Short-ram
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Mugen Racing Team
Joined: Jan 2002
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From: Toronto
Short-ram
Is Weapon-R the only make for shortram intakes for our cars? I went to their site to take a look and found that there is a Dragon Intake and Hyper intake. Does anyone know what is the difference between them and are they short ram?
check the site out yourself www.weapon-r.com
check the site out yourself www.weapon-r.com
337
Joined: Oct 2001
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From: Iowa City/Des Moines
The only difference is the filter, the dragon is pretty looking foam one while the other is a regular looking foam one. they are both short ram.
I bought weapon r filter over a year ago, the filter lasted a few 4 months w/ cleaning it. buy a cheapy short ram off of ebay, and put a k&n filter on it.
I bought weapon r filter over a year ago, the filter lasted a few 4 months w/ cleaning it. buy a cheapy short ram off of ebay, and put a k&n filter on it.
7th Gear
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7
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From: New Haven, CT, USA
I tried to order the hyper intake ( short ram) for my CL-S. Customer support stated that they were all out of stock and won't be in until March.
I did some research on the product and found that even though they are short ram, the manufacturer claims an added 10+ HP.
Bout the same as a AEM CAI, less expensive and much easier to install ( no bypass needed)
I did some research on the product and found that even though they are short ram, the manufacturer claims an added 10+ HP.
Bout the same as a AEM CAI, less expensive and much easier to install ( no bypass needed)
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,312
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From: Baltimore
Originally posted by CLUofI
The only difference is the filter, the dragon is pretty looking foam one while the other is a regular looking foam one. they are both short ram.
I bought weapon r filter over a year ago, the filter lasted a few 4 months w/ cleaning it. buy a cheapy short ram off of ebay, and put a k&n filter on it.
The only difference is the filter, the dragon is pretty looking foam one while the other is a regular looking foam one. they are both short ram.
I bought weapon r filter over a year ago, the filter lasted a few 4 months w/ cleaning it. buy a cheapy short ram off of ebay, and put a k&n filter on it.
yup yup yop thats what i did .............. 24$ +S&H or 150 +S&H which price do you like better ? they all the same tube and filter ...........only i dont have fancy neon blue color tube and i dont have angry sounding steaker on (WeaponRStreetSuperFlowRacingUltraFast) if you really want that sticker go for 150 $ one
no matter what you say its still a tube 
Mr. PC
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 653
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From: NOVA
Originally posted by bobm
I tried to order the hyper intake ( short ram) for my CL-S. Customer support stated that they were all out of stock and won't be in until March.
I did some research on the product and found that even though they are short ram, the manufacturer claims an added 10+ HP.
Bout the same as a AEM CAI, less expensive and much easier to install ( no bypass needed)
I tried to order the hyper intake ( short ram) for my CL-S. Customer support stated that they were all out of stock and won't be in until March.
I did some research on the product and found that even though they are short ram, the manufacturer claims an added 10+ HP.
Bout the same as a AEM CAI, less expensive and much easier to install ( no bypass needed)
Banned
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 9,151
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From: Somewhere between here and there, yet neither.
Originally posted by mistacanyon
Is the 10+ HP with the cold air box? I have heard that the short intake with the cold air box makes the same (maybe a little more) HP as a CAI. But alone I would say it makes 4-5 HP depending on outside and engine temp.
Is the 10+ HP with the cold air box? I have heard that the short intake with the cold air box makes the same (maybe a little more) HP as a CAI. But alone I would say it makes 4-5 HP depending on outside and engine temp.
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Suzuka Master
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 8,869
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From: TX
I have no experience with mods, so this will probably sound like a stupid question, but how does the cold air box help add power? Based on the pictures (never having seen one in person) it looks like it would be the same as a short ram intake w/o the box. I was planning on getting an AEM CAI, because it seems to be the popular option, but I don't know what's best. If someone could educate me, I'd appreciate it.
-Thanks
-Thanks
Originally posted by mistacanyon
Is the 10+ HP with the cold air box? I have heard that the short intake with the cold air box makes the same (maybe a little more) HP as a CAI. But alone I would say it makes 4-5 HP depending on outside and engine temp.
