Remote mounted Turbo System
12-03-2004, 11:56 AM
#1
563hp daily
Thread Starter
Remote mounted Turbo System
STS (Squires Turbo Systems) SEMA 2004 GM Design Award is currently developing the turbo applications for Civic/Integra and next on the list are AV6 and might be CLS. The turbo applications were available only to domestics before incl. new GTO.
Remote mount benefits:
Pics - Acura ITR prototype:
How it works - DEMO (flash enabled).
Opinions?
Remote mount benefits:
- Produce full boost below 3000 rpm.
- Ease of installation. STS turbo systems can be installed in 4-6 hours with standard tools and average mechanical ability.
- No need for major modifications to your vehicle. STS systems are designed to bolt on using factory mounts without cutting or modifying your vehicle.
- Increased gas mileage. Unlike a belt driven supercharger, the turbo utilizes "wasted" energy leaving your tailpipe. Most of our customers get 2-4 mpg increase in gas mileage.
- Lower underhood temperatures. No need to worry about melting wires, hoses, or other components.
- Easily converts back to stock in less than an hour.
- More room under the hood. Future repair work or modifications will not require the expense of removing the turbo system to allow access to any of the engine components.
-Cooler oil to the turbo. Cool oil is better for both the turbo and engine.
-Approximately 500F lower turbo temperatures. Eliminates the need for a turbo-timer, which allows the engine to run after the car is shut off in order to cool down the turbo and prevent oil and bearing damage.
-Denser exhaust gasses drive the turbo turbine wheel more efficiently.
-Built-in intercooling. Intake piping provides ~50% intercooler efficiency. There is no need for the expense, pressure drop, and installation problems associated with a front mounted intercooler.
-Turbo is exposed to ambient air rather than underhood air. Allows for better cooling of turbo components.
-Turbo is closer to the tail pipe outlet. Provides a better pressure differential across the turbine wheel which promotes better flow across turbine.
-Better weight transfer. Increases traction because the bulk of system is mounted in rear of vehicle rather than up front.
-Less noise in the passenger compartment.
-Quieter wastegates, especially if vented to atmosphere.
-Better engine cooling capacity.
- Ease of installation. STS turbo systems can be installed in 4-6 hours with standard tools and average mechanical ability.
- No need for major modifications to your vehicle. STS systems are designed to bolt on using factory mounts without cutting or modifying your vehicle.
- Increased gas mileage. Unlike a belt driven supercharger, the turbo utilizes "wasted" energy leaving your tailpipe. Most of our customers get 2-4 mpg increase in gas mileage.
- Lower underhood temperatures. No need to worry about melting wires, hoses, or other components.
- Easily converts back to stock in less than an hour.
- More room under the hood. Future repair work or modifications will not require the expense of removing the turbo system to allow access to any of the engine components.
-Cooler oil to the turbo. Cool oil is better for both the turbo and engine.
-Approximately 500F lower turbo temperatures. Eliminates the need for a turbo-timer, which allows the engine to run after the car is shut off in order to cool down the turbo and prevent oil and bearing damage.
-Denser exhaust gasses drive the turbo turbine wheel more efficiently.
-Built-in intercooling. Intake piping provides ~50% intercooler efficiency. There is no need for the expense, pressure drop, and installation problems associated with a front mounted intercooler.
-Turbo is exposed to ambient air rather than underhood air. Allows for better cooling of turbo components.
-Turbo is closer to the tail pipe outlet. Provides a better pressure differential across the turbine wheel which promotes better flow across turbine.
-Better weight transfer. Increases traction because the bulk of system is mounted in rear of vehicle rather than up front.
-Less noise in the passenger compartment.
-Quieter wastegates, especially if vented to atmosphere.
-Better engine cooling capacity.
Pics - Acura ITR prototype:
How it works - DEMO (flash enabled).
Opinions?
12-03-2004, 12:08 PM
#3
Photography Nerd
:wtf:
Two problems I see with that setup:
1) that air filter is going to be impossible to keep clean
2) Can you say turbo lag? Look how much plumbing is required to get the boost back to the engine.
Interesting idea, but not my cup of tea.
Two problems I see with that setup:
1) that air filter is going to be impossible to keep clean
2) Can you say turbo lag? Look how much plumbing is required to get the boost back to the engine.
