SPoolinspOON

iTrader: (5)

So I got in touch with MFactory to manufacture some cam gears for us . Now there is a minimum order for manufacturing. The more they make, the less it would be for each set.

Do the gears have the same patterns on all J series motors?


I want to buy List
1. SpoolinSpoon

phee

iTrader: (5)

whats the purpose of the cam gearS?

SPoolinspOON

iTrader: (5)

adjustable cam gears to tune cam timing

Nersh7

my noobness says to ask what advantage that would have? and what would a ball park guess on the cost be?

I want to jump on this just to have more shit being made of our engine

SPoolinspOON

iTrader: (5)

being able to adjust timing on the cam will yield more power on the power band. Of course playing with timing is best on the dyno as you will see gains. There are a few people that have rebuilt their motors and with the extra displacement, i'm sure advancing timing at higher RPM's will open up the motor more.

SPoolinspOON

iTrader: (5)

So I got a reply back from MFactory...

"
The minimum order quantity for a run of cam gears is 50 units (i.e 25 sets). Our normal cost for this quantity is usually around $100 per set, but the final price can only be calculated after we receive the sample. The specifications would be:

- Constructed from Forged 7075 Aluminum
- Vernier-Scale providing 0.5 degree cam angle adjustments makes these gears the most accurate on the market
- Laser-etched timing marks provide +/- 15 degrees of crank angle adjustment
- Hard surface coating ensures the highest of quality and reliability
- Textured outer ring provides extra grip for your timing belt
- Inner & Outer ring balanced up to 12,000rpm
"

nf3d0149ab

iTrader: (5)

Interesante.....

brian6speed

iTrader: (5)

Good luck getting 25 ppl to go in on this. Not that many cl's with even built engines. Id say just get a one-off custom or wait for more aftermarket support that should come from all the j-swaps. (We cant even get 5 ppl to put deposits down for a roof spoiler just as a reference to how hard it is to get stuff made).

phee

iTrader: (5)

for 100 bucks im in. thats cheap as shit

Nersh7

ya for 100 bucks I'm down

Nersh7

I'll build my motor later and get these now. and if not who knows maybe they will be worth more when J swaps become more popular
you should post this up on the TL side as well

SPoolinspOON

iTrader: (5)

Only potential problem I can see now is getting the pickup to work on the cam gears and the issue of people with different motors having different cams for each motor. ie J32a2, J35a4, etc

TheWeez

Gonna be hard to get 25 people. This mod is pretty worthless on all but maybe a half dozen of the cars on this board and even that estimate is generous. Plus you'll be better adjusting timing using something like a emanage.

assclown

iTrader: (1)

not to mention the 6spd versions have different cam gears also

Rajca

iTrader: (8)

6spd have one diff gear, the magnets are a problem. u would need to locate them somewhere and usually they end up where the adjustable slots would be.

not only cl. but tl and j swapped cars would buy these. for $100 im down

SlickShiftNall6

iTrader: (4)

+1
Was just going to mention that. I think Legendary member Jproy figured that out when swapping in an auto motor and it didn't run right.

Our cam gears are not all that easy to get too. Most novice modders would have to pay for installation. Not to mention the cam gears won't be noticeable from the outside unless you cut the valve cover like the B-series guys do. So the guys buying for engine bling status won't be all that excited.

However even if they are a gram lighter than oem we could see an increase in performance simply by reducing rotational mass. For a hundred bucks a pair I'd buy em!

assclown

iTrader: (1)

i went on V*6*P* and quoted from Kris's (fsttyms1) thread that showed the difference

phee

iTrader: (5)

nvm. im out. too many differences/

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

If they get them to work properly Im in.

Rajca

iTrader: (8)

phee, ur running richies module correct?

phee

iTrader: (5)

yes i am.

IDon'tKnow

OK Guys, here's the deal. I think trying to modify the OE cam gear to become adjustable is going to turn out to be more trouble than it is worth. My project requires adjustable cam gears, and since no manufacturers out there are willing to come out with a design for the J.... I will.

Having a machine shop build just one gear is going to be tedious, manual, and expensive. It would be much preferable if I could get a handful of guys on board to produce a small batch set; ~10 sets. Less is possible but the pricing for this sort of thing increases significantly for smaller batches in per capita terms.