Is the 10+ HP with the cold air box? I have heard that the short intake with the cold air box makes the same (maybe a little more) HP as a CAI. But alone I would say it makes 4-5 HP depending on outside and engine temp.
edit - Sorry, I misread your comment, you were referring to a short-ram with the add on Cold Air Box, not a regular short ram. Oh well, what I typed is still true!!
S/C'd Accord Coming Soon!
Joined: Jun 2000
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From: Lafayette, LA | Houston, TX (Weekends)
Just remember that if your car is moving, cooler outside air is entering the engine bay, so your short ram is not actually ingesting hot engine air unless you are sitting still.
Here's a little experiment you can do to test it out. Buy an indoor/outdoor thermometer from Radio Shack for $10 bucks and put the outdoor thermistor near the filter of your short ram. Let your car heat up and notice as the temp goes up into the 100's. Now start driving 25 mph for a 15-30 seconds and you will notice that the temperature immediately starts dropping. The temperature doesn't change instantly but if you drive 25mph for long enough the temperature will be within 1-2 F of the outisde temp.
I think the CAI will have the biggest advantage from a dead stop launch, but from a roll, the difference in air temperature is little to none based on the experiments I have done.
Try it for yourself and see what you get.
Here's a little experiment you can do to test it out. Buy an indoor/outdoor thermometer from Radio Shack for $10 bucks and put the outdoor thermistor near the filter of your short ram. Let your car heat up and notice as the temp goes up into the 100's. Now start driving 25 mph for a 15-30 seconds and you will notice that the temperature immediately starts dropping. The temperature doesn't change instantly but if you drive 25mph for long enough the temperature will be within 1-2 F of the outisde temp.
I think the CAI will have the biggest advantage from a dead stop launch, but from a roll, the difference in air temperature is little to none based on the experiments I have done.
Try it for yourself and see what you get.
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,312
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From: Baltimore
Originally posted by BNut
Just remember that if your car is moving, cooler outside air is entering the engine bay, so your short ram is not actually ingesting hot engine air unless you are sitting still.
Here's a little experiment you can do to test it out. Buy an indoor/outdoor thermometer from Radio Shack for $10 bucks and put the outdoor thermistor near the filter of your short ram. Let your car heat up and notice as the temp goes up into the 100's. Now start driving 25 mph for a 15-30 seconds and you will notice that the temperature immediately starts dropping. The temperature doesn't change instantly but if you drive 25mph for long enough the temperature will be within 1-2 F of the outisde temp.
I think the CAI will have the biggest advantage from a dead stop launch, but from a roll, the difference in air temperature is little to none based on the experiments I have done.
Try it for yourself and see what you get.
Just remember that if your car is moving, cooler outside air is entering the engine bay, so your short ram is not actually ingesting hot engine air unless you are sitting still.
Here's a little experiment you can do to test it out. Buy an indoor/outdoor thermometer from Radio Shack for $10 bucks and put the outdoor thermistor near the filter of your short ram. Let your car heat up and notice as the temp goes up into the 100's. Now start driving 25 mph for a 15-30 seconds and you will notice that the temperature immediately starts dropping. The temperature doesn't change instantly but if you drive 25mph for long enough the temperature will be within 1-2 F of the outisde temp.
I think the CAI will have the biggest advantage from a dead stop launch, but from a roll, the difference in air temperature is little to none based on the experiments I have done.
Try it for yourself and see what you get.
Originally posted by GoldieAlek
this is THE best explanation i've ever heard heard ! thank you !
this is THE best explanation i've ever heard heard ! thank you !
I would still think that having a CAI gives the engine more access to cooler air b/c of the filter location. I mean, there is definitely airflow to the engine that a short ram uses, but I would still think that relying on ventilation while moving isn't as efficient. I don't know, I could be wrong... I don't know much about this stuff. I just bought the pretty blue one to match my car....
Suzuka Master
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 7,388
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From: Ninth Gate & So Cal
Originally posted by juniorbean
I'd have to agree... that was good, and you make good points.
I would still think that having a CAI gives the engine more access to cooler air b/c of the filter location. I mean, there is definitely airflow to the engine that a short ram uses, but I would still think that relying on ventilation while moving isn't as efficient. I don't know, I could be wrong... I don't know much about this stuff. I just bought the pretty blue one to match my car....
