Based on the outcome of most web-board interactions I will only maintain contact and answer further questions if the threads remain calm and respectful. We are the experts on our products and their interaction with the late model import vehicles. Here say and theoretical conjecture has no basis in these threads.
See it goes like this: We have been on the market since May of 1997, over 5 years now. We also began doing research for our pulleys two years prior to coming onto the market. Since May of 1997 our customers have accumulated over 700+ million miles using our pulleys and they only have great things to say about them. Many owners have had the pulleys on their cars for 100,000+ miles, from when the car was new. We have worked with many racers from Speedvision to Drag Racing to Pikes Peak to Rallying. These teams from Craig Paisley to Rhys Millen have used our products and have only had great things to say about them. We have yet to have a claim presented to us for engine damage or any serious problem whatsoever. See a damper will only help to prevent the crankshaft from cranking it does not have any effect on bearing wear. If you’ve got bearing wear it is an oil control issue.
The most mis-information seems to come out of the Mitsubishi camp. The first case of propaganda was started by Bushur Racing, now don't get me wrong Dave is a great guy, when he made comments about how his bearings looked a little worn after he tore down his motor after using our pulley. The fact is he was a good salesman/marketer because all he was trying to do was develop a little fear in the market so he could sell the damper he had made for his product line. As for the 3rd gen Eclipse it is having problems stock, the sister car from Chrysler, which uses the same motor but a different computer does not have any problems. The problems are based on some sort of computer glitch. Subaru had a similar problem on the WRX but they have solved it by doing a re-programming of the ECU for production and at the dealer. Mitsubishi still has yet to solve the engine light problem for stock vehicles let alone ones with aftermarket parts. The other fact is that many owners are still buying the pulley we make for the 3000GT, it is a perfect match for the 3rd Gen Eclipse and we don't have any call backs. This is because the problem was not ours to begin with. Its amazing that after hundreds of different pulley variations and combinations that we were blamed right away for problems that were actually inherent to the 3rd gen Eclipse platform. The funniest part is the fact that Matt Monet of Dynamic Racing has the fastest 3000GT in the country and he has been using our crank pulley for years. The 3000GT motor is the DOHC cousin to the SOHC 3rd gen Eclipse motor. If the SOHC 3rd gen motor was a bored out 2.5L Chrysler motor, as claimed by the so called experts, it would use the Chrysler style crank pulley but it does not it uses the Mitsubishi identical to the 3000GT except for the location of the timing marks. Mitsubishi has used Chrysler motors before like the 1995-99 Eclipse 2.0L non-turbo but they used a Chrysler style crank pulley. The last case is a claim by a Prelude owner that had worn looking bearings upon disassembly, the fact is that he was using an unbalanced, cast but not billet aluminum, copy cat of our pulley. Notice how we never had a warranty claim from this individual?
The biggest issue we have with the so-called experts is with the improper use of terminology. Our favorite word is “harmonic balancer,” it does not exist. They are two terms melded together for no good technical reason. The balancer part of the term, which is the only real term, refers to domestic V8 engines that use a counterweight to balance the rotational assembly. You can dampen a crank/rotational assembly but harmonically balancing is not possible on the production scale for aftermarket parts because the damper would have to produce the opposite frequency at the same amplitude to eliminate the harmonics produced by the engine. Not for under a few million dollars. In addition dampers do dampen engine vibrations but can never fully control them or dampen all of the frequency or vibration, so dampers are only a long-term band-aid in reality. Ever notice why NHRA drag racers from Pro-Stock to Funny Car to Top Fuel don't use a dampers. This also includes CART and Formula One engines and they run for hundreds of miles at 10,000+ RPM for hours. The torsional damper issue is attached to the domestic V8 engines, which have all types of balance, design and material quality issues, although these are finally slowly being weeded out and fixed. The import engines we work with are all extremely well designed, use the highest quality materials and are balanced much better than their domestic counterparts, sometimes even 0 gram balanced. The facts are that in stock trim up to 4-5 times stock HP output, depending on the application, a damper is not necessary.
We are in the final steps of offering damper style crank pulleys for domestic V8 engines. We will also be offering this damper technology for race imports, racers making over 4-5+ times stock HP output, depending on the application, or engines spending lots of time over 9,000+ RPM. Our damper is the first truly adaptive damping system that increases and decreases damping ability based on engine damping needs and they can be further tuned for specific engines, power outputs and rpm bands. Otherwise these sport compact engines, or any engine we make an undampened crank pulley for under 4-5 times stock HP output does not need a damper. The stock damper is an audible harmonic damper, designed to quiet accessory and engine noise, known in the industry as NVH (Noise Vibration and Harshness), herd in the occupant compartment of the vehicle. The easiest correlation for everybody to understand is to look at the intake systems on late model cars with all the baffles and resonators. What is the first thing owners do to hop up their cars, it is to put a high flow intake pipe of kit, which dramatically increases audible harmonics like throttle noise, etc.
Also there is one last interesting fact for all the experts out there. We have samples of solid crank pulleys for almost every engine we make a pulley for. This will shock some experts but it is true, one of these days we will post pictures of all the solid pulleys. The Accord/Acura 3.0/3.2L V6 is one of them. Just to name a few: Nissan Altima 2.4L (that is really scary for those experts since that motor uses a timing chain and is based off the KA24 supposedly the most harmonically challenged motor, we have had pulleys on all the KA24's for 4 years now), the 1986-89 Acura Integra the 1998-2001 Type R, 1984-1995 Honda Civic, 1980-1988 Ford 2.3L, 1985-1991 VW 1.8L SOHC 8V and the list goes on. We have also seen most recently seen the use of solid crank pulleys on BMW race V8 motors. This again proving that the factory uses the dampened pulley for the street to quiet engine noise herd in the car but when it comes to performance they eliminate the damper.

