The truth about synth oils (very very long)
02-16-2001, 04:21 PM
#1
Coming to a city near you
Thread Starter
The truth about synth oils (very very long)
Stolen from my friends at the Hybrid Board.
A little background (tho he sorta goes into it in the first part)...phil
owns a roadster and is an engineer at NASA. His field of specialty is
lubricants. I don't think you can get much more knowledgable on the subject
than that. with that in mind... pay heed to what he has to say about synth
oils:
Demon ______________________________________________
Part 1: Today's topic seams to be motor oil related. I am a NASA Engineer at
Marshal Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Alabama. My field of work is
Tribology which is the study of friction, wear, and lubrication. In our
spare time, our group collects and tests different motor oils using the
Shell Four Ball tester. This tester tests the extreme pressure properties of
oils. These areas in a motor are cam to lifter contacts, valve stem to
guild, and piston skirts. Over the years we have found synthetic bases oils
to out perform mineral based oils by a large margin. We test the oils new,
after 1000 miles, 2000 miles, and up to 10,000 miles. In a nut shell, we
found that synthetic oils have better wear properties after being run 10,000
miles then mineral grade oils new. Which synthetic do we use? First any you
will benefit from any synthetic, but we use Mobil 1. Mobil by far puts more
research dollars in motor oils then any other company. They are also
aggressive in racing. Other notes on motor oils.
Do not run synthetics in a new rebuild. A new engine needs the added
friction allowed by mineral oils to set the rings properly. Chevy found this
out on the corvette. These cars came from the factory with Mobil 1 and
owners brought them back because of smoking and oil consumption (rings did
not seat). Run a good single weight oil for the first 2000 miles. We found
Havaline 30 to be a good mineral oil - in fact we use it for our standard.
The reason Mobil 1 can safely be run for 10,000 miles is because the
additive package is well engineered to isolate grim and hold it in
suspension. This also is why Mobil 1 is expensive. You know - you get what
you pay for.
I know there are a lot of questions on motor oils. You can e-mail me for
more information or search the web for more details on synthetics. Your
Roadster deserves the best - run synthetic oils.
Phil 1966 1600 SPL311-002500 Keep it between the lines and in a four wheel
drift
I have received a lot of comments on oils, so I will try and cover some the
concerns/comments.
I listed multi grade oil break down at 1000 to 2000 miles. This is for the
junk oils found at circle K for a dollar. A good name brand oil will last
3000 miles without too much break down. This is for mineral grade oils -
synthetic oils meet government viscosity tests for ratings without adding
thickeners like polymer chains.
Guys here at work run synthetics in motors that have 140,000 to 170,000
miles on them without any more oil consumption them normal. I believe that
you will get a slight increase in consumption in older motors because the
synthetic are very slippery and can get by old rings easier. In these cases
going to a 15w-50 may help, but this is not a reason not to use synthetics.
Older motors need the extra protection. At running temperature a synthetic
will maintain its viscosity, where a mineral oil viscosity is DRASTICALLY
REDUCED.
A test on how well synthetics work at different temperature can be done in
your home. Get a quart of your favorite mineral oil and a quart of a
synthetic. Put a cup a each oil in a glass or paper cup and stick in the
freezer over night. In the morning try and pour the oils out. Next test: DO
THIS OUTSIDE. On an old camp stove put a ? of the synthetic oil in an old
frying pan and put it on the stove on the highest heat setting. Cook for 30
minutes. Now cook your oil for 30 minutes. At this point you will see why
you cooked the synthetic first. As the oil cooks pour some out to see the
changes in viscosity between the oils.
Part 3 on oil additive coming soon. I need to back to NASA work.