I'd have to agree... that was good, and you make good points.
I would still think that having a CAI gives the engine more access to cooler air b/c of the filter location. I mean, there is definitely airflow to the engine that a short ram uses, but I would still think that relying on ventilation while moving isn't as efficient. I don't know, I could be wrong... I don't know much about this stuff. I just bought the pretty blue one to match my car....
Actually, I made-up a small temp gauge and the temps cool down under the hood, once the car gets moving. The air will always be coldest at the bottom, but once car is moving, there is plenty of air getting pulled in.
If someone is interested in the very last HP, then the air should be routed from outside of the engine bay. However, when your talking about road racing at 80-100 MPH, there is so much turbulence to help air mixing, that the temp issue becomes moot (with some exotic exceptions).
I explored this very issue in regards to the water bypass valve and found temps near to 200-degrees F around the location of the valve with extended idling on a warm day.
Pro
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 736
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From: Honolulu, HI
Guys,
IMO, the short ram and CAI will more or less produce about equal HP once moving. However, the real issue is the length of the tubing. As you know, the length of the tubings plays an important role in the resonance effect in the air flow. If you look at all the Dynos comparing HP between CAI and Short RAM type of intakes, you'll notice that the CAI produces more HP in the mid range than the Short Ram, but similar HP in the upper range. This is due to the resonance effect. In fact, an improperly designed Short Ram will have its resonance effect beyond most automobiles' redline, and you will not reap much benefit.
IMO, the short ram and CAI will more or less produce about equal HP once moving. However, the real issue is the length of the tubing. As you know, the length of the tubings plays an important role in the resonance effect in the air flow. If you look at all the Dynos comparing HP between CAI and Short RAM type of intakes, you'll notice that the CAI produces more HP in the mid range than the Short Ram, but similar HP in the upper range. This is due to the resonance effect. In fact, an improperly designed Short Ram will have its resonance effect beyond most automobiles' redline, and you will not reap much benefit.
Suzuka Master
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 7,388
Likes: 1
From: Ninth Gate & So Cal
Originally posted by FDao
Guys,
IMO, the short ram and CAI will more or less produce about equal HP once moving. However, the real issue is the length of the tubing. As you know, the length of the tubings plays an important role in the resonance effect in the air flow. If you look at all the Dynos comparing HP between CAI and Short RAM type of intakes, you'll notice that the CAI produces more HP in the mid range than the Short Ram, but similar HP in the upper range. This is due to the resonance effect. In fact, an improperly designed Short Ram will have its resonance effect beyond most automobiles' redline, and you will not reap much benefit.
Guys,
IMO, the short ram and CAI will more or less produce about equal HP once moving. However, the real issue is the length of the tubing. As you know, the length of the tubings plays an important role in the resonance effect in the air flow. If you look at all the Dynos comparing HP between CAI and Short RAM type of intakes, you'll notice that the CAI produces more HP in the mid range than the Short Ram, but similar HP in the upper range. This is due to the resonance effect. In fact, an improperly designed Short Ram will have its resonance effect beyond most automobiles' redline, and you will not reap much benefit.
Should be like that...
But...
When I looked at the dyno of the AEM CAI vs. the Weapon-R short ram (with cold air box), the curves (when superimposed via scaling, translation, and rotation) looked very similar – in fact, the curves were more similar than different (in my opinion).
Yes, the resonance should be an issue and in general the longer pipe will boost low speed performance. OTOH, there are some rather nasty interactions going on between the Helmholtz resonance (in the plenum) and the rest of the "system".
I would feel better about coming to a conclusion about the differences once compared to a car with a RES on it (one car with headers, short ram, and RES *and* the other with headers, AEM CAI, and RES).
BTW -- the power curve (no sure of smoothing used) of the Weapon-R, showed a "comb" filter like response in the upper 6K range (lots of ripple in the HP curve).
Pro
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 736
Likes: 0
From: Honolulu, HI
Originally posted by EricL
Should be like that...
But...
When I looked at the dyno of the AEM CAI vs. the Weapon-R short ram (with cold air box), the curves (when superimposed via scaling, translation, and rotation) looked very similar – in fact, the curves were more similar than different (in my opinion).