If there were a problem with our products we would have been out of business 5 years ago. So enjoy the pulleys and relax!
Last but not least the dyno of the CL Type S w/6spd will be posted tomorrow. The numbers are great, lots of torque especially on the bottom and good strong HP that grows through the entire powerband.

Respectfully,
Shawn Baumgartner
President
Unorthodox Racing Inc.

 

hmmmm.....

the plot thickens....

thanks for the reply, though!!!

 

Thanks for the info

Now when are we going to get the missing pulley ? and will it improve by much ?

Thanks again

 

Thanks for your reply Shawn. My ASE Certified, Honda-Certified mechanic never installs anything onto my car if its going to hurt it. Thats why they have these types of certifications.

Since the stock damper is made to quiet accessories, is that why my car makes kind of a whirring noise when I accelerate now? This is on a 2000 V6 Accord.

 

You may notice a slight increase in accessory noise, sometimes its from the new belts, they need to stretch and soften up a bit. The altenator issue is not completely resolved.
Its seems that the 2000-02 Acura Cl and TL (does not matter whether Type s unless it is a 6spd) use the same altenator. We got the Type S measurement off the 6spd car but the 6 spd car uses a Delco alternator and the automatic carss use a Denso. The Accord V6 uses a Delco but its is different from the Cl Type S 6spd. We have the Denso alternator coming in the next few days and should be able to compeltely resolve the problem upon getting it in our hands. Its is very possible that the Denso alternator uses the same style of pulley as either the one we made for the Accord V6 or the 6spd CL S or it may even be the same as on of the other 4 6 rib Denso alternator pulleys we make for other cars. Even if we have to make a third new alternator pulley it should take no more than 4 weeks to rush another emergency run. We sincerely apologize to all affected, we are doing our best to get the proper parts to you all!

