mblock66

Ok I just bought my first mod being the AEM cold air intake and I really have the itch now. I haven't even gotten the AEM yet and I am looking for my next mod already. But i am in a lease and don't want to spend a lot of money on mods and definately not on installs. I would like to get sways but not right now.

So I am looking at the the strut tower brace. I was wondering if any of you have installed one and what type of improvements do you feel? Is it worth the $100? Thanks

BIGPOPPA21

i got this installed with my springs, sways ,and tires so i can't tell you what (or if) there is any diffrence, but from what i here it quickens steering response it also looks good in chrome.

fbazakos

it's a decent mod for the money. you can also do the lower tie bar .. those help with the twisiting of the body. since you're on a lease ... that's a good avenue.

Chris

i think for the money, it's worth it. steering is definitely improved as it seems like it's more responsive now. handling wise, don't really remember because i put that thing on a long time ago... just get it!

EricL

The more mods you do (tires, wheels, springs, sways), the more the tower brace will help...

I got it, and it helps. I ran one side of my car up and down the sidewalk where the curbs hit the street (to simulate loading and unloading my car). The car made a few squeaks in the dash before installation. After the install the dash creaks/squeaks were gone.

The other difference "seems" to be better turn-in and slightly better steering feel on tigher corners.

I don't know how much this can be felt with dead stock suspension and tires, as I had already put on my sticky tires, rims, and sway bars before popping the strut bar on (in addition to the factory bar)...

IMO, couldn't hurt AND YMMV

Scooter

i'll tell u what my experience has been...i got the upperstrut bar first before springs, sways, or tires...the car felt noticeably better with steering response and slightly better with cornering, but let's face it..a bar of that size compared to a car our size isn't gonna do all that much

now after i got springs, sways, and tires, the steering response is so good, i swear i feel like im in a BMW...the upperstrut bar helps with weight transfer, but a word of caution...i, and other people have had experience in getting the back to break loose with this setup (springs, sways, ultra performance tires, upperstrut bar)...my reasoning is b/c the front is sooo rigid and solid in weight transfer, while the back isn't as rigid (logical since the front has upper and lower bars to maintain stability, and the back has only lower support)...i have not tried installing a lower strut bar, but y bother since the bar and the rear sway bar are basically in the same place??? there is another thing u could try that i have not tried either...there is, i believe, an upperstrut bar for the rear, HOWEVER, i think the bar has to physically intrude in the trunk...since the location of the rear upperstrut bar is comparable to the front upperstrut bar, that should help solve the back breaking loose issue.

basically, all u have to do is think of the law of physics and logic...having an upperstrut bar in front and a lower strut bar in the rear is not optimal...u want weight transfer to occur as close to an area as possible in both the front and rear of the car, otherwise u compromise a more even transfer...so the more beneficial effect occurs with upperstruts in front and back, lowerstrut in front and rear (either lowerstrut bars or sway bars), or the most desireable upperstrut front and back combined with sways...the car will turn on a dime so fast, make sure u got good rubber

no matter what, forces on the car start at the bottom and work their way up...sway bars help very much in side-to-side motion down low, but there are still forces acting on the upper half of the car, hence upperstrut bars...the trick is to combine the lower stability with upper stability...that is y u have more of a chance of breaking loose in the rear when u have an upperstrut bar combined with sways (the front of the car has stability in the lower and upper halves of the car vs the rear's lower half only)...so if u do not want to compromise trunk space (and trunk lining on either side of the rear mounts), and u insist on having the upperstrut bar with springs and sways, b careful!!!

sorry for the long post...i hope this helps some.

mblock66

Thanks you guys have been very helpful, but would it be worth it then if I decided to get the upper strut brace with my only other mods being AEM CAI and new rubber? That is all I am planning on doing right now. I would love to do sways but my lease only have 2 years left on it and I don't want to go throught the hassle of paying someone to put them on and then paying them to take them back off in 2 years. So I want cheap, bank for buck, easy mods that I can install. Like CAI, Rubber, Upper Strut Bar, etc.

So you don't think it is worth the $112 for the brace for a stock setup?

JasonT

Mine is leased too. Look at my sig for the mods I did. The first thing I got was the strut bar. Did it make a difference, I can't tell. I already had the bar when I picked the car up, & installed it within minutes of getting the car. I drove about a mile, then put it on That was the only performance mod I did for several months.

As far as the sways go, they were fairly easy to put on. I did it myself, but had access to a lift. It's very easy on a lift. As for taking them off at lease end...I don't think it would be a problem leaving them on. The front bar is the same size, the rear is bigger, but is black like stock, with no stickers. I dought the dealer will even notice the difference.