Yes, the resonance should be an issue and in general the longer pipe will boost low speed performance. OTOH, there are some rather nasty interactions going on between the Helmholtz resonance (in the plenum) and the rest of the "system".
I would feel better about coming to a conclusion about the differences once compared to a car with a RES on it (one car with headers, short ram, and RES *and* the other with headers, AEM CAI, and RES).
BTW -- the power curve (no sure of smoothing used) of the Weapon-R, showed a "comb" filter like response in the upper 6K range (lots of ripple in the HP curve).
Should be like that...
But...
When I looked at the dyno of the AEM CAI vs. the Weapon-R short ram (with cold air box), the curves (when superimposed via scaling, translation, and rotation) looked very similar – in fact, the curves were more similar than different (in my opinion).
Yes, the resonance should be an issue and in general the longer pipe will boost low speed performance. OTOH, there are some rather nasty interactions going on between the Helmholtz resonance (in the plenum) and the rest of the "system".
I would feel better about coming to a conclusion about the differences once compared to a car with a RES on it (one car with headers, short ram, and RES *and* the other with headers, AEM CAI, and RES).
BTW -- the power curve (no sure of smoothing used) of the Weapon-R, showed a "comb" filter like response in the upper 6K range (lots of ripple in the HP curve).
Eric,
Good point. It would interesting to see if the tubing theory "holds water" with the RES. You brought up an interesting point about the interaction of the Plenum resonance and the rest of the intake system. I wonder if there's any "canceling" effect?
I looked at the Dyno plot of the Weapon-R cold airbox and the AEM CAI. You're right, they do look rather similar! I wonder why? In theory, the Weapon-R curve should shift more to the upper RPM based on tubing theory. In fact, there's something funny going on @ 6K. Don't you think?
Suzuka Master
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 7,388
Likes: 1
From: Ninth Gate & So Cal
Originally posted by FDao
Eric,
Good point. It would interesting to see if the tubing theory "holds water" with the RES. You brought up an interesting point about the interaction of the Plenum resonance and the rest of the intake system. I wonder if there's any "canceling" effect?
I looked at the Dyno plot of the Weapon-R cold airbox and the AEM CAI. You're right, they do look rather similar! I wonder why? In theory, the Weapon-R curve should shift more to the upper RPM based on tubing theory. In fact, there's something funny going on @ 6K. Don't you think?
Eric,
Good point. It would interesting to see if the tubing theory "holds water" with the RES. You brought up an interesting point about the interaction of the Plenum resonance and the rest of the intake system. I wonder if there's any "canceling" effect?
I looked at the Dyno plot of the Weapon-R cold airbox and the AEM CAI. You're right, they do look rather similar! I wonder why? In theory, the Weapon-R curve should shift more to the upper RPM based on tubing theory. In fact, there's something funny going on @ 6K. Don't you think?
The "funny" stuff is the extremely "rough"/"peaky" curve at 6K+. It looks like a "comb filter"...
