02AV6

Ok, Tom I stopped by the shop on the way home and measured them all like this



So they stand on the following order as seen above with multiple pics

CL-S (FR) ___15 11/16"
RL (FR)_____15 1/5"
RL(RR)_____15 5/16"
CL-S (RR)___15 7/16"

So, as you can see the front (FR) CL-S cam is much longer than '06 RL (FR). That is the issue since it's going to be too close to TDC sensor.

Let me know what are the dimensions on '05 both cams. But most important is FR cam.

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

02av6 or anyone else... is the TDC Sensor placed different in the RL? maybe this is how it clears. i'm just trying to figure out what acura did.

02AV6

And just for heck of it if you want to know the complete length including end caps. So they measured like this.



CL-S (FR)____15 7/8"
RL (FR)______15 11/16"
RL (RR)______15 1/2"
CL-S (RR)______15 11/16"

02AV6

RL TDC sensor positioned the same as CL-S on the front head (left side attached to a plate next to a cam gear). However, they are different sensors along with cam gears since part # in CL-S and RL of course do not match. How gears are different or identical who knows ?

02AV6

We're working on it

blk2001tlon19s

Hopefully the measurements that tom gets will be good.

02AV6

Edit: Need to correct the measurements on RL (FR)



CL-S (FR) ___15 11/16"
RL (FR)_____15 1/2"
RL(RR)_____15 5/16"
CL-S (RR)___15 7/16"

So, as you can see the front (FR) '06 RL cam is shorter than CL-S (FR). That is the issue since it's going to be too close to TDC sensor.

Let me know what are the dimensions on '05 both cams. But most important is FR cam.

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

i cant imagine 05 cams being different than 06, this doesnt seem cost effective to acura at all. but then again, acura/honda has done weirder things. thinking again, the price difference must make up for something. maybe they were redesigned once they caught wind of people swapping them into our heads.. haha.

ps. 02av6, if the 05s are butter, you will see some nice gains.

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

upon some more thought, at the time i ordered all my parts, i told my parts guy exactly what i was doing, he works for acura parts but he has dealt with the 3.5 swaps before, and the fact that i ordered the cams didnt phase him at all, he would have mentioned something if it bothered him, he is extremely helpful like that. but i remember all the parts he ordered he specifically ordered from the 05 year.

ThinJim

iTrader: (3)

Here's the long awaited answer.


Front RL cam from end to end is 15 3/4" 15 13/16"

Front RL cam from end to ? is 15 1/2"

Rear RL cam end to end is 15 9/16"

Rear RL cam end to ? 15 5/16"

both cam side by side, front on top, rear on bottom. If your wondering why it says 16'', it's because I didn't use the end of the tape measure, started at 1''.





measurement of front cam, on top,





another view.






measurement of rear cam.







What does this mean? Means there is some legwork to be done. If you end up using the rl tdc sensor, which I believe there is only one, the cl has tdc1 and tdc2, it won't work with your ecu. You'd have to go stand alone and be creative on assembly.

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

hmm.. thinjim's measurements of the 05 RL Cams and 02AV6's measurements of the CL-S Cams are off by 2mm evenly all around.

blk2001tlon19s

typeR

yo thin not sure im following your above mentioned measurements? does it go '05 RL then '06?

02AV6

No, he measured all '05. "cam end to ?" means from the end on the left to before end-cap on the right.

02AV6

length without right side end-cap


CL-S (FR) _____15 11/16"
'06 RL (FR)_____15 1/2"
'05 RL (FR)_____15 1/2"

'06 RL(RR)_____15 5/16"
'05 RL(RR)_____15 5/16"
CL-S (RR)___15 7/16"

complete length end-to-end


CL-S (FR)_______15 7/8"
'06 RL (FR)______15 11/16"
'05 RL (FR)______15 13/16"

'06 RL (RR)______15 1/2"
'05 RL (RR)______15 9/16"
CL-S (RR)_______15 11/16"

Hmm, doesn't look good since both '05 and '06 are the same before end-cap.
I might be off 1/16" or so when measured complete length-to-length on '06 but it doesn't matter. What matters is that before end-cap both cams are identical:

'06 RL (FR)_____15 1/2"
'05 RL (FR)_____15 1/2"

'06 RL(RR)_____15 5/16"
'05 RL(RR)_____15 5/16"

Well, we still getting the '05 cam so we'll check again, but it doesn't look good.
As far as TDC sensor correct, RL has one while CL-S two. Regardless, I wouldn't use or anyone else for that matter that sensor.

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

what about having the CL-S cams ground to the RL spec?

johntypes

Never

02AV6

What's needed is opposite - to make RL cam longer and equal to CL-S

02AV6

Ok, so now we know both '05-06 RL cams are identical as I suspected despite listed as different part #.

Theory:
Now, since front CL-S cam is just 3/16" longer than RL it may sound not much.
However, two CL-S 5AT TDC sensors (attached to a front cam plate) sticking out 3/8" toward the camshaft. So, with RL unit installed it might affect a clearance issue to the sensors because it might sit too close. This can also cause the cam gear/timing belt misalignment which has to be checked as well.

What does it mean? Well, the sensors might get hit with rotation upon firing up the car and it's a no, no.


Practice:
I have asked my mechanic to do a test fitment to be 100% certain if this swap requires a lot of changes to make the front cam work. This is going to be a last attempt and I'll post the results asap.

av6ent

Holy shit, so '05/06 are the same, why da hell Honda made different part #
Good luck with fitment, maybe everything works out.

typeR

just a guess but could be '05 made in japan '06 in america?