Scooter

i'd get sways in addition to the upperstrut bar...the upperstrut bar alone won't make much difference...the sways are hella lot more noticeable a feel!!

momentum3.2

don't we have a stock upper strut bar??

mblock66

Yeah but it sucks from what I understand and the addition of the Neuspeed one with the stock should help. I have gotten very mixed reviews as to whether it is worht it or not. Some people on the TL board swear by it as do some here and others say it is a waste of money so I don't know what to do.

momentum3.2

my first mod was my springs, only set me back about $300, had a friend install them at my local shop. I bought a set of sways but I haven't had a chance to put them in which I plan to do myself...I may get the neuspeed but I just don't know how much it will greatly affect my car having two upper strut bars on it...

just my opionato

Scooter

2 upperstrut bars are better than 1...again, apply physics here...2 bars can accept greater forces on the higher half of the car than just 1 bar...u don't hear people complaining their backs break loose under harder cornering with just sways, now do u??

it's not that the stock bar sux...it's fine...does it's job...Neuspeed compliments the stock bar very well...and don't think that u should take off the stock bar just b/c u got the Neuspeed b/c u'd b really cancelling out any differences replacing one bar with another...remember, 2 is better than 1

blazerbob1

Neuspeed Upper Strut made noticeable improvement on secure handling of car and I don't even have decent tires yet! If you want a quick, cheap, easy to install in less than 5min. mod that will help your cars handling get the Neuspeed!

Eggplant-EX

Hm... I have the Neuspeed strut bar and honestly cannot feel any difference in handling. But, in an emergency where I may need that little extra stability, I would rather have it than not.

if it is a lease, save your money.

my 2 cents..

mblock66

This is the thing i mean.

Blazerbob1 swears it is a great mod
while
Eggplant-EX says it is a waste of $

Scooter

personal preference...could it b a placebo??? possibly could it have a real effect?? probably...if nothing else, at least it looks good

JRock

$132 from ACP for the chrome Neuspeed upper front tie bar. Tempting!

Someone post a couple pics of it please?

ps, Scooter, thanks for the wealth of knowledge. One question - you say two is better than one, but if one is stronger and tighter than the other, wouldn't that one just be getting all of the work, therefore making the OEM one more dead weight than anything else?

Scooter

nah...once again, the physics takes over...our Neuspeed bar can only handle so much stress before it starts to buckle...once the bar reaches max capacity, forces continue to extend towards the top of the car, and the car starts to feel top heavy...this top heavy feel is exactly what we call the "boat feel" rocking back and forth...even with my upperstrut bar and no springs or sways, i had the boat feel simply b/c the forces exerting on the bar are way too much for the bar to handle...the sway bars are designed to reduce significantly the boat feel from the source, the bottom of the car...remaining forces not absorbed by the sways will travel up the car...on the front half of the car which is heaviest, the forces are the strongest...having the upperstrut bar will absorb what remaining forces are left that the front sway doesn't absorb, however, u'll still get some leftover forces not absorbed, and then u'll get the stock tie bar to help u out...think of the stock tie bar as being the spillover bar...very valuable with stock springs and stock sways, not as valuable, but still serve a purpose with springs and sways

something cool to conceptualize, not to experience...sometimes, the forces acting on a tie bar are so great, the bar will literally snap off the strut mount and go flying, most likely rip a hole through the roof...this would b due to either a defect of some kind in the design/construction of the bar or the bar was not fastened securely enough and totally stripped the threads of the bolts...so make sure your bar is securely tight, not too tight, against the strut mount...always alternate back and forth bolts until both sides are tight enough...this allows a more even mounting...sometimes, people will do one side first, then the other, then that'll b it...it's NOT it...it's like putting lugs on a wheel...always alternate til each one is secure...same theory.

mblock66

So you are saying that it will be even more helpful and noticable with a stock setup? I was under the impression that it was felt more once aftermarket springs and sways were put on.

I am really going back and forth on this one. It really isn't the money that bothers me it is the question of whether or not I am wasting that $ on a mod I won't even feel. I don't need to protect my car for the long run either b/c in 2 year I am handing it back in but if I can really feel an improvement I will throw one on right now.

Scooter

yes and no:

yes: the stock tie bar is more useful if u do not have sways b/c the forces acting on the upper half of the car are greater

no: b/c of the fact that more forces act on the upper part of the car, u're gonna max out the bar's capabilities almost immediately, and the leftover forces NOT used will cause the boat feel...the Neuspeed bar helps absorb more forces, but still nowhere near enough to cut down on the boat feel.

Shawn S

Scooter....Those are some BIG words you’re using there.

Did you borrow my “EJUNERING FER DUMYS” book again ???

Shawn S

mblock66

Ok so theoretically you will feel the affects of the Nuespeed bar more on a stock setup because it will be able to absorb more forces then with just the stock bar alone. This will not come close to reducing all the boat feel but might help a little bit.

Scooter

ding ding ding, we have a winner!! u got it, bud!!

Scooter

nope, just off the top of my head...never took an engineering course in my life

how do u like them apples??

dsayad

i have a CL-P and would getting the neuspeed be better for my car.
You think it would be a better value for me ?

