only gives your argument strength. Maybe this shop should reduce the number of water pumps it replaces from 300 to 150 so they can focus on quality instead of quantity.
I really hope this works out for you man. It sucks to get screwed over with no retribution. Keep us posted.
The bottom line is that every state (and certainly every country) has their own laws regarding consumer and service relationships. I will say that if this happened in CA, you would have a great chance of winning in court. I have some experience in small claims, and several lawyers I've spoken to over the years agree that small claims court judges tend to halve the award amount. In other words, you ask for $5k you will probably get $2-$3k. That is also what I experienced in my case.
The fact that the bolt was over-torqued SHOULD make the shop responsible for the work beyond the warranty. The fact that so many Acura/Honda techs have corroborated the story only gives your argument strength. Maybe this shop should reduce the number of water pumps it replaces from 300 to 150 so they can focus on quality instead of quantity.
I really hope this works out for you man. It sucks to get screwed over with no retribution. Keep us posted.
#114
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Please stop posting in here, you're acting like I'm suing for no reason. Any lawyer would agree with my story and I'm not just saying that because they want to make money.
This is small claims court where a lawyer technically does not come into play.
I'll bet you $20 that I get a favorable judgment from the court. Not quiet sure why you are slow on the pickup.
Think of this, a mechanic forgets to put the brake line bolt in and 1.5 years down the road, it gets caught up and frays the line leading to massive brake failure and you crash head on into a bus and go up in a fiery mess.
HMMMM, i guess the mechanic wasn't responsible for not properly putting your car back together.
#115
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
It appears that the bolt in question is called the 'Timing belt adjuster bolt'. This, inturn, holds the 'Timing belt adjuster' to the water pump housing.
http://www.acuraoemparts.com/delray/...All&vinsrch=no
I looked throughout the manual for the torque spec for that particular bolt; however, I can not seem to find it. Maybe an actual Honda tech can chime in with their experience.
The torque spec's I could find are as follows:
Autotensioner bolts=8.7lbf-ft.
Idler pulley bolt=33lbf-ft.
Water pump bolts=8.7lbf-ft.
Moreover, I would'nt think that the torque would be any more then the spec for the Idler pulley bolt (no less than 29 perhaps), though. Will keep looking through the manual.
http://www.acuraoemparts.com/delray/...All&vinsrch=no
I looked throughout the manual for the torque spec for that particular bolt; however, I can not seem to find it. Maybe an actual Honda tech can chime in with their experience.
The torque spec's I could find are as follows:
Autotensioner bolts=8.7lbf-ft.
Idler pulley bolt=33lbf-ft.
Water pump bolts=8.7lbf-ft.
Moreover, I would'nt think that the torque would be any more then the spec for the Idler pulley bolt (no less than 29 perhaps), though. Will keep looking through the manual.
Thanks again, I appreciate your research.
#116
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Wow, we got a lot of armchair lawyers in here! Now it's my turn! LOL!
The bottom line is that every state (and certainly every country) has their own laws regarding consumer and service relationships. I will say that if this happened in CA, you would have a great chance of winning in court. I have some experience in small claims, and several lawyers I've spoken to over the years agree that small claims court judges tend to halve the award amount. In other words, you ask for $5k you will probably get $2-$3k. That is also what I experienced in my case.
The fact that the bolt was over-torqued SHOULD make the shop responsible for the work beyond the warranty. The fact that so many Acura/Honda techs have corroborated the story only gives your argument strength. Maybe this shop should reduce the number of water pumps it replaces from 300 to 150 so they can focus on quality instead of quantity.
I really hope this works out for you man. It sucks to get screwed over with no retribution. Keep us posted.
The bottom line is that every state (and certainly every country) has their own laws regarding consumer and service relationships. I will say that if this happened in CA, you would have a great chance of winning in court. I have some experience in small claims, and several lawyers I've spoken to over the years agree that small claims court judges tend to halve the award amount. In other words, you ask for $5k you will probably get $2-$3k. That is also what I experienced in my case.
The fact that the bolt was over-torqued SHOULD make the shop responsible for the work beyond the warranty. The fact that so many Acura/Honda techs have corroborated the story only gives your argument strength. Maybe this shop should reduce the number of water pumps it replaces from 300 to 150 so they can focus on quality instead of quantity.
I really hope this works out for you man. It sucks to get screwed over with no retribution. Keep us posted.
But based on the pictures and the Acura techs agreeing with me, do you guys feel the same way that the over torquing caused the failure??? or am I in the minority here???
#117
#119
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
The shop warranty doesn't matter, try to think outside the box man. Use another situation where its more clear cut. Lets say a company was suppose to put a new air filter into your car and FORGOT to.
One day down the road well outside the warranty period of the air filter your engine takes a crap and the mechanic tells you "hey, you know there is no air filter in your car and that's why your engine died"
Would you let the mechanic who was suppose to do the air filter install off scott free because its outside their warranty period.
I'm not sure how many more situations I can give you that make complete sense.