It may just be that the shorter tube provides less "damping" than the AEM CAI (in relation to the pulse tuning in the plenum)
(It is probably unrelated, but that UFO sound that people mention in the Weapon-R, does NOT show up in the AEM CAI. The Helmholtz resonance is governed by a set of 2nd order differential equations and the "damping" provided by the intake pipe could have a profound effect on the "system". I would assume that the damping would be greater in a longer pipe with less in a shorter pipe -- I need to order that SAE paper sooner than later [on Helmholtz resonance simulation, design, and governing equations])
The equations do take the form of:
m1 f’’(x) = k(x-y) = 0
m2 f’’(y) = k(y-x) = -F
m1 is the mass of the air in the intake (AEM or Weapon-R)
m2 is the mass of the air in a particular intake runner
x = corresponds/equivalent/analog for length of intake
y = corresponds/equivalent/analog for individual intake runner length
k = spring rate
m1 corresponding to the mass of the air in the “intake” pipe would presumably alter the “resonance” of the “system” (greater mass corresponding to lower resonance freq and greater damping at higher frequencies)…
(The explanation is thin at best without supporting graphs and examples in the simple diagram I am enclosing)
Links:
http://www.eng-tips.com/gviewthread..../108/qid/10972
http://www.eng.fsu.edu/~shih/eml4421...d%20tuning.pdf
http://www.geocities.com/mikey9t6/car_uvwxyz_vris.htm
http://www.eng.ed.ac.uk/~jchick/Y5/t...c_html/pt7.htm
http://www.grapeaperacing.com/GrapeA...ehelmholtz.cfm
SAE paper 871977
(Needs to be ordered by phone vs. online [as some people suggest])
The models attempt to go from a single mass/spring system to a system of equations
Pro
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 736
Likes: 0
From: Honolulu, HI
Originally posted by EricL
The equations do take the form of:
m1 f’’(x) = k(x-y) = 0
m2 f’’(y) = k(y-x) = -F
m1 is the mass of the air in the intake (AEM or Weapon-R)
m2 is the mass of the air in a particular intake runner
x = corresponds/equivalent/analog for length of intake
y = corresponds/equivalent/analog for individual intake runner length
k = spring rate
m1 corresponding to the mass of the air in the “intake” pipe would presumably alter the “resonance” of the “system” (greater mass corresponding to lower resonance freq and greater damping at higher frequencies)…
(The explanation is thin at best without supporting graphs and examples in the simple diagram I am enclosing)
The equations do take the form of:
m1 f’’(x) = k(x-y) = 0
m2 f’’(y) = k(y-x) = -F
m1 is the mass of the air in the intake (AEM or Weapon-R)
m2 is the mass of the air in a particular intake runner
x = corresponds/equivalent/analog for length of intake
y = corresponds/equivalent/analog for individual intake runner length
k = spring rate
m1 corresponding to the mass of the air in the “intake” pipe would presumably alter the “resonance” of the “system” (greater mass corresponding to lower resonance freq and greater damping at higher frequencies)…
(The explanation is thin at best without supporting graphs and examples in the simple diagram I am enclosing)
. I wonder, how much of that is responsible for the damping effect vs the length of the tubing?
Suzuka Master
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 7,388
Likes: 1
From: Ninth Gate & So Cal
Originally posted by FDao
Excellent research Eric! So, if m1 is the mass of the air in the intake, and the "comb filter" appearance may be due to the mass of the air, then it appears that AEM has better flow capability than Weapon-R . I wonder, how much of that is responsible for the damping effect vs the length of the tubing?
Excellent research Eric! So, if m1 is the mass of the air in the intake, and the "comb filter" appearance may be due to the mass of the air, then it appears that AEM has better flow capability than Weapon-R
. I wonder, how much of that is responsible for the damping effect vs the length of the tubing?
Oops...
This:
m1 f’’(x) = k(x-y) = 0
m2 f’’(y) = k(y-x) = -F
Should have been this:
m1 f’’(x) + k(x-y) = 0
m2 f’’(y) + k(y-x) = -F
(I didn't even notice the missing "plus" signs...)
The larger amount of air mass in the longer column is similar to hanging a larger weight on a spring (the k(...)) item. If you hung a large mass on the end of a spring, and pulled on the spring, you would have a very slow and damped movement (from the hanging mass/weight). If you put a very small weight/mass on the end of a spring (hanging down under the force of gravity), a much smaller mass would bob up-and-down at a much higher frequency. The analogy follows for the amount of air (and mass) in the respective tubes. The AEM has more air (and more mass) in the longer tube as both pipe diameters are the same...
Pro
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 736
Likes: 0
From: Honolulu, HI
Originally posted by EricL
The AEM has more air (and more mass) in the longer tube as both pipe diameters are the same...
The AEM has more air (and more mass) in the longer tube as both pipe diameters are the same...
Suzuka Master
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 7,388
Likes: 1
From: Ninth Gate & So Cal
Originally posted by FDao
It appears that the AEM flows better than the Weapon-R based on the equation, but again, how much of the tubing plays a role in this dampening effect?
It appears that the AEM flows better than the Weapon-R based on the equation, but again, how much of the tubing plays a role in this dampening effect?
At this point, I'm waiting to see how the results (whenever they get started) of testing the RES mod with short rams and the longer length AEM CAI.
I think it is probably time to order the SAE paper (I've been trying to get around to actually calling them for too long...)
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