Phil 66 1600 Hey all -
The question of change intervals and synthetic oil has come up. As a side at
work we run oil tests using the Shell Four Ball test rig. This tester was
developed by Shell oil to test the extreme wear properties of motor oils -
cams, piston skirts etc. It consists of three, = inch balls held in a
triangular pattern in a cup with oil heated to 165 degrees. A forth ball is
lowered to the center of the three balls and loaded to 40 KG. The ball is
then rotated 600 RPM for one hour. After the test the wear scar is measured
on the three stationary balls. The bigger the scar the lower the extreme
wear property of the oil is. We use Havoline 30 wt for a base line. We use
this oil because engineers from the past liked this oil, so we have a large
data base.
Looking at data shows new Havoline 30 wt has a wear scar of .0165 inches.
New Mobil 1 has a .0145 inch scar. May not seem like a lot of difference,
but it is. Havoline 30 at 3000 miles has a wear scar of .020 inches and
Mobil 1 at 4000 miles has a .0164 scar. Remember - the bigger the badder.
3000 miles is as long as anyone was willing to run Havoline 30 wt, so its
data stops here. Mobil 1 at 6000 miles is .0167, at 8000 miles is .0188, and
at 10,000 miles is .0194. So, at 10,000 miles Mobil 1 has better lubrication
properties in the critical areas in your motor then a good 30 wt. All
mineral oils follow Havoline pretty close - major brands. Some off brands
have a .020 wear scar new. Multi-grades generally have a larger wear scar as
well. This data was from a 5.0 Ford Mustang. Every motor will be slightly
different, but not much.
So, synthetic can handle long run intervals. But, that is part of the story.
You have contaminates to deal with. This is where the additive package comes
in play. This is the expensive part of oils and the reason synthetics are
high priced. Because of the long run intervals of synthetic, they must have
a vastly superior additive package - and they do. Proof of this is to take
3000 mile dino oil and look at it in a glass jar - then do the same for
Mobil 1. The Mobil 1 will look new compared to the dino oil. I run Mobil 1
in my new cars to the longest manufactures oil change interval - usually
7000 miles. This will keep the warranty happy. In my Roadster I change it
once a year regardless of mileage. It run my Roadster about 5000 miles a
year. Most people at work run synthetics and do the same. We have a bunch of
cars in the lot that have over 200,000 miles on them and going strong. I (my
wife) never keeps one that long.
I run 10w-30 Mobil 1 in my new Roadster motors (after break-in). Older
motors get 15w-50 because the tolerances are larger. Because synthetics
don't thin down like mineral oils do at temperature, I would be careful
running 15w-50 in a motor with a high volume oil pump. By doing so you may
run into cavitation problems - oil gage jumping wildly. Drag racers
experience this often at high RPM. Drop a wt and it will clear up.
I checked the auto parts stores last night and could not find a zero wt
Mobil 1. It was about 2 years ago they were talking introducing this oil, so
apparently they have in some markets. I stand corrected.
Testing another "magic" oil additive today. It looks and smells like linseed
oil! This should be fun. Additives are another subject all together. Another
day, but never tested a good one - none- zip - zero - don't waste your
money.
Sorry for being soo long. I like synthetics (obviously). If you have been to
the conferences, seen all the tests and data, and read the lubrication
journals you would run nothing other then synthetics.
Phil SEROC
[This message has been edited by Achance (edited 02-16-2001).]
A little background (tho he sorta goes into it in the first part)...phil
owns a roadster and is an engineer at NASA. His field of specialty is
lubricants. I don't think you can get much more knowledgable on the subject
than that. with that in mind... pay heed to what he has to say about synth
oils:
Demon ______________________________________________
Part 1: Today's topic seams to be motor oil related. I am a NASA Engineer at
Marshal Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Alabama. My field of work is
Tribology which is the study of friction, wear, and lubrication. In our
spare time, our group collects and tests different motor oils using the
Shell Four Ball tester. This tester tests the extreme pressure properties of
oils. These areas in a motor are cam to lifter contacts, valve stem to
guild, and piston skirts. Over the years we have found synthetic bases oils
to out perform mineral based oils by a large margin. We test the oils new,
after 1000 miles, 2000 miles, and up to 10,000 miles. In a nut shell, we
found that synthetic oils have better wear properties after being run 10,000
miles then mineral grade oils new. Which synthetic do we use? First any you
will benefit from any synthetic, but we use Mobil 1. Mobil by far puts more
research dollars in motor oils then any other company. They are also
aggressive in racing. Other notes on motor oils.