The logistics will go something like this:
Step 1: 10 Group buyers commit to purchasing a set (est. price will be $250-$350 per pair)
Step 2: Group reviews technical drawings and quotes for machine services and materials.
Step 3: Group commits to project and collects funds for production - Note: I am not trying to make a profit with this; this will be ~@ cost.
Step 4: Group waits ~4 weeks for machine work to be completed
Step 5: All machined parts arrive at my home; I remove center pieces and ship them to a friend to machine timing marks and logo (hmm... what logo?) into gears; this will be much cheaper than having the machine shop handle it.
Step 6: I assemble all cam gears and ship to you.

My design will be as follows:
- Steel (or 6061 or 7075 if possible) gear
- 6061 aluminum center
- 4 Class 12.9 (above grade 8) socket cap screw fasteners
- Keyway will go from being machined into the cam gear to a standard Honda keyway.
- OEM Cam Angle Sensor trigger will still be functional; it will be a separate piece, and I need someone willing to test this for me prior to having a bulk order done. Testing will be done with an OE cam gear, custom trigger wheel (same pattern), and the original triggers ground off of the OE gear.Here are a few pictures just to give you an idea what I'm thinking of. They are not to scale, layered, or detailed, just a basic design idea. If you want to give some input as to the design, I'm open to suggestions.





So who's game and ready to get this ball rolling?

Rajca

iTrader: (8)

how confident r u that this will work out? what about the magnets? also is this gonna be for the 6spd or auto?

IDon'tKnow

I'm very confident. The possible road block that I see is the trigger wheel, and that can be figured out before anyone commits any funds to the project by testing with a modified OE pulley.

The trigger wheel that is incorporated in the OEM cam gear doesn't actually have any magnets in it; the magnets are in the dual VR sensors and can be triggered by any ferrous metal. The event that the factory ECU is reading from the trigger wheel is the passing of the back side of the raised portion; the termination of the peak.

The cam gear can be universal since the trigger wheel is going to be a separate item. The difference in trigger shape is simply the width of the "tooth" between the autos and 6spds. Using this for either of them will simply be a matter of having a trigger wheel modeled and cut.

Auto's would look like this:


6 Speeds would look like this:


In order to get it to fit we would have to mill whatever the trigger wheel's thickness is from the underside of the cam gear so that it doesn't end up shimming the gear out further. After that, it's a matter of shimming the VR sensors; they protrude out quite a bit from the timing belt rear cover.

Cutting a trigger wheel would cost about $25 each in batches of 10.

Rajca

iTrader: (8)

Ok I understand what ur doing now. I'm highly interested in some cam gears

IDon'tKnow

That 2 folks. Who else?
__________________________________________________ __

It might also be a viable route to use the gear rings from the OE pulleys by grinding them up a buit and simply have custom centers machined, buy cap screws, and cut a trigger wheel.

I had considered this before but wrote it off because I didn't think the pulley with the trigger would adapt well. Upon closer inspection I relised that there is enough clearance on the outer slots to clear a 9mm flange socket cap screw. The slot would have to be enlarged slightly (only 10/1000th") to clear the 4mm threading though.

Anyway; here's the concept:

On this pulley the 3 (maybe six if there is room to put two side by side in the slot) cap screws would slot through the OE pulley and into a custom machined center.


On the other side the design would be inverted; the 6 cap screw would seat on a custom machined aluminum center into the OE pulley.


This would bring the price down below $200 for the DIY guys (willing to grind up their own pulleys and then tap threads) and right around there for people who wanted them "turn-key".

richardparker

iTrader: (7)

I want some but,350 is a little high for me right now. I've been losing intrest in my car.
I'm trying to add some intrest or kill my car tomorrow.
I will be going to the 1/8 to make a couple passes on freshly filled bottle,and that will either make or break any decession to move forward with the car.
good time and no damage=moving forward with intrest.
so possibly,how soon are you trying to make this happen ?

IDon'tKnow

Sooner than later. 30-50 days I think is a fair estimate to get the buyers together and have the design done in CAD.

$350 or so with a 7075 gear ring sounds appealing but high, I agree. The decreased cam inertia would be a good thing, but that is quite a bit of money for a pair of SOHC pulleys.

$200 for pulleys using the OE gear ring sounds like it could be more appealing. It will also simplify the design process.

richardparker

iTrader: (7)

I would be interested in some for 200 ready to install.
I have a set of cam gears just sitting.

