supercharger fpr swapped out and car still pings?
09-03-2003, 03:39 PM
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supercharger fpr swapped out and car still pings?
well i just swapped the fpr for a new one thanx to comptech and went for a run and she is still pinging at vtec range what should i check next? heres the stats at idle 35psi,with vaccum pulled 60psi
09-03-2003, 05:12 PM
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He's had this problem from day 1.
As you increase boost, the fuel pressure should continue to rise at a rate of 12 PSI of fuel pressure for each PSI of boost. At a static FP of 60psi, add 12 psi fp, for each psi of boost. You will hit 100 psi of fp at 3.5 psi of boost, and at 4.5 psi boost you'll be in the neighborhood of 120 psi. In Erik's case, he goes to 100 and then as boost and rpm increase, his fuel pressure drops to 95 psi. The same thing happened when he bumped the static fp to 70 psi,... it dropped to 95 psi as boost and rpm increased.
As you increase boost, the fuel pressure should continue to rise at a rate of 12 PSI of fuel pressure for each PSI of boost. At a static FP of 60psi, add 12 psi fp, for each psi of boost. You will hit 100 psi of fp at 3.5 psi of boost, and at 4.5 psi boost you'll be in the neighborhood of 120 psi. In Erik's case, he goes to 100 and then as boost and rpm increase, his fuel pressure drops to 95 psi. The same thing happened when he bumped the static fp to 70 psi,... it dropped to 95 psi as boost and rpm increased.
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09-03-2003, 05:22 PM
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i was just thinking,i heard that if the egr valve is not operating properly that can cause ping,also if the knock sensor is failing that can cause pinging as well.first thing im doing is going to call comptech and maybe i should swap the plugs for new ones first!!! then continue from there as we now know its not the fpr nor the fuel pump since that was checked and swaped last time around.maybe my guage is not showing correctly brad i just dont know and im so frustrated
09-03-2003, 05:36 PM
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okay ... so as per the FPR instructions on C/T site the range of the fuel pressure with NO VACUUM/ vacuum line pulled should be between 50-80 psi.
He is seeing 60...
Since this all trial and error over the phone/Pm's/E-mail I can't really understand this detonation issue... I have not heard any detonation what-so-ever from my car.... Now I DID NOTICE while speaking on the telephone with Eric that his blower sounds like a can of dried peas rattling in a tin can... I know my blower only makes some noise when the car sits for a few days... I would imagine it does that till it picks up oil... then the noise stops after I blip the gas
He NEEDS TO GET THAT auto meter gauge inside the car and make sure he pegs the gauge and stays there... Once fuel is out of the question, I say go to spark...
He is seeing 60...
Since this all trial and error over the phone/Pm's/E-mail I can't really understand this detonation issue... I have not heard any detonation what-so-ever from my car.... Now I DID NOTICE while speaking on the telephone with Eric that his blower sounds like a can of dried peas rattling in a tin can... I know my blower only makes some noise when the car sits for a few days... I would imagine it does that till it picks up oil... then the noise stops after I blip the gas
He NEEDS TO GET THAT auto meter gauge inside the car and make sure he pegs the gauge and stays there... Once fuel is out of the question, I say go to spark...
09-04-2003, 02:56 AM
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guys your not going to believe this but i went out this morning and pulled the imrc plug and went for a run and guess what no ping whatsoever no matter what i did she did not ping!!!!!!!!!!!! what the hell is going with that imrc? smooth pull all the way to redline and not even a noise.
09-04-2003, 03:11 AM
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imrc. At its heart, the system uses a large two-chamber intake plenum separated by a valve, which opens at 3800 rpm and is actuated by an electric motor.
At low and mid engine speeds, the valve is closed – creating a resonance charge condition where pressure pulsation between cylinder banks are separated. In doing so, air filling the cylinders increases with the resonance energy from the adjoining cylinder of each bank (Helmholtz principle).
At mid to high engine rpm, the valve opens and an inertial charge condition is achieved. Increased air filling then occurs when the manifold volume (plenum) is increased and the resonance condition is eliminated. This phenomenon utilizes the high flow mass to pressurize the manifold port air, producing a natural “supercharger” effect.
The increased airflow and improved cylinder filling is the fundamental reason for the efficient combustion and subsequent power.
At low and mid engine speeds, the valve is closed – creating a resonance charge condition where pressure pulsation between cylinder banks are separated. In doing so, air filling the cylinders increases with the resonance energy from the adjoining cylinder of each bank (Helmholtz principle).
At mid to high engine rpm, the valve opens and an inertial charge condition is achieved. Increased air filling then occurs when the manifold volume (plenum) is increased and the resonance condition is eliminated. This phenomenon utilizes the high flow mass to pressurize the manifold port air, producing a natural “supercharger” effect.
The increased airflow and improved cylinder filling is the fundamental reason for the efficient combustion and subsequent power.