Do not run synthetics in a new rebuild. A new engine needs the added
friction allowed by mineral oils to set the rings properly. Chevy found this
out on the corvette. These cars came from the factory with Mobil 1 and
owners brought them back because of smoking and oil consumption (rings did
not seat). Run a good single weight oil for the first 2000 miles. We found
Havaline 30 to be a good mineral oil - in fact we use it for our standard.
The reason Mobil 1 can safely be run for 10,000 miles is because the
additive package is well engineered to isolate grim and hold it in
suspension. This also is why Mobil 1 is expensive. You know - you get what
you pay for.
I know there are a lot of questions on motor oils. You can e-mail me for
more information or search the web for more details on synthetics. Your
Roadster deserves the best - run synthetic oils.
Phil 1966 1600 SPL311-002500 Keep it between the lines and in a four wheel
drift
I have received a lot of comments on oils, so I will try and cover some the
concerns/comments.
I listed multi grade oil break down at 1000 to 2000 miles. This is for the
junk oils found at circle K for a dollar. A good name brand oil will last
3000 miles without too much break down. This is for mineral grade oils -
synthetic oils meet government viscosity tests for ratings without adding
thickeners like polymer chains.
Guys here at work run synthetics in motors that have 140,000 to 170,000
miles on them without any more oil consumption them normal. I believe that
you will get a slight increase in consumption in older motors because the
synthetic are very slippery and can get by old rings easier. In these cases
going to a 15w-50 may help, but this is not a reason not to use synthetics.
Older motors need the extra protection. At running temperature a synthetic
will maintain its viscosity, where a mineral oil viscosity is DRASTICALLY
REDUCED.
A test on how well synthetics work at different temperature can be done in
your home. Get a quart of your favorite mineral oil and a quart of a
synthetic. Put a cup a each oil in a glass or paper cup and stick in the
freezer over night. In the morning try and pour the oils out. Next test: DO
THIS OUTSIDE. On an old camp stove put a ? of the synthetic oil in an old
frying pan and put it on the stove on the highest heat setting. Cook for 30
minutes. Now cook your oil for 30 minutes. At this point you will see why
you cooked the synthetic first. As the oil cooks pour some out to see the
changes in viscosity between the oils.
Part 3 on oil additive coming soon. I need to back to NASA work.
Phil 66 1600 Hey all -
The question of change intervals and synthetic oil has come up. As a side at
work we run oil tests using the Shell Four Ball test rig. This tester was
developed by Shell oil to test the extreme wear properties of motor oils -
cams, piston skirts etc. It consists of three, = inch balls held in a
triangular pattern in a cup with oil heated to 165 degrees. A forth ball is
lowered to the center of the three balls and loaded to 40 KG. The ball is
then rotated 600 RPM for one hour. After the test the wear scar is measured
on the three stationary balls. The bigger the scar the lower the extreme
wear property of the oil is. We use Havoline 30 wt for a base line. We use
this oil because engineers from the past liked this oil, so we have a large
data base.
Looking at data shows new Havoline 30 wt has a wear scar of .0165 inches.
New Mobil 1 has a .0145 inch scar. May not seem like a lot of difference,
but it is. Havoline 30 at 3000 miles has a wear scar of .020 inches and
Mobil 1 at 4000 miles has a .0164 scar. Remember - the bigger the badder.