Interesting idea, but not my cup of tea.
12-03-2004, 12:10 PM
#4
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Originally Posted by Dan Martin
:wtf:
Two problems I see with that setup:
1) that air filter is going to be impossible to keep clean
2) Can you say turbo lag? Look how much plumbing is required to get the boost back to the engine.
Interesting idea, but not my cup of tea.
Two problems I see with that setup:
1) that air filter is going to be impossible to keep clean
2) Can you say turbo lag? Look how much plumbing is required to get the boost back to the engine.
Interesting idea, but not my cup of tea.
12-03-2004, 12:15 PM
#6
Moderator Alumnus
I posted this setup a year ago 
a bunch of guys have it on their camaros. Seems to work good.
I'm sure the spooling time is more, but question is how much more? everyone is guessing at the results on here. I doubt it would be noticable on our cars, and really the extra lag would help you launch on street tires as the CLS already has traction problems /w H/I/P.
a bunch of guys have it on their camaros. Seems to work good.I'm sure the spooling time is more, but question is how much more? everyone is guessing at the results on here. I doubt it would be noticable on our cars, and really the extra lag would help you launch on street tires as the CLS already has traction problems /w H/I/P.
12-03-2004, 12:24 PM
#7
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The FAQ over there answer plenty of questions.
With the turbo so far back, don't you get a lot of turbo lag?
No, our turbochargers are sized to operate at this remote location. Just like any turbocharger, once the turbo is up to temperature and in the rpm range for which it was designed to operate. The boost comes on hard and fast. All of our systems will produce full boost below 3000 rpm.
If you were to take a conventional turbo and place it at the rear, you would have lots of lag and consequently, our turbo wouldn't work properly if mounted up front.
Doesn't water get into your engine with the filter mounted down low?
No, even under very wet conditions the filter sheds most all water. Every kit includes a K&N PreCharger which is a "sock" that protects the filter under very dusty or wet conditions. The only thing you don't want to do is completely submerge the filter. This would draw water through the filter and into the intake tubing. For most vehicles that would mean you would have water coming in your doors before you'd have a problem with the turbo's air filter.
As far as power it damn looks good on LS1 despite better accepting mods.
With the turbo so far back, don't you get a lot of turbo lag?
No, our turbochargers are sized to operate at this remote location. Just like any turbocharger, once the turbo is up to temperature and in the rpm range for which it was designed to operate. The boost comes on hard and fast. All of our systems will produce full boost below 3000 rpm.
If you were to take a conventional turbo and place it at the rear, you would have lots of lag and consequently, our turbo wouldn't work properly if mounted up front.
Doesn't water get into your engine with the filter mounted down low?
No, even under very wet conditions the filter sheds most all water. Every kit includes a K&N PreCharger which is a "sock" that protects the filter under very dusty or wet conditions. The only thing you don't want to do is completely submerge the filter. This would draw water through the filter and into the intake tubing. For most vehicles that would mean you would have water coming in your doors before you'd have a problem with the turbo's air filter.
As far as power it damn looks good on LS1 despite better accepting mods.
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12-03-2004, 01:29 PM
#9
MR O'NEAL
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Originally Posted by av6ent
Doesn't water get into your engine with the filter mounted down low?
No, even under very wet conditions the filter sheds most all water. Every kit includes a K&N PreCharger which is a "sock" that protects the filter under very dusty or wet conditions. The only thing you don't want to do is completely submerge the filter. This would draw water through the filter and into the intake tubing. For most vehicles that would mean you would have water coming in your doors before you'd have a problem with the turbo's air filter.
No, even under very wet conditions the filter sheds most all water. Every kit includes a K&N PreCharger which is a "sock" that protects the filter under very dusty or wet conditions. The only thing you don't want to do is completely submerge the filter. This would draw water through the filter and into the intake tubing. For most vehicles that would mean you would have water coming in your doors before you'd have a problem with the turbo's air filter.
