2001 Acura CL 3.2 about 160K, second tranny.

I am trying to diagnose a problem that has cropped up out of the blue. Please don’t call me a dumb ass even if I deserve it, I’m here to learn something I don’t already know!

I was heading down the freeway when my check engine light started flashing, and the car hiccupped a little. Gauges looked normal. I pulled over, shut her down, and checked it out under the hood. Nothing looked bad, oil level fine and reasonably clean, etc. Well, maybe bad gas I thought. So I proceeded.

For 20 min: no bad lights at all, ran fine. Then, as I was heading up a hill, the CEL came on again (flashing, then steady), the car began to run rough, and then a few seconds later, the TCS light came on. I checked the gauges (all still fine), pulled over real quick and popped the hood again. Nothing out of the ordinary, in fact no more rough running. Started her up, CEL on, no TCS light. Ran fine.

I was near the end of a long-ish trip, and in no position to call for a tow (no cell service, late at night, not call boxes...) so I decided to ride it out. Hey, an emissions control issue is not that big a deal, right?

So as I approached the 3 miles away mark, the CEL light kept coming on every few minutes, and flashing, and the car was running rough. I kept going, coasting a long hill in neutral and really babying it. When I got to the one block away mark, I started to hear a loud ticking noise, but the car was still moving and it was so close, so I coasted in and parked in my driveway, just applying power briefly to scooch through a stop sign (read: run it). It was 3 a.m. so I went to bed. The next day, I went out and checked on all fluid levels, belts, etc., and still all looked fine.

I went in and turned her over, and sure enough, loud ticking, but she ran. So I shut it down and went to research the web. I didn't really find anything that describes my situation. Next, I borrowed my brother’s OBD reader. It couldn’t read the codes. Unfortunately, it was night by the time that happened, and well… I left the dome light on…

2 days later, after I had my own reader, I went back in and checked the codes. Showed some misfire codes that I didn’t write down. What I didn’t know was that the battery was drained, so when I went to start the car, *POOF!*, battery went flat, and all codes were erased!

So now, here I am, with the battery charged. I have no codes, no CEL, no TCS light, but still have a loud ticking/clicking that comes from the front half of the engine, near the center cylinder on that side. It is definitely physical, rather than electrical, because you can feel it when you touch the engine. I carefully cleaned out the gunk from the EGR valve area (I think that’s what it is) under the top plate on the engine (it was a mess), but that did nothing.

The tick is REALLY LOUD guys. It is present mostly during low RPM’s and “disappears” by about 3500, but resumes LOUD ticking as the RPM’s drop. It’s not like the standard Honda engine ticking that I have had for about a year now (which I would describe as subtle, but noticeable, arguably annoying, but doesn’t sound dangerous if you know what it is …).

I don’t have the money to take it to a mechanic, and I have tools and work on cars regularly with success, so I’d like to explore a fix myself. I just don’t know where to start with this one. This is the newest car I’ve owned, so it’s a bit intimidating trying to diagnose it.

Any help with this would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance!

 

Oh yeah, and I'm afraid to drive it with the ticking like it is.

 

And also, I had the car in to get it's 120K service... at 137K...

Just looked at my records, car has 154K. Tranny done at 99,957...

 

Sounds like your valves are way out of spec. Hopefully running the engine that way didnt bend a valve or two.

You can adjust the valves with the engine in the car, but replacing them is a heads-off procedure.

 

First of all, nice avatar civicdrivr! Second, thanks for the reply.

Now, on to the new info I just got.

I ran back out there after I posted and decided to just check things out a bit more. I let it idle, and eventually, at about 1/2 way to warmed up (ticking all the time), the CEL started flashing again, and I got a few codes:

P0300: Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected
P0305: Cylinder 5 Misfire Detected
P0300: Cylinder 3 Misfire Detected

and after it warmed up completely, the clicking/ticking sound stopped! This is weird, considering that it started while the car was hot. Could it be that misfires caused a valve to stick, and that it has now unstuck?

Next, while parked and idling, with the CEL flashing over and over, the TCS light came on again. I turned the car off, and started it again, and the CEL stayed on, but the TCS was off. After a bit, it came back on again.

So basically, I think the exact same set of conditions has been duplicated, without even driving the car.

So, with this new info, anyone want to take a stab at causes? A bad coil on Cyl 5 (the first one to report as bad) maybe? Could I swap coils between cylinders and see if I get a new set of misfires?

Thanks again to all,

-fust

 

Valves out of spec will cause a misfire. Pull and inspect the plugs though. A member here recently had a spark plug separate, which cause a ticking noise and a misfire.

 

OK, I'll do that (plugs). I tried to search these forum for a similar situation, but for some reason I couldn't find anything...

