Zootking

You guys are probably thinking there is one.....sorry.....just wondering why people arent considering custom turbos, yet they are considering the supercharger. I had a buddy of mine tell me it would be about 2k for the parts and 2k for labor and tuning stuff, and my hp gains would be double that of the charger. Just wondering if anyone else has thought about this idea also?

DISRUPTV

turbo is the way 2 go for more HP

but rmbr maintenance will be more often and more complex and also its hard finding an excellent turbo fabricating shop( trust me u don't want just a "decent" shop to do something like this)

Zapata

more possible now than ever since Doug is selling those lower compression pistons Now all you need to do is find somebody that will make the turbo and then workout all the fuel maps

DISRUPTV

zapata when did those go on sale, how much and whats the comp ratio?

if thats true I'd say go 4 it, just now u have 2 find the proper turbo i.e. te/t4 t205 etc

Zapata

Here's the link that talks about it:

http://www.acura-cl.com/forums/showt...s&pagenumber=3


I would call autocarparts and ask them cuase i can't find them on the website.

zeroday

I wouldn't think there's much point to having much more power than the CT supercharger allows in the CL...It's a heavy front wheel drive car..you'll just be spinning your wheels....not to mention the torque steer with a 350+ HP front driver. Has TypeR mentioned experiencing this problem?

Zapata

But it'll be worse with the S/C. Atleast with the turbo you get your power up top I would rather go with a turbo setup on this car than a S/C.

zeroday

hmm that's a good point. I would guess turbo lag would probably help reduce wheel spin somewhat when launching the 5sp auto and then pour the power on more when you get hooked up??

The only gripe I have with turbos (and this may very likely be due to the fact that my only experience with one was in my 98 Eclipse GST) was the turbo lag on running starts (manual tranny). I've lost more than a few road battles because by the time I had spooled up my turbo, they were gone. Come to think of it I was usually in the bottom of second gear when this happened...the mistu didn't like downshifts to 1st gear from 2cnd at all...gears would grind...car would convulse..so I was often left waiting the bottom of second gear for the turbo to spool while I was being dusted. Anyway, it left a bad taste in mouth. Ya think this a turbo characteristic or was it just my POS mitsu (...or was it maybe my driving )?

Zootking

i just thought this was a logical alternative, and im glad to see others have pondered the same question. Plus, it would original

Zapata

nah lag is an enemy of all turbos. Some have less than others. Plus you could add a 50 shot of NO2 to eliminate turbo lag.

The setup of the turbo will definitely make a difference. CLS has some nice power in the stock setup so lag wouldn't be too much of an issue. Nothing a nice ball-bearing turbo wouldn't cure

Some supraTT go from two turbos to one massive turbo. Old rx7s had two smaller turbos and one would spool for low end and other for high end You can also get turbo timers etc., to help.

allmotor_2000

Turbo Timers only help 'cool' the turbo by running the motor for a defined period of time once the ignition is turned off. They do nothing along the lines of controlling boost or anything of that sort!

The volume of air, boost (measured by psi - pounds per square inch) and the rate-of-increase of pressure depends on the size and # of fins of the turbine wheel and compressor wheel. 'Hybrid' turbos are those that have different A/R values for the turbine wheel and compressor wheel. You can get a turbo to spool to provide 10psi even at 2K rpms, if you want. This particular setup will probably never boost 20+ psi under most conditions, but do you want that.

It's how you setup your system which includes how the exhaust manifold is fabricated, the selection of the turbo, wastegate, plumbing etc. that defines how the engine is going to produce power.

moomaster_99

Have fun a custom turbo is not as easy as it sounds...remember this isn't a 4 banger....the turbo manifold would probably cost you closer to 3K. The turbine...anywhere from 700 to 1k , then all the extra fuel....not to mention the need to retard the timing somewhere....if someone had a replacement ECU for the car...it would be more feasible...until then..these are all pipe dreams.

SiGGy

10.5:1

Need I say more?

mattg

aem has a replacement ecu for our car.

mattg

http://www.aempower.com/ems.htm

tuRb0mikEy

Having almost firsthand knowledge on the second Accord V6 to ever have a HKS Turbo system here are my responses

Zootking - tell your friend to get his head out of his ass. Parts and labor will run upwards of $7,000 and no I didn't get that number from the Fast and Furious. A custom turbo system is just that -CUSTOM - there is no bolt on manifold, no IC that you know will fit, clearance problems in the engine bay, and known problems the auto tranny will have in handling the power. Having a 6-speed doesnt make it any easier.