09-04-2003, 06:15 AM
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The increased boost after removing the IMRC connector would be a result of decreased flow (increased resistance to flow). This might cause the cylinders to fill less efficiently thus richening up the curve. The increased boost would also raise the fuel pressure some adding even more fuel.
I'm kinda on a fence about this though. At first thought any increased resistance to flow is bad and contrary to what i thought would occur. But on the flip side, this might be the appropriate method for running higher boost levels due to a more consistent air flow delivery.
I guess the end results are the ones which matter. If you are able to run fine without knock and without decreased power with the IMRC disconnected, that is the direction to take.
I'm kinda on a fence about this though. At first thought any increased resistance to flow is bad and contrary to what i thought would occur. But on the flip side, this might be the appropriate method for running higher boost levels due to a more consistent air flow delivery.
I guess the end results are the ones which matter. If you are able to run fine without knock and without decreased power with the IMRC disconnected, that is the direction to take.
09-04-2003, 10:58 AM
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perhaps he is still having bad luck with the FPR. I don't know if this would solve his problem but it could be another direction that could give him the desired results.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2430359408
it is an electronic FPR so to say. As boost increases, it increases voltage to the fuel pump, thus increasing fuel pressure under boost. I was thinking about using one of these when I install my vortech head unit in my TL. It may be the answer in your case.
I still suspect a faulty FPR from comptech
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2430359408
it is an electronic FPR so to say. As boost increases, it increases voltage to the fuel pump, thus increasing fuel pressure under boost. I was thinking about using one of these when I install my vortech head unit in my TL. It may be the answer in your case.
I still suspect a faulty FPR from comptech
09-04-2003, 11:05 AM
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If pressure is reached and drops as the revs increase it is a volume issue. In most cases this is a fuel pump. Although it could be FPR related, I have a hard timing grasping the mechanics of it. The diaphram would need to "let up" as flow rates through the regulator decreased.
09-04-2003, 11:46 AM
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It is supposed to be the high flow stock replacement available. But that doesn't mean the correct one wasn't sent by mistake, etc.
The one common denominator between Eric and I is that we both were the first to get this kit back in Feb. We both have seen this phenomenon so...
The one common denominator between Eric and I is that we both were the first to get this kit back in Feb. We both have seen this phenomenon so...
09-04-2003, 11:57 AM
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well i havent heard back from shad yet so im going to call for the 3rd time now,i do suspect the pump is not flowing fast enough to give us the pressure we need in the critical area from 4800-6000
09-04-2003, 12:20 PM
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aaaah ha... Eureka..... so I guess your going to corrolate pump serial numbers and such when you swap them out ?...
Write it all down and report back... I think i have a picture of both pumps that CT sent me.....Since 1 was missing the suction filter pin....
Write it all down and report back... I think i have a picture of both pumps that CT sent me.....Since 1 was missing the suction filter pin....
09-04-2003, 12:55 PM
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Just an FYI,.....With all this going on, I decided to pay close attention to the wideband o2 meter as I was on my way back from a three hour road trip today. I had thought my o2 was bottomed out, at all WOT RPM, but with a long open 4 laner, I was able to watch it at high speed, high rpm, and at the top end, the wideband came out of the cellar at about 6k rpm, and climbed to 10.7:1 at the redline, with the IMRC on and off. And that is with the fuel presure pegged over 100 psi the entire time. So if you don't have the volume to maintain your presure up high, surely you could head into a lean condition at the worst possible time!
09-04-2003, 01:12 PM
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ok spoke to shad at comptech and they are sending me a new pump overnight,shad said that the fuel pressure will drop at the higher rpms because the injectors stay open longer well this is it guys if i dont solve it with the pump i dont know what to do,shes pegged at over 100psi at low rpm and then pressure drops at high rpm after 4000 above and continues dropping down to 93psi.shad said that was okay.but brad stays pegged over 100psi all the time under wot so i dont get it!!!!!!!!! oh and im changing the filter bag
oh and im changing the filter bag
09-04-2003, 01:37 PM
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yeah the suction filter should be changed....good move Eric.
Like I said.. write down the numbers on the new and old pumps. we are going to have to play inspector gadget on this one...
but I don't understand if he says it is normal, WHY IS HE SENDING YOU A new PUMP??
So did Shad explain to you the detonation with IMRC connected in the 5200-5500 RPM. range?
Like I said.. write down the numbers on the new and old pumps. we are going to have to play inspector gadget on this one...
but I don't understand if he says it is normal, WHY IS HE SENDING YOU A new PUMP??
So did Shad explain to you the detonation with IMRC connected in the 5200-5500 RPM. range?