Respectfully,
Shawn

 

let me make a couple statements as well....I've known all along there was some rubber type material in the stock crank pulley .and though i respect the incredible knowledge that ErikL brings however little of it i understand ...I refused to fuel the flames of conjecture on the issue...the fact is my engine feels SMOOTHER than ever and i cant find the words but some how free of a heavy burden especially down low....
last night at the track i managed a 9.4 with some wheel spin that i wasnt getting before and low 80* temps....i feel confident that these pulleys present no problem...each of you must decide on your own.....
now where's that 6mt dyno damn it
that'll quite the crowd....

 

the dyno for the 6speed tomorrow ........ill be waiting

 

thanks for posting shawn, it will be nice to see the dyno.

how 'bout you guys start working on the cam gear

 

how about UR-RES

 

seriuosly im thinking about trying to hook shawn and doug up

 

^

 

Shawn,
Thanks for sharing the info. We need ppl like you to stick around and keep us educated. There may be some members who just like flame just about anything so please disregard them. There are more ppl who'd like to have the words and support of an official.

 

The simple question a lot of us are asking, does UR do any testing to measure vibration differences b/w the stock crank pulley and UR's crank pulley?

If you can show through testing (maybe something similiar to what Fluidampr does) that vibrations at the crank are similiar or less than OEM crank pulley, I think many people here would be able to feel at ease.

 

Doooo it....NOW Don't walk....RUN :P

 

Shawn
I have a few questions. I guess since you make these pullies I can get definate answers....

1- Do have a complete set(power steering, alternater, & crank) working on a CL or TL Type S?
2- Do these pullies effect the ability to cool the car with the AC system? I need all of my AC working in hot South FL.
3- Do these puilles effect the power steering feel? Will I have to use more effort, or less effort when tuning?
4- Does the Crank pully effect the engine internals. I have read very long articals on this subject, & have read each side. both side make good points, but as yet I have no proof either way.
5- What are the long term effects of using the 3 puilles? Will I have to replaced my power steering pump, or alternator in 20K miles?
6- Will the pullies increase were on the engine?

These are my concerns with using pullies. I'm sure some of which are shared with others. Cars today have many more complex parts, & computer systems. Car makers make parts that go together on there cars, & work with each other. When the aftermarket messes with that, some cars respond different then others.

Thanks

 

I'm just going to make the assumption that you did not read my original post. The pulleys with or without damper have no effect on engine durability whatsoever for cars making under 4-5 times stock HP. Don't mean to sound rude but this is all stated in the original post. We have been doing durability testing for 7 years now and the most interesting part is the fact that each new successive generation of engines is able to handle more and more power without the need to a damper. Also please remember that dampers are only long-term band-aids because they cannot absorb all vibration and frequency. Also note that dampers only keep the crankshaft from cracking, they have nothing to do with bearing wear.

Respectfully,
Shawn

 

Does it make any difference if you have a the 2.3 4 cylinder engine and would they be effected the same way? Also, what kind of gains are there for the 2.3?

 

what time will the dyno be posted?

 

Gee Shawn why don't you spout off a few more lies while your at it?

MYTH: The 3.0L in Stratus R/T's and Sebrings do not get a check engine light with a UR pulley on
FACT: My good friend Forrest has a Stratus R/T that USED to be equipped with your pulley, his service engine light was tripped all the time while using your pulley.
MYTH: It's a platform problem
FACT: The pulley rubs the timing cover, causes erratic vibrations through the crank(it was datalogged to do so) tripping the knock sensor, therefore, it's a PULLEY problem.
MYTH: The 3K GT DOHC 3.0 and the Eclipse 3.0 SOHC are relativly the same.
FACT: The 6G72 in the Eclipse is more or less bored and stroked 2.5L Avenger engine
MYTH: UR takes care of it's customers
FACT: I was told I was getting a refund by there engineer, then Shawn said otherwise and I was DEINED. You still owe me 190 dollars, and until you pay, everytime you try and sell a pulley to a new group, I will be there to tell my story. Buyers beware, if it does something to your car, you WILL be left high and dry.

 

1- Do have a complete set(power steering, alternater, & crank) working on a CL or TL Type S?