MattG - there is no current base program for the J32 series for the AEM EMS chip. This means you will have to purchase a blank AEM and tune EVERYTHING yourself. Yes from ignition to redline you will have to map the fuel and air ratios yourself, as well as EVERYTHING the stock ECU controls (speedometer, rev limit etc etc) Besides that you will need a wide band oxygen sensor to work with the EMS, and since you also have to program in boost settings, think of 1) how many people actually know enough about the J32 to do this and 2) how LONG it will take.

zeroday - learn how to race..ever heard of brake-boosting? I beat a BPU Supra in a stock Supra TT because the fool had no clue of how to launch from a roll or a stop

zeroday

I guess he showed me huh. What a total badass. He must be like one of those racers on the fast and the furious.

tuRb0mikEy

but the truth here is, you probably DON'T know how to brake-boost and after you read my shit you sat there wondering if it could have you helped you and your poor GST that somehow got a bad rep although it was because of your poor driving.


and that, is called OWNAGE

Zapata

take it easy bro everbody is here to learn..............

zeroday

LOL no I sat here wondering if you were dropped on your head as a baby.

Wires

The cheapest alternative would be to put lower compression pistons into the engine, and then do the Comptech S/C install. Crank up the boost, and hold onto you shorts. Ok, cheap if you sell your first born on ebay, but.....

Speaking of issues with low end torque and our cars, is there anything that can be done about wheel hop? For shits and giggles I rev'ed her up, dumped the clutch, and then I spent 1/2 hour patting the dash saying "sorry... sorry... sorry... I'll never do that again!"

I remember when the '99 Mustang Cobra came out, people were bitching about the nasty wheel hop with the new independant rear suspension that they designed in. Apparently, people were pissed they spent an extra $6k for a car that:
a) Was dyno'ed at almost the same HP as a GT
b) Had such nasty wheel hop.

They were getting recalled to fix the hop, and new intakes to get the HP near the claimed 320 ponies....

Just curious..... :P

tuRb0mikEy

YOU take it easy...who are they supposed to learn from...YOU?? hahaha

zeroday keep telling yourself that and maybe you will feel better, i'll just hop in the accord, tL or Supra and pick on more unprepared fools.

Zootking

sounds like TurboMikey still lives with his parents....anyways, the wheel hop on our cars does suck, and the only way to prevent that is to not rev so high on the start. Try feathering the clutch out and you'll get much better results. As far as being able to dump the clutch at high rpm's, my suggestion would be to get a new front suspension, or just change the whole car to RWD

Wires

Yeh, I've been reving to about 2500RPM. and letting the clutch out quick, and I can get a launch with mild wheelspin.

The problem is with independant rear suspension, you can get the same problem with a RWD.

Has anyone with shock/spring upgrades notice less hop? I did some searching on the '99 Cobra IFS wheel hop issue, and springs are supposed to cure a bunch of it. More was taken car of relocating the control arms. Of course, we don't have that luxury, since it's the front end, not the back end.

Zapata

scalbert

I do love how the term 'lag' is used without any real clue as to what it is. In truth there is no such thing as lag, but it is used generally to indicate the delay it takes to get to maximum boost. The delay is made up of two factors, throttle response and boost threshold.

Throttle Response is not isolated to turbo vehicles; all cars have some type of throttle response. In general, a turbo vehicle is no different here than an NA vehicle.

The other is Boost Threshold, this is the lowest RPM where this is enough exhaust flow through the turbine to spin the compressor fast enough to make positive manifold pressure. The RPM is based on engine to turbo sizing. A smaller turbo will normally have a lower threshold than a larger turbo on the same engine.

OF IMPORTANT NOTE... This is where the lag statement is made false. When you floor a turbo car when below its boost threshold that car is then operating identically to a NA vehicle. Once at and above that threshold there will be positive manifold pressure increasing torque over that of a NA engine. So regardless, the turbo vehicle always pulls about the same if not better than a similar NA vehicle so there is no real lag, just a delay before max boost and peak torque. But before that it is still pulling.

TURBOs MAKE TORQUE, where that torque comes in at has to do with sizing. As mentioned smaller turbos have a lower threshold which might seem attractive at first. But they generally run out of steam, can't support higher flow rates, at the higher revs.

tuRb0mikEy - I believe zeroday mentioned he had a manual. You can't brake-boost a manual. That is only relevant on automatics which are great for turbo drag racing. I could launch my Typhoon at 12 PSI and with AWD it would hit hard.

zeroday - Did you go to a 16G?? That T25 in the 98 GS-T did have a low boost threshold which if you were in anything above 3k revs you could immediately be in boost.

Zapata

scalbert,
is delay the same as lag?

Zootking

Wires--ive got the comptech springs, sitting on stock rims and tires, youve got new tires and are still spinning, that doesnt make me too happy cause im getting new tires soon, and it won't make a difference. Anyways, im gonna go with Yokohama Avid V4's, FASTVTECCL has them on his and gets good traction....hopefully my wheelspinning days will be over.

zeroday

correct...I also stated that I was already moving, and at the bottom of second gear. Correct me if I a wrong, but even if I had an automatic, torque breaking/break boosting is only helpful from a dead stop.