So, the one thing I wonder about the valves possibly being out of spec, is isn't valves being out of spec something that is more of a slow onset type of problem, rather than a sudden thing?

 

Its possible theyve been out of spec the whole time and progressively getting worse until this issue popped up. The J series does have a pretty noisy valve train, so its hard to tell whats in spec and whats out of spec just with your ears.

 

Hmm, I'm not trying to second guess, but this was definately an "event." "No ticking" (or normal ticking) to suddenly very loud clicking out of the blue. The mechanic who did the service, who is not an acura tech but is very experienced (40+ years with honda), heard the "normal" tick and said it was just that: normal.

This is sudden and much more extreme. I'll have a look at the plugs.

 

OK, broken sparkplug at #5 was it...

The chunk in the cylinder punched the plug out, stripped the threads, broke the coil, and my mechanic told me there is a 75% chance that the piston or cylinder is also damaged… He said it would realistically cost $450 to re-helix the plug threads (because of the location of the affected cylinder), and even then it’s a craps shoot (25% chance) that the repair will even work because of the likelihood the cylinder or piston is damaged. He said he won’t be able to tell until the re-helix is done (and I pay the $450).

Bluebook for the car is about 4K. The car is paid for. I can get a used engine for +/- $500 locally, but I’m also at 55K with the current tranny. Reman tranny is $2800 (worst case scenario, from the dealership). I have a ghetto ’94 Toyota Tercel I can drive while this all goes down, but I won’t have enough to flat out replace the Acura with a comparable vehicle for at least a couple of years (my credit sucks).

Does it make sense to swap just the engine? Should I swap both the engine and tranny now (or more likely over the next 6 months) or should I just scrap it and put the money toward another car?

Damn, I guess I’m glad I kept the Tercel, since the Acura was supposed to be its replacement!

 

Sorry, forgot to mention that my mechanic said a minimum $1200 additional if the re-helix is not the only problem, and also said that since his shop is only grandfathered-in to the location where he is, for some reason (having to do with local zoning), he is not even allowed to do an engine swap. I would be doing it myself, which I am confident I can do, with help from some friends.

 

If those are your only two options, get a new engine. Pick up a shop manual too. If you have all the tools, it should take no longer then a weekend if you take your time.

I thought the #5 cylinder was the middle cylinder on the front bank?

 

I have no idea why but engines for these cars are dirt cheap. I also don't know how it is where you live but around here (specifically, at my mechanic's place) an engine swap is not at all expensive; my guy will pull the old one and put in a new one for a couple of hundred bucks. So if its anything like that in your neck of the woods a straight up replacement engine makes all the sense in the world. I don't know why you're talking about the transmission, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

 

These engines aren't very valuable since they arent in demand. The aftermarket is starting to grow though since swaps in Civics and Integras are becoming a bit more popular (not as quickly as some would hope though). We've already seen the engines jump in price in the past. You used to be able to source a complete low mile J32A2 for ~$400. Not theyre going for about $600+ with high mileage.

But OP, where are you located?

 

OK, well I am actually going for option 3: do the re-helix myself, and then see if the engine is toast. Can someone confirm that cylinder #5 is in fact the front center cylinder?

I was reading in another forum that a piece of spark plug in the cylinder, while certainly nothing you want to happen, is maybe not a complete disaster for the engine. I'm guessing though that it might be worse for the head, considering that there are so many moving parts up there. Like, isn't it more likely that a valve stem is bent than that there is damage to the piston or cylinder?

 

Also, anyone wish to comment on what they think is the best re-thread system? Is save-a-thread good? Their system looked like it might be a bit "safer" since you don't have to worry about the little tab that needs to be broken off after the thread insert is in place.

 

And what set I will need for the Acura 3.2 spark plug?

 

When you're facing firewall that are cylinders in order.

1-2-3
4-5-6

Same thing happened to me before and i did rehelix the thread and engine is fine. Do you have that spark plug ? Can you post a picture of it im gonna try to help you step by step what to do. If the spark plug didnt break you should be fine. I made a special tool to do that that iam willing to send it to you/borrow it if you want. There is a kit in autozone that you must buy.

I thought that i replied to this thread already.

 

Hey, thanks for the offer of help, it's really great to be a part of this community.

I don't have the plug right now, but it did break. Brutalized the threads in the head, too.

My mechanic used a flouroscope to have a look, and said he could see that there were small parts in the cylinder.

Another forum I read (and damned if I can remember where-not acurazine) said that small pieces from a spark plug would probably not be a huge issue, since they are small and would probably just exit through the exhaust port at some time. The argument was that the pieces would be too small to ever be sandwiched anywhere that they could do damage. I don't know if I believe that or not.

Couldn't I use a magnet to get the pieces out?