Answer: We are only missing the alternator pulley which is already in production for the 6spd Type S and we are checking the sample for the other 2000-2002 CL/TL's (does not matter whether Tupe S or not for those years).

2- Do these pullies effect the ability to cool the car with the AC system? I need all of my AC working in hot South FL.

3- Do these puilles effect the power steering feel? Will I have to use more effort, or less effort when tuning?

4- Does the Crank pully effect the engine internals. I have read very long articals on this subject, & have read each side. both side make good points, but as yet I have no proof either way.

Answer: For questions 2 & 3 and also for 4, please rad the FAQ section on our web-site. www.unorthodoxracing.com
Also for question 4 there is plenty of proof that we are correct, we are still in business after 5 years, no claims of any kind against us. Also see previous posts in this thread.

5- What are the long term effects of using the 3 puilles? Will I have to replaced my power steering pump, or alternator in 20K miles?

Answer: More power and reduced stress on the engine and the accessories, this is also covered in our FAQ section.

6- Will the pullies increase were on the engine?

Answer: It is a resounding no on wear so please read the previous posts in this thread plus our FAQ section.

Respectfully,
Shawn

 

Shawn,

First of all, I would like to thank you for your time and effort posting on this board.

If I can summarize my understanding from your post and previous posts about Crank Pulleys:

1) Some cars come stock with crank pullye with Torsional Vibrations Damper (TVD), for example, Acura CL/TL/ and V6 Accord do have TVD. Some cars do not, like Nissan Maximas.

2) At one time, UR and yourself claimed that the TVD is just for cabin comfort only. I quote:3) At another time, you AGREED that Torsional Vibration Damper ARE designed to protect the internal of the engine, and you state such engines include the V8 domestic engines, but not compact sport import engines. I quote:
4) In addition, you are in fact doing R&D on Damper Style Crank pullyes for the V8 domestic engines and HP-output compact Import Engines. , I quote:
5) Finally, when asked about if the UR pulleyes will increase the wear on the engine, you said:" a resounding, no". I quote:
6) Then, a in 100% contradictory, you stated and I quote:

Now, I am totaly confused ...

A) Does or does Not the lack of TVD on your crank pulley destroys the crankshaft of the CLS engine?

B) If UR is producing a damper-style Ultra Weight Crank pulley, are you making one for the Acura CL-S? If so, Can I exchange the Ultra SS kit that I bought (never installed) for one of those revolutionary UR damper-style Ultra Weight Crank pulley? I am willing to send back the Ultra SS kit I have, wait for a resonable time for the new one, and pay any resonable difference in price.

Thanks again for your help. We are really glad having you on the board ansewring our questions.

 

NH im not trying to speak for shawn but his statement about the crank shaft from cranking i think he was saying it only serves to slow it down because of weight...a crank shaft is supposed to crank ....second i got the impression that his dampened style pulleys would only be available for HIGH HP applications....as in 600+ hp(just a guess as to HP number)

 

A) Does or does Not the lack of TVD on your crank pulley destroys the crankshaft of the CLS engine?

Answer: Please re-read the section of the thread I started that states that no car we make solid pulleys for has a TVD. So there will not be any problems from the use of our pulley/s.

B) If UR is producing a damper-style Ultra Weight Crank pulley, are you making one for the Acura CL-S? If so, Can I exchange the Ultra SS kit that I bought (never installed) for one of those revolutionary UR damper-style Ultra Weight Crank pulley? I am willing to send back the Ultra SS kit I have, wait for a resonable time for the new one, and pay any resonable difference in price.

Answer: Please re-read the section on the dampers that we will be making shorthly. The ones we will make for imports are for race engines only, engines making 4-5 times the stock HP output. They are designed to help eliminate the chance of crank failure on race cars or street/race domestic V8 engines.

Respectfully,
Shawn

 

Dyno ?

 

Thank you again!

I take your words as assurance that by installing UR Ultra SS Crank pulley no harm would be done to the Acura CL-S engine.

