ok, so this isn't my car it's LORD HELMET's car, but I took a ride in it the other day when we were doing my cams and it seemed really slow, but he has a CAI so it SOUNDED like the VTEC engaged because before the cams in my CL my car was still pretty quiet when it was cold and I went into the VTEC range, so when I took the ride in his car and he floored it, it got louder, but still not as loud as my car in vtec, so I thought it was just how the second gen's are.

I've since gotten my car up and running with the CLS cams in it, and now I can hear that my car sounds exactly like his did when he went WOT except only when it's cold, so when vtec doesn't engage.

so basically it seems like his car isn't engaging the secondary lobes, even when it is warm. What can cause this? Low oil, IMRC malfunction, vtec solenoid problem?

he says he checked his IMRC and it clearly flipped when he revved it from under the hood. He says it alos is intermittent, so sometimes feels powerful, other times dead. Any chance that the IMRC is only working part of the time?

oh yeah, and just to make sure, the IMRC is that thing that just sort of sits above the rear spark plugs with a wire running over to the passenger side of the intake manifold right?

 

Lord Helmet needs to buy a 6spd... That would solve the problem, no ??

 

has he ever checked his oil?

 

yeah he get's it changed at the dealership apparently.

 

So this is the car that had the video posted a while back where everyone said it was slow? He definitely needs to get that checked.

 

yeah, and I've figured it out. sounds exactly like it's not engaging the higher cams, does it sound teh same way when the IMRC malfunctions?

 

Low oil, low oil pressure, VTEC solenoid malfunction, IMRC broken - a lot of this could be the cause. Although I wasn't personally aware that the IMRC was essential for VTEC operation altogether.

 

Here I am!

Just so you's guys know, the IMRC funtions everytime I test it. Does it work all the time? I have no idea. It's hard to climb under the hood while I'm driving and watch it. Also, I get the oil changed regularly as well as check it. Also, even when it is being slow and I go WOT, it always changes tone around 4,800 RPM indicating to me that Vtec is engaging. I guess there is a possibility that all I am hearing is teh CAI but honestly, vtec or not, the car should be quicker to even make it to the vtec point. As ghost_master said, this is intermittent. Some days she's right on key. (Like the night I tried the gate shifting thing.) Then some days she's a total dog. (Like the day ghost_master rode in it.) I don't get it and it's really iritating.

I know that the IMRC has nothing to do with vtec or so I've read.

What can cause low oil pressure?

How can I check the oil pressure?

Everyone's help on all of this is greatly appreciated! Thanks for looking into it, ghost_master!

 

Oh, BTW Greenie, I'm not looking to trade this one yet. Besides, the 6Mt CLS is tied right now with an E36 M3 coupe for my next car.

 

Yeah it does get louder, but honestly it should be a lot louder, at least I think it should. my car was louder than that even when I just had the CAI, but now after I got the CLS cams in it sounds exactly like your car does when I floor it and go to the point where vtec should engage. I'll show you next time we meet up. You'll probably when you hear how loud it is.

 

Is it possible vtec is engaging only part of the time?

 

It's highly unlikely that VTEC is only half-working. 4800RPM is the engagement point, and the engine should pull even more strongly to redline after 4800. A VTEC problem would cause a CEL, which I haven't heard mention of in this thread. Low oil pressure would cause the oil light in the cluster to illuminate to warn you, again, no mention. Perhaps it is altitude? What gas are you using? How many miles?

 

I've got no CEL's or oil light, I'm at 6,500ft, I use prem oct. fuel, and I'm at 61K miles I think. Oh, and as I've mentioned before in previous threads, I believe I have CL-p plugs in my CL-S (by accident) but it never seemed to make much difference after the change.

 

Yes.....very similar to my situation indeed.....