-- with a CAI it doesnt really have to be "submerged" which makes it sound like you have to drive your car into a lake...-- i've been in cars(and next to cars) with people who had CAI, and it was raining pretty heavily... on the road, it was okay-- driving fine...we jump on the highway... i see my friend start lagggggginggg behind really far... b/c he was on the highway-- lots of water bouncing up under the car-- he was just a vacuum sucking up all the water--- with an intake positioned there.. it seems to me that the effect would be greater-- possibly more instances where there the engine would suck in water.
12-03-2004, 02:28 PM
#11
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Originally Posted by NiteQwill
I want to see HP/TQ numbers.
I'm sure they can invent a way to mount the filter in a different position for daily driving.
I'm sure they can invent a way to mount the filter in a different position for daily driving.
Honda/Acura dyno are not available since its in development.
Here is LS1 dyno - very impressive
12-03-2004, 02:44 PM
#12
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Originally Posted by cor
see this is what i call -- with a CAI it doesnt really have to be "submerged" which makes it sound like you have to drive your car into a lake...-- i've been in cars(and next to cars) with people who had CAI, and it was raining pretty heavily... on the road, it was okay-- driving fine...we jump on the highway... i see my friend start lagggggginggg behind really far... b/c he was on the highway-- lots of water bouncing up under the car-- he was just a vacuum sucking up all the water--- with an intake positioned there.. it seems to me that the effect would be greater-- possibly more instances where there the engine would suck in water.
-- with a CAI it doesnt really have to be "submerged" which makes it sound like you have to drive your car into a lake...-- i've been in cars(and next to cars) with people who had CAI, and it was raining pretty heavily... on the road, it was okay-- driving fine...we jump on the highway... i see my friend start lagggggginggg behind really far... b/c he was on the highway-- lots of water bouncing up under the car-- he was just a vacuum sucking up all the water--- with an intake positioned there.. it seems to me that the effect would be greater-- possibly more instances where there the engine would suck in water.Based on LS1/LT1 market the response is great.
Otherwise domestic guys would raise the BS flag first.
Patrick McCarthy, instructor at ESPN's Russel Racing School
(Patrick is a professional driver that drove the vehicles at the 2004 SEMA Proving Grounds)
"These turbo systems spooled quicker than any other turbo I've ever driven. The power comes on smooth and is very controllable, giving a great throttle response."
(Patrick is a professional driver that drove the vehicles at the 2004 SEMA Proving Grounds)
"These turbo systems spooled quicker than any other turbo I've ever driven. The power comes on smooth and is very controllable, giving a great throttle response."
ITR launch
GTO launch
Here is the nice Turbo magazine article - PDF
12-03-2004, 03:33 PM
#15
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Originally Posted by legendaryCL98
what if u have the turbo on the rear.. and another conventional turbo...
wouldnt that make your car.. twin turbo?
wouldnt that make your car.. twin turbo?
12-03-2004, 03:51 PM
#16
Senior Moderator
moving to 2nd gen
12-03-2004, 04:14 PM
#19
563hp daily
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by mattg
moving to 2nd gen
Couple more videos (LS1): save as
Camaro Idle/Rev
Camaro Acceleration
12-03-2004, 04:18 PM
#20
563hp daily
Thread Starter
BTW, just found out v6p signed partnership with STS to develop turbo for AV6 first and if there is an interest for CLS/TLS. Despite the fact I also concerned regarding the filter location underneath the car espicially dropped car , I'm still curious once they do it on AV6 to see the results
, I'm still curious once they do it on AV6 to see the results
12-03-2004, 05:44 PM
#22
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Originally Posted by Chemmech
Hmmm... S/C + Turbo??? Might have to add some sort of check valve though.
Yeah and lower compression pistons. That's ALOT of boost.
EDIT. I don't know how that would work. You'd have air coming in through the turbo air inlet, being compressed, then going to the S/C and being compressed again?
Don't see how it would work. But i'm pretty much a 
12-03-2004, 05:44 PM
#23
563hp daily
Thread Starter
They mean 4-6 hours by first time installers with average mechanical ability meaning NOOBS with no special tools.
Now here you have to be PROFESSIONAL
with no special tools.
The system can also be removed in about an hour and virtually leaves no trace that it was ever installed
12-03-2004, 06:04 PM
#24
Adventurist.
Originally Posted by mrsteve
Yeah and lower compression pistons. That's ALOT of boost.