Now, I am looking forward for Today's post of the Dyno of the Ultra SS pulleys on the Acura CL-S 6-speeds.

Also, hopefully, the Altnerator pulley for the CL-S Auto would be out very soon

Good Luck!

 

I originally did some power gain studies (back of the envelope) and the potential gains looked impressive. The mod is rather appealing IF some questions and “issues” can be cleared up.


1. Can you provide some way to indicate how you arrive at your figures regarding customer miles driven (stats, etc). For example, you state that since May of 1997 our customers have accumulated over 700+ million miles using our pulley and they only have great things to say about them…” (Can you explain the unhappy minority??? )



a) Did you send out polls OR how did you arrive at this mileage (700+ million miles). If I just thought that 7,000 cars purchased the mod and each drove 100,000 miles or if 70,000 cars purchased the mod and each drove 10,000 miles, I get a "range" to get an idea of your customer base. It would be nice to know if you contact your customers and keep a record of how they are doing… Is that what your saying? Have you really sold 7000- to 70,000 pulleys in 5+ years? And all 7000- to 70,000 customers only have great things to say?


b) Well, I’m very tempted to get these being Mr. Low Inertia. However, I’m not sure you are aware of this, but Acura can be rather fussy about “mods.” I’m aware of the MM act, but can you site any instances where you have involved yourself with an owner that had problems? If you or your company did, did you endeavor to supply tech info, etc to the assist the owner if there were any “fuzzy” issues regarding bearings, oil-pumps, etc – in other words, when people have had problems, have you “gone to bat” for them?

c) I ran into a number of less-than-pleased individuals. Normally, there is always going to be some amount of “Murphy’s” law in effect. What I’m concerned about is the Stealth bearing wear (did you look at the link I posted – I would figure it would be old news by now). Is there something that you can say about people who see bearing wear that is much more pronounced in the front of the car (near pulley) rather than near the flywheel?

d) Could you mention or site any owners that would be willing to have their names used to “verify” that they have 100K miles WITH the pulleys in service. That sure would go along way to help dispel some worries? Actually, if there were some of these people that had TVDs on the car and replaced them with your non-damped pulleys, could we hear from them or could you at least see if this is possible? And if so, could you provide the details?

e) Ok, there are “some” unhappy folks over on the Eclipse forum. Some of them just want their money back (or so it seems). If there is a warranty, could you explain why they weren’t just given a refund for what appears to be a least a number of pulleys that didn’t work out (I’ll leave the finger pointing to others). The reason I ask, if I bought a set (or others did so here) and found that a vibration test setup (ala fluidampr) discovered “more” vibrations, would you provide a full refund?


You mentioned two teams – are these pulleys for these cars used exclusively for racing? Do these particular cars come with TVDs (of any variety) and are replaced with non-TVD pulleys (yours)?

What about the “fitment” problem where people had to machine the part to fit? Can you explain that?

What about the pulley for the CLS/TLS/CL/TL – you mentioned that you have the cranks (or something to that effect). Does this mean that you don’t necessarily check a particular model for production (Accord alt pulley vs. TL/CL/TLS/CLS)?


When you say that 3rd gen Eclipse guys are buying the pulley still – can you name or get a person who had put some serious miles on the car to come forward for a “warm and fuzzy”?

Did you change the design of the pulley – re: the pictures where folks machined them to fit theirs – please to explain this? (See posting below this of person who machined pulley)


You mention that the crank can “crack”, but this cannot have anything to do with bearing wear… I have some literature that seems to dispute this and states that torsional vibrations can and do hurt bearings. If a crankshaft is twisting, there is a presumption (tell me if I’m wrong) on your part that the torsional strain only manifests itself in the torsional arena, and the torsion, cannot cause a twist at the counterweights, which would cause additional bearing load during various episodes. To use a counter argument, what about “out-of-balance couples” that manifest torsional stresses when constrained to a set of bearings. Isn’t there a presumption of a uniform shaft being used here and that this model is over simplified?