Well just to get a future performance baseline and to see if there was anything wrong with my IMRC, VTEC, etc I took it to the dyno the other day. To say the least I was disspointed, but I may have gotten some insight. My best consistant runs (SAE) were 201whp and 181wtq (but according to a dyno guy, that whp is considerably more than his stock 5.0 mustang although torque is higher). But, I found TWICE that when leaving the care running after a pull (even with break time), the whp was 180 and wtq 160! WTF? Turn the engine off, start back up again and consistant 201whp/181 wtq again.....The thing is too, the engine would be turned of then started right back up after each crappy run. This means it didn't have much to do with cool off time, and the dyno guy agreed. So there may possibly be something going on with ecu. There was an audible/power difference at 3.5k,4k, and 5k so I know BAV/IMRC and VTEC are functioning correctly. According to the dyno, although factory specs have peak hp at 6100, my peak was at 6500, and although peak torque is 3500-5500, my peak was from 4000-5200. I also noticed the air fuel ratio went from like 14.9 around idle to 11.4 around redline. Per the dyno guy and an experienced honda/acura performance specialist, 14.9 is too much air and 11.4 is too much fuel, which also has to do with the ecu as I understand it. I will be checking with the dealer to see if the ecu was switched when the tranny was replaced. Anyways, I picked up Apexi VAFC (vtec/air fuel controller). I am going to get with that guru once it is installed to tune it, he says in this car it will provide 10whp/10tq, possibly a few more. According to the VAFC box, I can also switch the low cam (before VTEC) to high air flow starting around idle, which should give better initial throttle response and pre 3500 pull. Well now it is time to go try and make my grill....speaking of grill, the weather is starting to change, I feel a Colorado meet coming!
I was looking for the THREAD HIJACK smiley, but I am running 28.8 at home and don't have time to wait!

 

Interesting. So you're saying the ecu might have someting to do with this?

 

If you want a V-AFC to fiddle with, and have it installed and try to fix this issue, I have one, it's molded into the sunglass holder if you want it.

 

PM'd...

On another note, I just noticed something else after my short trip to the bank. I was sitting next to a wall and hit the throttle and noticed an initial ping when I hit the gas. WTF? Is this related?

 

possible misfires... could be a big problem. do you always get gas at the same station? possibly try getting gas at a different station?

I got about the same AFR on my car on the dyno when I was stock as nightrider. I have a VAFC I'm going to go tune in the next couple weeks to even out the AFR to 13.5 about, which should be ideal on an NA car.

 

180whp and 160wtq is about appropriate of a TL/CL Premium. That would explain the video run where his car was no faster than my TL-P. I wonder WTF is going on with the ECU?

BTW, to my knowledge they don't change the ECU with the transmission.. just the PCM. Unless that was what you were talking about

 

can you tell me the method you use to determine your IMRC is working open the hood? blip the throttle with your hand and ...?

 

it can clearly be seen "flipping" open or whatever.

and I don't really think have CLP plugs woudl cause that significant of a power decrease. Maybe if hew as stock and running really cold plugs used for FI or somehting...

 

can be seen or heard?

 

I'm pretty sure he said he could see it flipping.

 

Yeah, I actually had my roommate hit the throttle once and then I had my mom hit it for me just for good measure. I literally saw it move on both occasions.

I always get gas at the same station. Recently the station went from a BP to a Conoco though. Maybe that could be the ping, bad gas??

As far as the ECU/tranny goes, to my knowledge, the car has had the "recall" work done but I believe it still has the original tranny.

I drove the car to Denver tonight and it felt strong all night. As an example, I was sitting at a light tonight and this guy in a new Jetta was trying to get me to race him. When the light turned green, he took off. He was clearly WOT. I eased on it not really thinking about him but once he was about 1 1/2 car lenghts ahead, I decided to punch it. I figured this was a good chance to really see how strong the CLS was running. I beat him pretty bad and to put it lightly, he got . It's usually hard to really get on it in Castle Rock due to lower speed limits and the town is crawling with cops so rarely do I get a chance to nail it in town.

 

Those lines made me laugh for some reason.

I'm stumped as far as what problem your car could be having, but I think NightRider's explanation was probably about as close as you'll get to the possible answer to your problem.

 

TypeR - can you tell me the method you use to determine your IMRC is working open the hood? blip the throttle with your hand and ...?

The IMRC (called Bypass Actuator Valve per the car) is of course sitting right above the back three plug coil packs and tucked in by the sway bar. Apparently there is a way to tap into the throttle line and check yourself, but I don't know this method and just had someone else rev while I checked. The BAV is somewhat like a switch for your residential electrical box, and when the RPM reaches 4k it should click over definitively. The switch should be from left to right. You can actually manually switch it over with the car off, doesn't provide any benefit, but makes it easy to confirm what your looking for....