3000 miles is as long as anyone was willing to run Havoline 30 wt, so its
data stops here. Mobil 1 at 6000 miles is .0167, at 8000 miles is .0188, and
at 10,000 miles is .0194. So, at 10,000 miles Mobil 1 has better lubrication
properties in the critical areas in your motor then a good 30 wt. All
mineral oils follow Havoline pretty close - major brands. Some off brands
have a .020 wear scar new. Multi-grades generally have a larger wear scar as
well. This data was from a 5.0 Ford Mustang. Every motor will be slightly
different, but not much.
So, synthetic can handle long run intervals. But, that is part of the story.
You have contaminates to deal with. This is where the additive package comes
in play. This is the expensive part of oils and the reason synthetics are
high priced. Because of the long run intervals of synthetic, they must have
a vastly superior additive package - and they do. Proof of this is to take
3000 mile dino oil and look at it in a glass jar - then do the same for
Mobil 1. The Mobil 1 will look new compared to the dino oil. I run Mobil 1
in my new cars to the longest manufactures oil change interval - usually
7000 miles. This will keep the warranty happy. In my Roadster I change it
once a year regardless of mileage. It run my Roadster about 5000 miles a
year. Most people at work run synthetics and do the same. We have a bunch of
cars in the lot that have over 200,000 miles on them and going strong. I (my
wife) never keeps one that long.
I run 10w-30 Mobil 1 in my new Roadster motors (after break-in). Older
motors get 15w-50 because the tolerances are larger. Because synthetics
don't thin down like mineral oils do at temperature, I would be careful
running 15w-50 in a motor with a high volume oil pump. By doing so you may
run into cavitation problems - oil gage jumping wildly. Drag racers
experience this often at high RPM. Drop a wt and it will clear up.
I checked the auto parts stores last night and could not find a zero wt
Mobil 1. It was about 2 years ago they were talking introducing this oil, so
apparently they have in some markets. I stand corrected.
Testing another "magic" oil additive today. It looks and smells like linseed
oil! This should be fun. Additives are another subject all together. Another
day, but never tested a good one - none- zip - zero - don't waste your
money.
Sorry for being soo long. I like synthetics (obviously). If you have been to
the conferences, seen all the tests and data, and read the lubrication
journals you would run nothing other then synthetics.
Phil SEROC
[This message has been edited by Achance (edited 02-16-2001).]
02-16-2001, 08:29 PM
#2
Suzuka Master
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Northern VA
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Awesome post this should go in to the FAQ section. best article I've read so far about Mobil 1. thankx
------------------
CL-S
White/Ebony/Navi/Spoiler/Visor/Full Bra/Mud Guards/Cargo Net/Acura Car Cover/Tint 20%,35%,5% on Sun Roof, Rockford 250a2 Amp w/JL10w6 / K&N Drop in Filter. Comptech Springs. Polarg m-6.
Comptech Headers, Comptech Sways, Eurolite Xenon Crystal high beams.
AEM CAI once they decide to make the dame thing.
235/40/17's or 225/45/17's once I found out which one works for me.
gtech 0-60 6.03 w/ 438 pound load. preheader.
------------------
CL-S
White/Ebony/Navi/Spoiler/Visor/Full Bra/Mud Guards/Cargo Net/Acura Car Cover/Tint 20%,35%,5% on Sun Roof, Rockford 250a2 Amp w/JL10w6 / K&N Drop in Filter. Comptech Springs. Polarg m-6.
Comptech Headers, Comptech Sways, Eurolite Xenon Crystal high beams.
AEM CAI once they decide to make the dame thing.
235/40/17's or 225/45/17's once I found out which one works for me.
gtech 0-60 6.03 w/ 438 pound load. preheader.
02-17-2001, 02:04 AM
#3
6th Gear
Join Date: Jan 2001
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Good info!