I you have the supporting literature, I would enjoy seeing it.


Getting back to the 3000GT and other issues. Can you explain why other companies would want to go to the trouble of creating a viscous damper, if they are not targeting some 5x HP race versions? You are pretty clear in indicating that this other person (the one with the bearings that are more worn in the front, is working using “scare” tactics?) Can you produce any information that would truly support this conjecture? If you are going to produce a damper version for race 4-5X HP version, when are you going to be making these? If you are, what sort of instrumentation are you going to use to determine if the damper is working – would you mind explaining this (For example, I would presume that you would need to instrument the engines with a dyno and suitable gear [strain gauges – in case 1] and [vibration detector to check jitter on the crank – in case 2]… Comments, please?

Example question: let’s say you don’t provide enough answers for my satisfaction (hey, maybe yes, maybe no, but just for me – ok [hypothetical time now], and I decide to make or have someone get an alternate pulley going? Would your first assumption be that I’m trying to “bash” your company and scare the folks here? I really would like to figure out a way that leaves a clear statement of resolve to stand behind your existing pulley. It makes great power; is there absolutely no drawback?

Can you say, “hey, you might see a tad more wear at 40K miles, but it would be minor or if you really push it, you might find 1 problem in 10,000? I know it is dreaded “thing” to admit that any product would cause some “harm” to an engine, but it would figure, just from a statistics standpoint, that there are going to be at least a few percent of cars failing just from their own internal problems. To be clear, are you saying that any car with the pulleys had never had a failure in the engine? Or if there has been an instance, can you site how you completely resolved and determined that nothing was the result of some “minor” detail that could not have been foreseen? The point I’m trying to arrive at is – the machines may make rather perfect copies of what designers “intend”. But, IMO, it seems that Murphy’s Law is going to bite sooner or later and it’s what people do when it does, that makes for some serious partnering. Can you site two or three examples of “Honda”/”Nissan”/ or other owners who you’ve gone to bat for????? OR do you say that out of every pulley you’ve sold, that no person has ever pointed an engine problem?

I sure would like to know more about this issue…

So, you are saying he used a “fake pulley” and NEVER contacted you. Could you confirm this? If you could show an example of someone who definitely did have a pulley that you refunded money; the folks that say they didn’t get their money back puzzles me. This seems like a good time to know the “rules” (yes/no)?

Ok, I hate the term harmonic balancer – can we get this out of the way and just call it a TVD (a torsional vibration damper) [A device with a elastomer based (tuned) or viscous (non-time dependant) based damping property.

1. Are you saying that it would be to expensive to make an appropriate damper that followed and damped the vibrations in the stock engine? RE: “Not for under a few million dollars.” Are you saying that fluidamprs’ methods are suspect; don’t provide adequate damping; that their methods are too expensive; or that their methods are not-working? Sorry, but I would really appreciate some clarity. (To be clear, any damper that I purchased that showed a “jitter” in the form of a FM modulation/vibration/jitter at the crank that was lower relative to the stock damper would be fine for me [hey, maybe I’m wrong, but it seems reasonable for an inferred measurement])


2. Are you also saying that only a “counter vibration” is effective and not a “simple” damper as in the case of a fluid damper (re: your quote, “… because the damper would have to produce the opposite frequency at the same amplitude to eliminate the harmonics produced by the engine. Not for under a few million dollars would have to produce….”? And that this is a statement that says viscous damper are no good (as they are not really producing counter vibrations, just damping “vibrations” in a manner analogous to a car’s suspension [spring/damper])?

What criteria do you use to determine if needed or not? You say the import engines are balanced much better, but you said earlier that the balance had nothing to due with TVDs?

Can you explain why Acura puts a TVD on our car, when it would be cheaper (my opinion) to make one one-piece part in lieu of a complicated one (with multiple steps to boot [not counting Q/A, etc])?