EDIT. I don't know how that would work. You'd have air coming in through the turbo air inlet, being compressed, then going to the S/C and being compressed again? Don't see how it would work. But i'm pretty much a
EDIT. I don't know how that would work. You'd have air coming in through the turbo air inlet, being compressed, then going to the S/C and being compressed again?
Don't see how it would work. But i'm pretty much a Let me find some links...
12-04-2004, 12:06 AM
#29
Adventurist.
Originally Posted by mrsteve
Vortech S/C is basically a belt driven turbo though. Nothing like the setup on the CL-S.
http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/frame...php&carnum=249
A few VW VR6's are running around with the same setup, making 10 second daily driven cars.
12-04-2004, 07:37 AM
#30
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The CL-S supercharger makes peak boost at high-rpms though. I'm sure it COULD work on our cars. But internal engine work would be needed to allow for the increase in boost. It would be easier to modify the MP90 blower to work with the Comptech kit and still run around 15 psi.
12-04-2004, 07:44 AM
#31
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by cor
see this is what i call -- with a CAI it doesnt really have to be "submerged" which makes it sound like you have to drive your car into a lake...-- i've been in cars(and next to cars) with people who had CAI, and it was raining pretty heavily... on the road, it was okay-- driving fine...we jump on the highway... i see my friend start lagggggginggg behind really far... b/c he was on the highway-- lots of water bouncing up under the car-- he was just a vacuum sucking up all the water--- with an intake positioned there.. it seems to me that the effect would be greater-- possibly more instances where there the engine would suck in water.
-- with a CAI it doesnt really have to be "submerged" which makes it sound like you have to drive your car into a lake...-- i've been in cars(and next to cars) with people who had CAI, and it was raining pretty heavily... on the road, it was okay-- driving fine...we jump on the highway... i see my friend start lagggggginggg behind really far... b/c he was on the highway-- lots of water bouncing up under the car-- he was just a vacuum sucking up all the water--- with an intake positioned there.. it seems to me that the effect would be greater-- possibly more instances where there the engine would suck in water.
12-04-2004, 08:19 AM
#32
GEEZER
Originally Posted by Dan Martin
:wtf:
Two problems I see with that setup:
1) that air filter is going to be impossible to keep clean
2) Can you say turbo lag? Look how much plumbing is required to get the boost back to the engine.
Interesting idea, but not my cup of tea.
Two problems I see with that setup:
1) that air filter is going to be impossible to keep clean
2) Can you say turbo lag? Look how much plumbing is required to get the boost back to the engine.
Interesting idea, but not my cup of tea.
on the lag...jeebus!
12-04-2004, 12:21 PM
#33
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There is a video and they do mention how they worked out the lag issue
there's a poll to guage intersest, I voted just to see one of these made...
http://www.v6performance.net/forums/...ad.php?t=44786
there's a poll to guage intersest, I voted just to see one of these made...
http://www.v6performance.net/forums/...ad.php?t=44786
12-04-2004, 06:16 PM
#36
Safety Car
It can be done, but you have to run a LOOOONG pipe all the way from the trunk area to the intake up front! Plus exhaust gas pressure drops significantly by the time it gets back there - it will work, but its not the most efficient.
Also, I have no idea how to do the oil-return when the turbo is so low... you might need a scavenger pump to get the oil out - also imagine running an oil-line all the way back there and back to the oil-pan?!? Not to mention the vacuum lines going all the way back there - what happens if a rock hits the wastegate pressure line... KABOOM!!
Also, I have no idea how to do the oil-return when the turbo is so low... you might need a scavenger pump to get the oil out - also imagine running an oil-line all the way back there and back to the oil-pan?!? Not to mention the vacuum lines going all the way back there - what happens if a rock hits the wastegate pressure line... KABOOM!!
12-04-2004, 09:04 PM
#37
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this is a complete joke .. what size turbo is small enough not to have any lag on our cars if you placed it there ... i can imagine the typical gt30 or t04 going onto our cars as aregular position ... so i mean how small are you talking.
The only thing i can imagine that would spool up by the time a to4 would in the normal position would be a ko3 sport from a jetta/audi a4. Other then that anything bigger will jsut take to long to spool and gains will be minimal and wont be distributed smoothly along the hp/tq curve, it will just spike and jump around.