-Jim
------------------
98 Black Z28 Auto, naturally aspirated, internally stock engine
COMPLETE MODS LIST: http://www.shadowscove.com/kmaster/z28mods.html
Best 1/4 12.54 @ 110.06 MPH, 1.817 60' w/ BFG Drag Radials
-Jim
------------------
98 Black Z28 Auto, naturally aspirated, internally stock engine
COMPLETE MODS LIST: http://www.shadowscove.com/kmaster/z28mods.html
Best 1/4 12.54 @ 110.06 MPH, 1.817 60' w/ BFG Drag Radials
02-17-2001, 11:29 AM
#4
Senior Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2001
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I believe fully in Mobil1, even more so after that post. At the US Grand Prix we sat in the Mobil1 suite for the race. An engineer I was talking to showed me some data from tests run by BMW on a 5 series engine using "dino oil" and their product, changing the lubricant at 7500 miles, running the engine over various loads on a test bed, and recording consumption, valve seating, etc. The test was designed to mock an engine used for 150k. The pix of the engines after the test said it all--the Mobil1 engine looked practically new, especially compared to the mineral-based version. That's all it took for me to become a believer. One thing I'll never forget--here we are at Indy watching the 1st GP in the US in years and the Mobil1 people are inside watching tv b/c Mayfield was in the hunt for the nascar title at the time! A friggin' nascar race! Oh well, marketing over substance I guess.
------------------
'01 Satin Silver CL-S, tint, Momo Cobra Carbon, Mobil1, V1
Future mods: Comptech springs, sways & headers
18" wheels (Heidfelds or Volks) with S-02's
aerokit?
------------------
'01 Satin Silver CL-S, tint, Momo Cobra Carbon, Mobil1, V1
Future mods: Comptech springs, sways & headers
18" wheels (Heidfelds or Volks) with S-02's
aerokit?
02-17-2001, 06:12 PM
#5
Cajun Gumbo Man
Yeah, I was FLAMMED by all you guys because I quoted " Mobil 1 " was the best oil, but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOo everyone said AMSOIL fool ! what the hell are you saying ???? I was right:
MOBIL 1 IS THE BEST !
No flame please !
------------------
2001 CL Type S Black/Ebony w/NAVI, PIAA bulbs, Tinted windows, JL Sub-woofer/Fosgate 250 watt amp, otherwise pure stock
1998 Accord Coupe EX-V6
Black Currant Pearl, PIAA bulbs, tinted windows, Fosgate 500 watt amp, Eclipes 6X9's,JL Sub-woofer, otherwise PURE stock !
MOBIL 1 IS THE BEST !
No flame please !
------------------
2001 CL Type S Black/Ebony w/NAVI, PIAA bulbs, Tinted windows, JL Sub-woofer/Fosgate 250 watt amp, otherwise pure stock
1998 Accord Coupe EX-V6
Black Currant Pearl, PIAA bulbs, tinted windows, Fosgate 500 watt amp, Eclipes 6X9's,JL Sub-woofer, otherwise PURE stock !
02-17-2001, 06:39 PM
#6
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Fabvsix:
Yeah, I was FLAMMED by all you guys because I quoted " Mobil 1 " was the best oil, but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOo everyone said AMSOIL fool ! what the hell are you saying ???? I was right:
MOBIL 1 IS THE BEST !
No flame please !
</font>
Yeah, I was FLAMMED by all you guys because I quoted " Mobil 1 " was the best oil, but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOo everyone said AMSOIL fool ! what the hell are you saying ???? I was right:
MOBIL 1 IS THE BEST !
No flame please !
</font>
---
Gs400-TRd
Gs400 /jade /nakamichi /HID /HIDFogs /17" /Borla Kevlar Exhaust /TRd CAI
02-18-2001, 07:43 AM
#7
Suzuka Master
Thank god, some validation.... I called the Mobil people after that tale about Mobil 1 being adulterated. (The engineer said they did not mix in dino oil byproducts!)