09-04-2003, 03:37 PM
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ok when for another run tonight and here is the deal launched the car in 2nd from 2000rpm to the floor till the top of 4th and the fuel pressure was around 88psi through the whole run.again at low rpm shes pegged very breifly at 100 but then drops and hovers around 88-90!!!.too low in my opinion.but again no ping since imrc is not plugged in and the car is an animal.tommorow we do the fuel pump swap and will report tommorow night as per the results.comptech has been very helpful with me and they are trying everything to make it right for me so thanx shad for being very nice.
09-04-2003, 04:12 PM
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read this steve smitty brad
Rising rate fuel pressure regulator - A simple method of fuel correction in turbocharged systems. These are better than nothing, but far from good. They increase fuel pressure in your fuel system as a function of manifold pressure. Basically what they do is monitor your manifold pressure and as it increases the regulator increases fuel pressure. The idea sounds good, the higher the manifold pressure, the more air is entering the engine, therefor you need more fuel to keep the A/F proper. One problem with this idea is that increasing fuel pressure 2 times will not increase fuel delivery 2 times, but somewhat less. It becomes obvious that this type of fuel correction is only viable in low to medium-low boost applications (up to roughly 9 psi), too high boost will spike fuel pressure very high (fuel pressure in a rising rate system is limited by the maximum pressure delivered by the given fuel pump). So if you turn up the boost in a rising rate system past a certain point, it is not feasable to expect the fuel delivery to keep up with you. Also, these devices work on boost pressure, regardless of RPM, so it will add the same amount of fuel at 5 psi (3000RPM) as it will at 5 psi (6000RPM), obviously at twice the RPM the engine will require twice the amount of fuel. These devices have many shortfalls (high fuel pressure, incorrect fuel correction) but are far better than nothing.
Adjustable fuel pressure regulator - They do the same thing as a rising rate FPR, but without monitoring boost, they are manually adjustable. This will add a certain amount of fuel throughout all RPM's. These are passive devices that, once set, stay at that setting, and do not vary with manifold pressure. These simply add fuel, and are useful in some applications
Adjustable fuel pressure regulator - They do the same thing as a rising rate FPR, but without monitoring boost, they are manually adjustable. This will add a certain amount of fuel throughout all RPM's. These are passive devices that, once set, stay at that setting, and do not vary with manifold pressure. These simply add fuel, and are useful in some applications
09-04-2003, 07:09 PM
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p.s. Steve I caught a glimpse of the e-mail/letter you sent off to C/T...
Your pressure is higher than mine...
I am at 40 idle and 70 without vacuum..... Is that too high???.. should I back it off to 30/60
No detonation/knock/ping or anything.. 94 Octane.
running smooth as can be.
Your pressure is higher than mine...
I am at 40 idle and 70 without vacuum..... Is that too high???.. should I back it off to 30/60
No detonation/knock/ping or anything.. 94 Octane.
running smooth as can be.
09-05-2003, 03:11 AM
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Q: How will I know when I need a new pump?
A: If your fuel pressure at wide-open throttle (WOT) falls off, that is a good indication that your current fuel pump can not provide the required amount of fuel. Either the voltage to your pump is weak, or your pump isn't manly enough.
hmmm very interesting
A: If your fuel pressure at wide-open throttle (WOT) falls off, that is a good indication that your current fuel pump can not provide the required amount of fuel. Either the voltage to your pump is weak, or your pump isn't manly enough.
hmmm very interesting
09-05-2003, 03:38 AM
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Originally posted by types1967
shad said that the fuel pressure will drop at the higher rpms because the injectors stay open longer
shad said that the fuel pressure will drop at the higher rpms because the injectors stay open longer
In other words, the pulse width stays about the same but the duty cycle increases. But in the end, more fuel is flowing.
09-05-2003, 03:39 AM
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Originally posted by Smitty
I am at 40 idle and 70 without vacuum..... Is that too high???.. should I back it off to 30/60
I am at 40 idle and 70 without vacuum..... Is that too high???.. should I back it off to 30/60
Comptech tunes the regulators for 65 - 70 PSI without vacuum and 36 - 40 PSI with 20" Hg vacuum.
09-05-2003, 03:41 AM
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Originally posted by types1967
Q: How will I know when I need a new pump?
A: If your fuel pressure at wide-open throttle (WOT) falls off, that is a good indication that your current fuel pump can not provide the required amount of fuel. Either the voltage to your pump is weak, or your pump isn't manly enough.
hmmm very interesting
Q: How will I know when I need a new pump?
A: If your fuel pressure at wide-open throttle (WOT) falls off, that is a good indication that your current fuel pump can not provide the required amount of fuel. Either the voltage to your pump is weak, or your pump isn't manly enough.
hmmm very interesting
Let's see what this new pump does; let me know ASAP.
09-06-2003, 05:06 AM
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Originally posted by types1967
very funny brad abd steve im putting the pump in monday morning and yes i was drinking last night and feel like shit this am:sqnteek:
very funny brad abd steve im putting the pump in monday morning and yes i was drinking last night and feel like shit this am:sqnteek:
:P 