Scooter

absolutely...either models, doesn't matter

momentum3.2

makes sense to me! thanks Scooter...I should have used some logic before I smarted off given that I am an engineer however my concentration is computer engineering...

What you described makes perfect sense. I was just afraid of the typical attitude of "if it's stock there's a certain suck factor attached to it" that we see alot of. I agree that the stock strut bar is functional yet weak and it would do no harm to add an additional bar to support it.

Thanks again!

Cloudrnnr

Man I hate wading into a discussion with an opinion that doesn't go along with the local "expert" when I am a newbie.....but what the hell, call me an asshole--here goes:
A strut tie bar and sways/springs effect different things entirely. The strut bar effects your chassis, and the amount of flex it has...which plays into the dynamic camber and caster of your wheels....and does effect the rate of turn in and turn holding.

Springs and sways effect the spring rate of the car, which will also effect the handling, and can cause more or less chassis flex. In reality, stiffening the spring rate, through sways and springs will cause the chassis to try to flex more in response. The springs are giving as they absorb the forces of turning--stiffen that give, and something has to compensate. If the chassis has enough play, it will twist, ever so slightly to "give" to the physical forces of force and acceleration----the inner tire will go to negative camber and gain grip, the already overloaded outer tire will get positive camber and start to lose grip. Increase the spring rate, then tighten up the chassis with strut bars and lower tie bars and the "give" will occur at the tires....and the rear end will step out (oversteer).
I said before that sways and springs both effect the spring rate--true, but each is felt under different circumstances. Springs at the four corners suspend the car all the time--straight, turning, sliding. Sways only come into play with the lateral acceleration of the car is changing...the boat rocking effect that comes from turning a CL rapidly.
SO....if I were only buying one thing....or buying in a certain order, it would be strut bars, then sways, then springs. First fix the chassis flex...the car will be more stable, have less squeaks, and handle a little better with the reduction in dynamic camber. It may be more dangerous in a collision, however--the car can't give with crash forces to absorb impact as much. Sways next, simply because they will reduce the roll rate without changing the "spring ride" of the car. Finally the springs--but not so heavy as to cause the wheels to hop in a turn. Remember--cars are designed with springs for reasons other than keeping your ass comfy. Same thing applies to lowering.....but we'll have that discussion another day.
Hope I didn't bore anyone too much....feel free to disagree. No, I'm not an engineer, I'm a Air Force pilot and an aircraft accident investigator--but I also research the crap out of any topic I get interested in....and recently that was autocross and handling.

A good link about stabilizer bars. Follow the "Handling theory" link for a discussion on oversteer and understeer.
http://www.rmdsm.com/whystabilizerbars.html

JRock

So any pics of one installed on a Type S with the stock bar still on also?

Scooter

i'd send ya a few, but i can't (bandwidth )

as for what Cloudrnnr said, i pretty much agree with the effects each component has on the flex, weight transfer, etc. 2 things i wanna mention:

1. the lower strut bars really don't serve as much of a purpose b/c the sways take the bulk of the forces down there...u will get more of an effect with the upperstrut bars

2. b/c of the spring/sway/tire/strut bar combo's, the car stiffens up dramatically, meaning u won't get the rocking effect...now apply more physics and ask yourself since the boat effect had to do with the stock suspension absorbing a lot of weight transfer, what happens to the forces when u have mods and the boat effect is gone?? answer - YOU...the forces now generated on u go up significantly...y?? b/c an object in motion tends to stay in motion, while an object traveling in a circle shape wants to stay in a straight line (i forget which of Newton's Laws of Physics im using, probably the first 2)...the car has seemingly cheated physics in a funny way, but poor us have not so there is a real negative here when u think about it, and that is it's more difficult for the driver to maintain control of the car, not b/c the car can't handle it...we, the driver's, can't handle it i distinctly remember making a sharp turn starting at 40 and fish-tailing at 50 with my left foot against the side of the car, my right hand gripping the right-side wood trim on the center console, my upper half of my body in the passenger seat, and my left hand turning the wheel!!! and u know what?? i couldn't move out of that position until i let off the gas

Cloudrnnr

Scooter

???

EricL

Want to settle the issue -- get a strain gauge and put it on the stock bar. Then measure the bending moment with and without the addition of the strut bar.

Anything that keeps the tires in better contact with the road is going to help (as to what helps more or less -- who really knows)...

The other "less obvious" issue concerns the amount of "twisting" moment (both transient and static) that is reduces by the addition of the second bar. The effect is to keep the relative wheel angles in spec (see Ackerman Steering).

Austin519

I felt a sizeable improvement with the strut tie bar in...but if you want major improvement get the sways...I got mine at $250 shipped...Neuspeed front and rear race...they did more than springs...and took an hour to install. Granted the tie bar was a 5 min install...but for the extra $140 you could have a MUCH bigger difference.

Austin519