It was the stock t25 turbo. I realize it was a small turbo that should have spooled up relatively quickly, but i'm thinking it just wasn't soon enough to compensate for the weak bottom end on that engine. The low end torque on that motor was very very weak.. I forget exactly where the boost threshold was but 3k like you said sounds about right. Here's the scenario that always got me:

Car pulls up next to me at a stop, I look over to see if hes interested in racing..driver just looks straight so I figure we're not racing. I pull away normally when the light goes green. I shift to second. The guy in the other car suddenly decides to open his car up on me. I just floor it (because remember I couldn't downshift into 1st from second past a certain point) and there's barely any torque for about 1.5-2 seconds while the other guy just blasts by me. From a dead stop though, that car was an animal. Just rev it up real good, pop the clutch and you're gone.

scalbert

I guess another way to put it would be that you are waiting to be a peak boost and therefor peak torque and accelerating rate.

Compare this to how people here talk about not being "in VTEC" and waiting as the revs climbed to get there. This could be considered the same as lag, waiting for maximum acceleration rate, so even though we have no turbo we do have lag!?!?!

It is the sudden increase in torque when the boost threshold is crossed which gives a sensation of previously not having power or having been in lag. Whereas in our cars this is more of a slow progression in increased acceleration.

scalbert

You are correct, brake torqueing is on good at a stop in an automatic.

I beleive the threshold was at or just below 3k revs. My wife had owned a '96 GS-T and from what I recall, the was the range it started making positive pressure.

But I do know what you mean, trying to pull when low in the revs. But that is what the clutch and stick is for...:P :P

tuRb0mikEy

Umm no...since a manual transmission doesnt close the throttle when the brakes are applied you can downshift to a low gear to anticipate a race launch, hold the brake in a lil and apply gas, there's a boost gauge in the Supra and I watch that and when it swings up towards max, then I gun it. Try it. I'm not talking about a drag launch either, this is from a roll. That BPU Supra got caught so badly I slowed down a lil to try and get him to catch up.

scalbert

Huh?!?!?

An automatic doesn't close the throttle when the brakes are applied either.

It has nothing to do with throttle opening as most ECU's will open the wastegate control solenoid when no load is detected. It is the very load that increases the boost stacking in the engine. Without load the exhaust flow is not significant enough to generate boost in most applications. Add to that the ECU opening the wastegate and there is no boost.

Of the several turbo vehicles I have owned I would never look at the stock boost gauge, an aftermarket unit was the only valid reference.

So you are saying that you would hold the brake and apply the gas while driving?? Wouldn't you be further down the road and moving faster it you bypassed this method and just downshifted and floored it??

zeroday

But I couldn't downshift!! It seemed like once you were going a certain speed, the eclipse wouldn't let you downshift back into 1st. If I could get it into the gate, it would grind like a mother. As for depressing the clutch while in 2cnd and revving the engine up to 3k+ then popping it, I remember that 'lugging' the engine big time...the clutch would also slip real bad while doing this and it just generally didn't seem to do much good.

Zapata

Ah ok so I understand the concept just didn't phrase it correctly Many pardons sir

DISRUPTV

scalbert, say theres two NA engines of the same type (i.e. cl-s engine) and did not come w/ a supercharger or turbo from the factory, and one of them gets a supercharger and the other gets a turbo. Say there are both driven the same way and maintained properly, which engine would last the longest? whih would have the least issues?

I'm thinking the turbo, no?

Wires

I find they don't spin that bad, just nasty hop. I never dumped the clutch in 1st with the stock tires, so I don't know what happened then, but I do know I have hardly any wheelspin between 1st and 2nd (dumping the clutch on the shifts). And with the stock tires, I used to get wheelspin from 2nd to 3rd as well (that little bit of spin is what I get between 1st and 2nd now).

I am really happy with the tires though. They handle better, better traction.

Wires

The supercharger is just a turbo that's belt driven (assuming you have a centrifugal supercharger). The roots is a little different (the type Comptech uses).

The problem with turbos is they hold more heat on the exhaust side of the engine (you usually have beefier manifolds/headers to handle the extra heat).

It's probably pretty much last the same, but the supercharger is less maintainence. You don't have to worry about oil coking when shutting down hot.

But then, semi's run turbo's for 100,000's of miles.... It's mainly a maintenance thing.

I was reading that turbos could be less and less in gas powered vehicles. The exhaust impeller slows down the heating of the catalatic convertor, which leads to more emissions during startup. It makes sense, and if you look around, there is less and less vehicles being built with turbos, and more with superchargers.
:P

Wires

I thought lag was the time it takes for the turbo to start spinning from a dead stop. A larger turbo has more rotational mass, so it takes more exhaust pressure to get the whole unit turning (more lag). A small turbo has less mass so spins easier (less lag).

New turbos are made out of exotic materials which lowers the rotational mass, which makes this issue pretty much a thing of the past.

I was reading an article in SCC about this.....

scalbert

I agree with Wires, it is a toss up. The turbo may hold heat a bit more but it has much less parasitic drag on the engine. But there is no definite answer and would all depend on maintenence.