 

It all depends on what part of the plug is in there. Ceramic isn't magnetic, and I would be worried about it floating around in the cylinder.

 

I went ahead and ordered , to rehelix the plug seat. It has a solid insert with teeth at the top that you set with an expander punch after the unit is in place.

My mechanic said that was his favorite, with JB weld to hold it in.

 

you can use the magnet but the main question is if the spark plug flew off like mine did so basicly whatever was in there was thrown out through the spark plug "hole" what you have to do is to tap new bigger thread but striped thread or the pieces wont come out with the magnet because its aluminium you will have to start the car without the spark plug to make sure they will exit the cylinder... if there is a piece of an electrode of the sparkplug inside cylinder you should be able to get it out but i highly doubt its in there... let me know i will try post some pics of what i used etc... i also did put small rag into the cylinder and made a custom hook to pull it out after i tap the thread but i dont think it worked... i can not warranty that it will work but its worth to try...

 

yes thats what it is i didnt use jb weld though

 

OK, thanks.

What type of tool did you make? Since my mechanic told me that the threads were totally stripped out, hence no pilot threads to get started on, I was thinking I could make a jig to get the new threads straight. Maybe with a couple of straight bars attached to each other, that have three holes in them, one above each cylinder, to keep the center aligned. I drew a pic, but I can't attach it...

Actually, making that might be harder than just being super careful as I tap the hole...

 

well my tool was a taper that i welded to a 6" extension with 3/8 drive because i would be able to pull it back just keep in mind that

 

Yeah, that's right, it's pretty deep in there... I wonder if I could use a guide tube of some sort that fits into the coil tube, that the tapper slides into pretty snug while it taps, to keep it straight. I believe the tool I ordered has a 3/8" drive, and I will be using a socket extension to get down in there. Maybe just a couple of bushings that fit snug in the tube and on the extension, but still allow rotation, would work to keep things centered.

 

no need for bushings but you should weld a extension socket to the tapper just to be safe the extension itself is wide enough to keep the tapper in center. Good luck ! keep us posted

 

OK, I am still waiting for the kit.

The idea for some kind of bushing to keep things centered is based on the fact that my mechanic said the threads are toast, so nothing for the tapper to grab ahold of to get started. I just hope he's wrong, so I don't have to thing about it!

 

Any update ?

 

Sorry to keep you all hanging.

YEAAAAHHH!!! FIXED IT!!!!!!

It was in fact nothing but the spark plug that blew out. I re-tapped it, and I'm back in business! No need for any fancy jigs or anything; there were enough pilot threads. Hardest part was getting the spark plug out without the insert coming out too! I ended up putting some black RTV on the insert ( I was out of The Right Stuff...), some light grease on the plug threads, tried not to over-tighten it, and let it set overnight. Next day it came out fine, so I tapped the insert barbs in and we're done!

I think the plug had been loose for a while, because before this happened I had this ticking noise for a while that sounded just like lifter click. I looked into it when it started, and found info to the effect that these cars can have lifter click noise when the engine ages, and it's too much trouble to adjust the valves, so you just wait until you have to go in there for something else, no harm done. I thought that was it, but I'm guessing now the noise was the spark plug constantly hitting the threads it was loose in, wearing them out after hundreds of miles of driving, until it couldn't stay in anymore.

I think this because, once I fixed the plug, no more ticking noise at all. Everything is 100% back to normal!

Now, I don't want to point fingers, but the last person to turn a wrench on my spark plugs was my mechanic at the 125K (or whatever) inspection... I always torque to spec, but I can't say whether he does or not.

 

Oh yeah, another thing that stumped my mechanic that I figured out on the web (he's an import mechanic, not an Acura mechanic), is the fact that 2001 Acura CLs have a safety program in the brain that disables the fuel pump when you turn the car off if it detects something seriously wrong with the engine. Presumably, that's to keep you from being able to restart the engine after a major engine malfunction, to prevent further damage. We couldn't figure out why the car wouldn't start for no fuel delivery after it had been run with no plug/coil for testing. But if the battery was disconnected over night, then reconnected in the morning, it would start right up. Once. Then it wouldn't start again until you let it sit with the battery disconnected.

Turns out that to get the car to start again, all you have to do is remove one of the fuses in the under-hood fuse block for a bit to clear the "no-start" setting. Stupedist thing in the world is that this does not show up as a CEL code, so we had no idea why it wouldn't start. And I guess letting it sit with no battery over night did the same thing as pulling the fuse. For some reason, maybe because of the sheer number of "my car won't start!!" references on the web, I found the info in only one place... FINALLY after long searching. Of course, now I can't remember which fuse you are supposed to pull. I have it written down. I'll re-post when I find it.

 

congrats !