ARE you saying that if the crank is 0-gram balanced, that no TVD is necessary?

When you mention 4-5 time stock HP output, depending on the application, are you refereeing to drag racing where the car is NOT at a constant modal frequency. To use a tuning fork analogy, would you not agree, that a resonance at a critical point (if one existed) would tend to grow without bounds if it exceeded a “limit cycle?”

And, do you have any kind of modeling gear that you use that is available to model the engine system and compute various modes of vibration?

And, by using such a system KNOW that no harm of any consequence could happen to an engine with your part?

When will you be offering this new pulley? Will it be viscous? Will one be available for our car? AS for developing the proper “absorption” of vibrations, do you have a preference towards elastomers or viscous damping?

An adaptive damper – sounds interesting, can you comment on this? Or when can you comment on this? Do you have any Year/Quarter target dates?



So, at the least you are saying to not be surprised if some noise come out of the front of the car? Did I misunderstand you?

Are you saying that the removal of the resonators is a power gainer (in and of itself?)

And Dinan comes to mind with his “blurb” on keeping the pulley damper on… Why do you think he is so biased against the removal of the Harmonic Damper/TVD(Torsional Vibration Damper)? He claims that cooling air is being ducted to the damper to cool the sucker? I would think that this would be a rather “simple” test – to rig an IR detector to measure the temp. With IR devices sensitive to the slightest increase in temps, wouldn’t it follow that if the damper were absorbing energy, that it is vibrational energy? AT what point does the minor flexing that is a vibration by its very definition become a problem – do you guys measure the peak amplitude and have knowledge of the crank materials modulus and strain characteristics (can you model or determine the elastic regime as it relates to torsion)?

There is this grey area in my mind where sometimes comfort and safety (longevity) due work hand in hand. Example: If someone paints a roof white was it to make it pretty or was it to keep a special pump in the attic from heating? (Hey, did the guy like the color or was the color required…)


Ok, see the previous question about the elastic regime. Do you currently have a 3.0/3.2/3.5 crank? What do you need to post the pictures of your 3.0/3.2 cranks for the J32? I know a lot of members would be impressed if you actually went out and got some from Acura. Would you be willing to contact or leave information to facilitate someone getting the pics?

Can I count on you to post the pictures with details – this would be very enlightening…

This also brings up a question that it looked like you didn’t have time for or missed. Why does the Maxima have a solid pulley, but our pulley has a damper? Do you have some insight into their materials, geometry, engineering, and/or other information that would certainly impress all (including me)?

For people like Dinan, and others who insist that a harmonic damper is required, can you site an example of a car (recent Euro or Japanese with avid following) that you guys took a pass on making a pulley for? A counter-example on your part of WHEN NOT do go for a pulley would establish the level of “caution” on your behalf.

Do you ever talk to the other people with the numerous posts that advocate having the damper? Can you see if there is some suspect motive to only supply pulley with damping?


Do you have your own dyno?

Do you have any CAD/CAM/CAE and/or vibration analysis software and/or gear?

Could you comment on what it is – as fluidamp does?


TIA

I’m looking forward to your reply…

 

Similar thread on Newcelica.org from APRIL

If you look at the pics from MY install, UR did not even bring in an Eclipse to do R&D on, or they would have known that the pulley needed to be dished so that it wouldn't rub. Read the whole thread. See what his first post was, and then see what his response/explanation was to my pics.

But it's pretty much as simple as:

before the install: no problems
after the install: PROBLEMS
after removing the pulley: no problems

UR wouldn't even give us a REFUND for selling us an OBVIOUSLY flawed product.

 

So those guys had to machine their pullies in orer to get them on the car and working and no refund was offered??????

I say good luck to anyone who installs a UR crank pulley on their car and expects any kind of help from UR if a warranty issue arises. If they sold a pulley that rubbed and didnt offer a refund or to correct a mistake they made, what kind of credibility does that give any info posted here??

Are the gains posted by this one pulley worth all this??