 

The fact that my dyno runs had only 2 variable outputs and they were each clearly defined leads me to think the ecu is messing around. My car has the same sometimes "random" conditions, when it seems to do noticeably better or worse at any given time. I asked the dealer who replaced the tranny if ECU or anything is changed also, he replied "not that he knows of", but every car is different. Way to play the fence bastard, like someone inviting you somewhere and you telling them "well, maybe probably most likely possibly not perhaps". So, should have the VAFC installed/tuned/dyno next weekend, I will update on that. Side note, I finished up my grill with the cheapo "premium" hinged gutter guard (sheets not rolls) from Home Depot, looks great. It took a little more time than I expected, but mostly to shape the damn grill. The product is galvanized so it wont rust, I believe it is an aluminum alloy and matches up with the factory color nearly flawlessly. Sorry no pics from phone I have to talk to Sprint for that on Monday. Bottom line though Chris, if VTEC was NOT engaging you would definitely notice it. The difference in whp at 4k and at 5.5k according to comptech stock dyno is right around 60whp and very high on my dyno as well. That much hp over that little of rpm is either definitely noticable or noticeably absent. During my VAFC tune I will talk with the guy about possible ecu work around, as it seems we are being inhibited in several ways by this EngineCrappinessUnit. I have seen some threads criticizing VAFC, Unichip, etc, but as modders already know or will find out, the more things are modified the more little things matter.

 

you know, I honestly don't htink that just tuning the AFR wuill solve this problem, because like you said, you were making 210/190 adn then it suddenly dropped down to 180/160 for seemingly no apparent reason.

perhaps something is causing the car to run in "limp mode" and that's why turning it off and back on fixed that problem. While you may gain some extra HP from tuning the AFR, I doubt it will fix whatever is causing this intermittent power loss issue.

 

This is actually becoming quite interesting. I wonder how many other people have this problem but don't really realize it.

NightRider, when my car is being slow, I would bet there is a loss of about what you said, 50-60 whp. I mean, it's THAT noticeable. The next time I notice it though, I'm gonna stop, shut it down, and "reboot" if you will. I want to see if that fixes it.

On another note, will a VAFC actually give me any whp once tuned?

 

if you have the plastic engine cover off you can see the plenum valve move ...it's located by the PC pump...if you are just hearing the acctuator operate at the 3800 mark it can still be broken the fact is the motor doesnt fail,but rather teeth on the plastic gear strip anf no longer catch ,but the motor itself still turns and sounds as if its working properly

 

Waaaaiiiiiittttt aaaa minute! typeR, are you saying the IMRC can look like it's functioning but in all reality it may not be on the inside?

 

no, he's saying that if you can see it move it's fine, but if you are just listening, then it might sound like it's working, but it's actually not.

since you said you could actualy see it, your's must be working fine.

I'm wondering if maybe the altitude and/or the gasoline might be causing major misfires which is causing the ECU to pull timing like crazy.

 

Ahh, I see. Well, mine works then.

I'm going to start getting gas somewhere else from now on and see if that changes anything.

 

This guy at the performance shop says so, hopefully I will find out this weekend...he told me that there should be around 5+ gains across the board in wheel torque and hp, and around 10+ for peak gains. These gains will be due to evened out afr (instead of 14.9-11.4, something like 13.8-12.9) and properly tuned afr through-out peak VTEC range. And yes, TypeR
is right you can't verify functionality on sound alone check the mechanicals, but at least I know mine works! What kind of station do you usually get gas from? I only get Conoco, Shell, Philly 66, and BP. I really do think the airflow up here is effecting the ecu in a negative manner, but on the other hand if this happens with all our cars around here then we may just have to deal. Chris, the time has come to dyno, especialy since there isn't anything confirmed that is mechanically wrong with your car, correct? It gives you the chance to not only assess possible problems, but also get a baseline for future mods.

 

I never get gas at a hole in the wall station. It's usually at one particular Conoco. I might actually start trying this Shell station instead for awhile.

I'm tinking about buying All Mine's VAFC and if I do, I might get with you and or ghost_master on getting it tuned and dyno'd.