Allout

I bet you're right.

ThinJim

iTrader: (3)

Serge and everyone-

My apologies for sharing inaccurate information. That was not my intent. I too am a victim as the shop where my motor was at said they would work and were a direct fit. I wasn't told that they were shorter. Maybe he had some other idea as to using different sensors with a stand alone. If I had known there was a difference in length, I would have said so. I'm not done with it yet as I think there is the possibility that it may work.

jgscott

Sorry for asking such a dumb question but.... is it goiing to work ? Or it going to require a Modification ?

Bobbydoedoe

although many of us wants to see the outcome, but lol i don't think its a good idea to blow the engine cause the cams are off different length

ResidualFreedom

what about a custom cam? I don't see a company picking up the design for a marketable product (this point was from eairlier in this thread), however with the knoledge here, I'm sure we could choose our best cam design, then get a shop to make ten or twenty of them..

This article discusses a company that makes custom cam shafts..... http://www.circletrack.com/techartic...2_cams_custom/


the company that they talk about is Jones Racing, I'm not sure what their website is, there is a www.jonesracing.com but I'm not sure if that is the specific company.

02AV6

Tom, since you're not a mechanic I don't blame you, however I wish he would tell you the real difference in the first place. My guy called me up and said "what is this BS with those cams, they are short and don't look as direct fit. Did someone tried to install them?". I said yes, and he replied "if any mechanic claimed the succesfull install is either a biggest NOOB or careless idiot". He said that before actual test fitment by simply placing CL-S and RL cams next to each other. We (shop and I) spent quite a bit of time on it including a FINAL test fitment and I'll post visual results soon.

Well, consider I've got another valve adjustment and new plug installation . And I hope people here appreciate my time, my money and attached pics.

implicit

Hey man...I just want to say for myself that its very appreciated. And I'm sure a lot of us here were hoping these were going to fit. Props for being brave enough to try it and props for providing all of the valuable info.

Louie11

^^^^^^
DITTO x 10'000

CL Platano

yeah man it is much appreciated.

All Mine

It is greatly apreciated. Thanks for all your hard work and hard money to get this stuff figured out. You're the man. If we had rep points, I'd rep you.

02AV6

FINAL VERDICT

Unfortunately, not going to work (at least on 5AT) and here is why.

Front RL cam installed into CL-S cyl. head


And here is a front plate with attached TDC sensors and RL camshaft without front cam gear


Another angle with TDC sensors and RL camshaft before cam gear installed.


Finally here is a cam gear installed. See how camshaft not lined up with cam gear by being simply short? And unfortunately there is nothing we can do to make it even you don't want to run it like that since timing belt will be off along with important clearance to TDC sensors.



And to confuse you even more, when I said above "not going to work (at least on 5AT)" Honda list the different part # for CL-S 6MT and 5AT for the following parts: Front CYL. HEADS/ CAM GEAR/ PLATE along with different TDC sensors.
Doubt if there is a true difference except TDC sensors since and I suspect it was made to distinguish 6MT from 5AT parts.

Tom, if you still have them installed on the other head. Check if FRONT camshaft lined up with a FRONT cam gear (see the above pic) that way we'll know a true difference between 6MT.

Louie11

Great work as usual!!!! You really have Benson and the boys working over time aren't you.

ResidualFreedom

What about a custom made cam? we have all the specs for it, and we could get it made to exact legnth It is possible... and we could get a group rate from someone that makes custom cams..

Any ideas?

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

thank you for the leg work. hopefully we can return our cams. but before i do, i just want to throw this out there, and maybe someone has a logical answer...

when i look up the part #s for a 2001 CL Type S 5AT - i get 4 part #s for the cams, but if i look up a 2003 CL Type S 5AT - i get only 2 part #s. why are there 4 listed for the 01s?

while we're at it, will the 05 RL head bolt up to a j32a2 block? we all know the head and cams produce more power, the only issue i see is changing the exhaust. e-shifts 'headers' should work. thanks to typeR for inspirations. maybe someone can look into this.

typeR

might the RL's cam gear have this issue resolved?

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

i was thinking that, and started look at the cam gear part #s, the gears are only about $10 a piece, worth it to see. but you can see from o2av6's pictures that the sensors clearly come really close, the RL cam gear would need to be very deep inside so the sensors can rest inside. but i haven't seen the RL head that close, so i don't know the position of the sensor.

typeR

could have an offset to it?

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

i'll order them tomorrow, and ill ask 02av6 to measure out the CL-S ones if he can.

02AV6

To make custom cams it would cost at least $1000 if not more. Is it worth it?
And to lower the price, I'm sure the demand should exceed 25 sets or so. But most important, nobody going to purchase even a single set unless someone tries it first and presents before/after SAE Dyno



The other 2 cams listed for regular CL but '01 combine all 4 cams for some reason. If you look under '02 CL, there are just two


Starting from 3rd gen. J-series like J30A4 (new AV6), J35A5 (new MDX) to J35A8 (RL) each block has a different oil return along with changes made under their head design vs. J30A1/J32A1/J32A2. It will bolt up, but doubt if it work.


Even if cam gear lines up, I would concern about CL-S sensors clearance along with timing belt alignment as it would sit closer to the plate. And RL has a single sensor which positioned differently as I heard. Anyway, doesn't hurt to check since cam gear is inexpensive.