I in no way see how this would be efficient or more practical then a regular turbo setup.
I'd rather spend the few extra dollars and get everything done right then havea turbo on the back of my exhaust
What happens when you hit a speed bump? Or if theres a mattress that flies out at you on the highway? What happens is you just wasted all the money on that kit, Im sorry but I really see no use in this.
Props on the idea though
The only thing i can imagine that would spool up by the time a to4 would in the normal position would be a ko3 sport from a jetta/audi a4. Other then that anything bigger will jsut take to long to spool and gains will be minimal and wont be distributed smoothly along the hp/tq curve, it will just spike and jump around.
I in no way see how this would be efficient or more practical then a regular turbo setup.
I'd rather spend the few extra dollars and get everything done right then havea turbo on the back of my exhaust
What happens when you hit a speed bump? Or if theres a mattress that flies out at you on the highway? What happens is you just wasted all the money on that kit, Im sorry but I really see no use in this.
Props on the idea though
12-04-2004, 09:06 PM
#38
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nyqwill ... i havent seen anyone running a turbo and sc on a vr6 ... unless im behind my times, I know of noone running it (im extremely activ e on vwvortex and woulda heard about that)
but yea ..
but yea ..
12-05-2004, 05:22 AM
#39
Adventurist.
Originally Posted by Hurleysurf24
nyqwill ... i havent seen anyone running a turbo and sc on a vr6 ... unless im behind my times, I know of noone running it (im extremely activ e on vwvortex and woulda heard about that)
but yea ..
but yea ..
I've seen everything from the creation of VentoDan's Turbo VR6 to the 98 Audi 1.8T drop into a Golf II to the stealth 2.8 VR6 vortech S/C + K series turbo in a MKIII chassis. Try a search, I know it's around in the archived sections. 
12-05-2004, 09:14 AM
#40
Moderator Alumnus
Lots of haters/guessing peeps in this thread. That kit is excellent, there's caveats to every mod you make to a car... for you guessers. Whats the flow rate f12" from the exhaust outlet vs. the flow rate 4' away? how many CFM's? whats the air density?
What the time in ms difference between the exhaust gas flow at 12" vs. 4'? whats the pressure differential?
colder air is more dense than hot air. So would less flow neccessarily cause the turbo to spool slower?
whole lot of speculation, and not lot a of scientific facts to back the "lag" ideas... just ranting...
I've personally seen a camaro with that system installed. it is in no way a slouch. Or is the turbo spool time even an issue.
I wouldn't buy it. but im also of the opinion of high HP FWD cars are stupid. but that's just my .02.
Put this kit on a old 240, emmm.....
I have never heard a big single turbo supra guy complaing about lag. And thats were lag comes from. Oversized turbos and not enough exhaust gas flow to match. If a properly sized turbo it placed at the rear it'll work excellent. And there wont be any of this "lag" people think will happen. The time it takes the exhaust to go from the downpipe to the muffler would be measued in MS (miliseconds)
if you add all of the return pipe length together i bet it would come close to matching a stock dual intercooler pipe in length. So really the return pipe is a moot point. Now they need to put radiator fins on it so it disperses the heat more.
What the time in ms difference between the exhaust gas flow at 12" vs. 4'? whats the pressure differential?
colder air is more dense than hot air. So would less flow neccessarily cause the turbo to spool slower?
whole lot of speculation, and not lot a of scientific facts to back the "lag" ideas... just ranting...
I've personally seen a camaro with that system installed. it is in no way a slouch. Or is the turbo spool time even an issue.
I wouldn't buy it. but im also of the opinion of high HP FWD cars are stupid. but that's just my .02.
Put this kit on a old 240, emmm.....
I have never heard a big single turbo supra guy complaing about lag. And thats were lag comes from. Oversized turbos and not enough exhaust gas flow to match. If a properly sized turbo it placed at the rear it'll work excellent. And there wont be any of this "lag" people think will happen. The time it takes the exhaust to go from the downpipe to the muffler would be measued in MS (miliseconds)
if you add all of the return pipe length together i bet it would come close to matching a stock dual intercooler pipe in length. So really the return pipe is a moot point. Now they need to put radiator fins on it so it disperses the heat more.