 

I'm not sure what your problem is but I can tell you this, when I bought my car it had a VAFC and CAI installed and the car was a dog. After much research the problem was with the VAFC settings, the previous owner had VTEC set to kick in at redline (or a tad below), so essentially I was driving the car with no VTEC.
After resetting the VAFC properly it was a world of a difference ! I mean there must be a 75 HP difference above 4800 RPM.
All I'm saying is if the VTEC wasn't kicking in, you would'nt have a doubt. Without VTEC the engine just does not want to rev to redline, feels like a big truck.
Also I had noticed how much louder the CAI suddenly became when VTEC engaged.

 

Ok, so the VAFC is now in and functional. I did not get a chance to tune/dyno yet, should be on Wednesday or Thursday this week. I have not messed with the a/f ratios really (once), it is a little complicated so I am waiting for Toby (the tuner). I have experimented with VTEC engagment point, along with low cam/hi cam and narrow and wide throttles. I did not mark my steps out accordingly for future reference, but with no dyno what's the use? That's what the tuner will handle. BTW, the shop is called TC Performance at I-76 and Sheridan Blvd for you CO'ers. Toby has been featured in Honda Tuner, and several local spots, and he is a honda/acura master super tech (lol I'm off on the title, but he knows his stuff).

Back to VAFC, I first setup to basically have narrow throttle for low cam and wide throttle for high cam in both. Like this:
Low - Narrow then Wide
High - Narrow then Wide
I did modulate a/f ratio towards more fuel for low and more air for high according to my initial dyno. This produced a near turbo spool effect. From a stop punch the gas and it shot up to 2500rpm instantaneously, hesitated (not long), then shot forward like a damn rocket! Actually very smooth from a stop if done right and surprised more than one V8 doing so. Regarding performance, I wouldn't expect improvment from a dig because of the hesitation, but it pulled through gears seemingly quicker than w/o VAFC. On the highway going around 50+ in 4th gear, get the rpms past 2500 and the car pulled effortlessly, unnaturally. People looked at me as I passed by like I was speeding (I was, lol), but I was simply cruising around 3k. I am going to try and replicate this tune again.

The second setup I had, I believe the cam points were too low. VAFC was setup for narrow then wide on low cam, and narrow then wide on high cam (same as above). A/F ratio was not corrected this time. These minor changes (another analogy!) made the engine perform more like an inline or V8. There was a loud (NICE though) rumble starting at 3kand more useable midrange power from 3-5krpm. To put the noise in perspective, it was loud enough from 3k on (still had factory VTEC 48k) that it was almost unnoticable when VTEC kicked in. The flaws of this setup were most evident on the highway, midrange pull was improved, but the high end horsepower was just not there like before. This is a nice setup to have just cruising around the city at low speeds enjoying the ride. 0-60 seemed slightly slower with this setup than stock, and I would expect the gap to widen in the 1/4. Reason being, after 6(1)k rpm stock, our hp/tq go downhill. Mine on the other hand, jumped off a cliff! Therefore, to sustain forward motion I had to upshift right at 6k, so I wasn't in VTEC on upshifts after 1st gear. Yes, I could have changed the VTEC engagement point to resolve this issue, but I like my high horepower. A note to mention, in this setup the car was also not as willing to rev and took longer to climb.

I changed back tonight to stock settings, except the VTEC engagement is set at 46k instead of 48krpm. This feels better because it doesn't seem to take away any from performance, yet if needed, VTEC now engages even with the 4th gear upshift. This is all speculation though, as the truely ideal setup should be revealed later this week...I will report back, thanks for reading.

 

These 5 minutes edits are getting annoying as hell!

EDIT: I just saw the Jay and Silent Bob avitar, how was that movie so stupid yet so funny? Guess it depends on your state of mind...

 

That movies is awesome! I laugh my ass off everytime I see it.


Good write up on he VAFC. I'm still not sure if I really want to pick it up from Ryan (All Mine). I just don't now if it's worth it yet. I haven't had any problems with the car lately. It seems to be fine now. I got the headers in last week and it's running tip top right now. It's weird.


Oh! DId I see you on driving Havana on Saturday afternoon in the Legend? I saw a car exactly like the one in your sig when I was driving a friends big ass Budget moving truck.

 

careful with messing with the VAFC without an AFR meter. you don't want to run it super lean.

If you had the balls to mess with it by yourself, why not just take it to a dyno and tunne it yourself. It's simple. Run the car on the dyno, look at the AFR, add or remove fuel as necesarry to try to smooth it out to low 13 AFR, run the car again, repeat.