I ran Mobil 1 in my Maxima and in my 2nd BMW engine. The BMW 4 cyl. engine (320 derived - high output) was very, very clean after 200k miles on it. The original 2002ti engine started life before Mobil 1, got oil changed every 1500-3000 miles, and I used to adjust the eccentric adjusters. The inside of the valve cover just got more and more dirty.
The 2nd engine (320 block) that got broken in with 30 weight non-detergent, then got Mobil 1 (15W-50) for the rest of its life. It was always spotless.
The Maxima was also spotless running 5W-30
BTW -- when I talked to the Acura dealer, they are still telling people that they can switch to Mobil 1 right away. I don't think this is correct. MHO -- I would wait 2000 miles or more before changing to the Mobil 1. Be sure to change engine speed and load constantly during break-in -- it will help seat the rings.
------------------
2001 Satin Silver Cl-S w/ NAVI
[This message has been edited by EricL (edited 02-18-2001).]
I ran Mobil 1 in my Maxima and in my 2nd BMW engine. The BMW 4 cyl. engine (320 derived - high output) was very, very clean after 200k miles on it. The original 2002ti engine started life before Mobil 1, got oil changed every 1500-3000 miles, and I used to adjust the eccentric adjusters. The inside of the valve cover just got more and more dirty.
The 2nd engine (320 block) that got broken in with 30 weight non-detergent, then got Mobil 1 (15W-50) for the rest of its life. It was always spotless.
The Maxima was also spotless running 5W-30
BTW -- when I talked to the Acura dealer, they are still telling people that they can switch to Mobil 1 right away. I don't think this is correct. MHO -- I would wait 2000 miles or more before changing to the Mobil 1. Be sure to change engine speed and load constantly during break-in -- it will help seat the rings.
------------------
2001 Satin Silver Cl-S w/ NAVI
- Mud Guards
- Wheel locks
- Toyo 235/45ZR17-97W* T1S Proxies on Stock 17" CLS wheels
- Gtech 1/8th tank 40F ~=6.1
- Zaino magic
[This message has been edited by EricL (edited 02-18-2001).]
Trending Topics
04-13-2007, 11:24 PM
#9
Safety Car
I Call Shenanigans . . .
"Do not run synthetics in a new rebuild. A new engine needs the added
friction allowed by mineral oils to set the rings properly."
Bullshit! Every new car I have owned was changed to synthetic oil at 500-1000 miles and never had a problem with rings not seating.
friction allowed by mineral oils to set the rings properly."
Bullshit! Every new car I have owned was changed to synthetic oil at 500-1000 miles and never had a problem with rings not seating.
04-14-2007, 02:31 PM
#10
Missing my
Does this mean that you don't need to change the oil filter til 7000 miles too? Less contaminants = less filtration needed? This might be a dumb question, but I wanna get it right. 
04-15-2007, 08:42 AM
#12
Suzuka Master
Originally Posted by tnobori1
Does this mean that you don't need to change the oil filter til 7000 miles too? Less contaminants = less filtration needed? This might be a dumb question, but I wanna get it right.
If you buy high quality filter such as Mobil 1 EP/Amsoil filter, it should be defiantly good for 7-10K miles. 10K miles makes sense, but you still need to change your oil at least once a year regardless of miles (due to the moisture build up).
04-15-2007, 11:02 PM
#14
Safety Car
Generally good info (surprise, synthetic is better than mineral!) but this guy is more likely a lab tech or assistant than an Engineer. He writes at an 8th grade level in a most unscientific manner. In short, he does not appear to speak "Engineer".
An Engineer would know that a device which transforms heat energy into work is an "engine" which belongs to the larger family of devices that transform any kind of energy into motion and are called "motors".
While motor is not incorrect it certainally lacks the specifity expected of a scientist.
An Engineer would know that a device which transforms heat energy into work is an "engine" which belongs to the larger family of devices that transform any kind of energy into motion and are called "motors".
While motor is not incorrect it certainally lacks the specifity expected of a scientist.
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