CH46ESeaKnight

If it were a DOHC I could see spending that much on adjustable cam gears. But in a SOHC engine I just don't think the gains are there. Basically all you will be able to do is move the power band up or down in the RPM range. What ever you add to the top end will take away from the bottom end and vis versa. Not really going to add any HP/TQ. I mean if you had custom cams that you wanted to retard or advance then I'd understand. Whats the point to all this? Am I missing something?

I have to comend you on your efforts though.
Why not put the money into something like custom cams instead?

IDon'tKnow

Some regrinds are in the works actually.

I agree that the adjustable pulleys are far less useful on SOHC engines. They are useful for the point you just made, and also for people who mill their heads a substantial amount and need to correct timing.

It's not set in stone yet, Delta Cam and I are still working things out, but I plan on increasing the lobe center angle on the non-vtec intake lobe as far as possible. It's limited by down-ramp angle and it's intersection with the equivalent point of peak lift with the new base circle. Still should be a few degrees of crank rotation which will allow it to not give up lower rpm power in exchange for the advanced timing on the big lobe.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

For an otherwise stock motor, I can agree.

However for a stroked motor running a stock ecu this would be a godsend. My car is constantly pulling timing above 5k rpms and falling flat (not to mention very rich).

I do agree a nice set of cams would help out alot as well.

Since Im going to run the EMS2, this probably wont be very beneficial to me since I can control timing through that. But I am still curious as to how this plays out.

IDon'tKnow

When people say "pulling timing" at high rpm's it is usually referring to retarding the ignition timing. As RPM's increase the window of time available to ignite and extract force from the air/fuel mixture is decreased. To compensate for that modern EFI and ignition systems will ignite the mixture sooner as rpms rise; well before tdc. Of course igniting the air/fuel too soon can lead to premature flame front propagation: detonation. If it is ignited too late the combustion event happens too late, and the window of opportunity to extract the most "work" from the energy release is passed; i.e. the maximum cylinder pressure is happening after the ideal moment of 10-16* ATDC.

Anyway, that's all well and fine but the timing advance and retard afforded by an adjustable cam gear is "cam timing", not ignition timing. With DOHC motors you are able to control the relationship of the intake and exhaust cam to eachother by using adjustable cam gears. That is not the case for SOHC engines since the relationship between the intake and exhaust valves are preset by the grind on the camshaft.

So, the reasons for using an adjustable cam gear on a SOHC engine are:
1: Timing correction - i.e. if you milled the hell out of your head like I did.
&
2: To modify the relationship between the valve events and the pistons. By advancing and retarding the cam you move your torque curve up and down the rpm range.


I went ahead and did a scale modeling of the cam trigger wheel that will bolt to the back of either aftermarket or oem cam gears; oem to test functionality only of course.


This will attach to the back of gear with flat undercut screws like this:

And I check the clearance between the sensor and OE triggers with some feeler gauge: it's .018".:


And I check to make sure that the VR sensors could be recessed without running into clearance issue. They will be fine, all they will need is a stand-off and a longer bolt.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

I dont believe this is ignition timing it is pulling on my motor. I need to hook up a scanner though to read it.

My friends old J35 build was pulling almost 40* of cam timing up top.

CH46ESeaKnight

How does a J32 pull cam timming? Are the electronically controlled? I don't get it.

Like "IDK" said when people talk about an engine pulling time it is ignition timming. Because of detonation.

StreetKA

iTrader: (8)

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Im talking stroked motors running on a J32 ECU. Not a stock 3.2l.

CH46ESeaKnight

Ok, I get that.

But how does your motor actually pull or adjust cam timming?

I'm only asking so I can understand, because as I sit here and think about it, it is clear as mud to me.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

I dont know enough about these ECUs other then what the scanner tells me.

IDon'tKnow

Spec'ed and modeled one of the centers here. It's pretty much perfect but I will bring the file and my written specifications to a CAD professional to make sure things go smoothly.

Since this center will be sandwiched between heavy duty cap screws and steel, I think the yield, shear, and tensile strength aren't going to be AS important as with the other center which will have the steel gear ring sandwiched between cap screw and ALUMINUM. For the latter I think 7075 should be the only material option. For the former I have no problem doing it in 6061 since it's cheaper and should function just as well.




Fits into this:


Price to cut 10 of these out of 7075 would be ~$775, or ~$475 for 6061.