 

Yeah because they run their engines to hell and don't care because rarely do they use the same engine more than a few runs before a - it blows up or b - they crash.
LOL

 

So you saying acura won't do that for me?

 

Huh? That made no sense.

He was trying to say that since drag racers don't use dampeners we shouldn't worry either, but I was saying yeah but they aren't exactly driving the engine 100k miles like we are.

 

Did you guys see the dyno?

 

sorry

I meant swap engines whenever I blow mine to keep me racing

I'd have a 200hp wet kit in my CLS

ya I knew what he meant, I was being a little vague

 

I'm a 3rd Gen Eclipse Owner. First, to clear up some misinformation in this thread.

the Engine in the V6 Eclipse is based on the 6G72 block. the engine in the 3000GT is based on the 6G72 block. Different heads, same block. Same bore, same stroke, same deck hieght, same bore spacing, etc. (this has been a source of some mystery, but lately it is becomeing clear, through the efforts of RPW in australia. Nothing like Experience)

One of the main issues we had with UR was that it was obvious they did not even test fit a vehicle prior to releasing their pulley. Besides the Service Engine Soon lights which are a source of controversy, the pulley actually RUBBED on engine components. Obviously it was never even test fit to a vehicle. much less any sort of R&D. They just took the 3000GT part and gave it to us, since it's the same block designation.

Another issue we have had with UR, is a lack of customer support. When people started having problems, they did NOT stand behind their product. They did nothing to prove any sort of R&D, or any of the claims that the problems existed because of our car.
Further, the claim that stock 6G72 V6's have this problem is ludicrous. As an example, RIPPMODS has a protytpe supercharged car that has doubled the engine output. This extreme power still does not throw an SES light.

Than the claim that the stock balancer is solid? Guess they haven't ever looked at one. Not one of ours anyway. It is obviously a TVD.

Another point to consider. They claim that racing engine do not use Balancers. OK, I'll buy that for a dollar. But keep in mind that these racing engines typically only have to last for, at most, a weekend. Not 100-200,000 miles. Bearing wear is not a concern in these instances.

Finally, here's a few links
http://www.dinanbmw.com/html/danger_...er_pulleys.htm
http://www.newcelica.org/forums/show...threadid=16310
http://www.eclipseforums.org/showthr...threadid=21044
http://www.eclipseforums.org/showthr...threadid=26491
http://www.eclipseforums.org/showthr...threadid=15106
http://www.newcelica.org/forums/show...threadid=22389
http://www.eclipseforums.org/showthr...threadid=42564
http://www.eclipseforums.org/showthr...threadid=49139
http://www.eclipseforums.org/showthr...threadid=18030
http://www.eclipseforums.org/showthr...threadid=34064

 

Shawn,
We are Looking forward for definitive answers... Thanks!

 

A test fit does not mean they did not R&D the pulleys. The same as Comptechs fitting the same headers for the Accord for us (3.0 versus 3.2) and the same for the 6-speed (they even said they THINK it will fit). It does not mean they have to R&D every vehicle that the headers fit.

Anyways, I do understand your conserns, and I'm glad you shared. But people already installed them in their cars and no one reported any rubbing, nor any problems. Long term problems are another story, but I think thats a chance every one takes by modding a car, especially with new products.

If everyone complaines this much about a mod that comes out for a new car, then no one would even consider making one for our car. I think its great to have a company that offer such product for our cars. We realy dont have much to add, headers, CAI and those are the only things I can think of that are bolt ons other than the pulleys.

I bet doug RES maker is reading this stuff and thinking holyshit, forget the RES :shakehd:

So please no more complaining. Unless some one reports some rubbing or Service Engine Soon lights on the CL Type S

 

Great logic. Don't complain about crappy products and soon everyone will start making crappy stuff because they know that you won't complain. Do you even understand that ours was NOT tested on a 3G Eclipse? UR just sold us an old product that was designed for the 3000GT. Even worse, when it started setting off the SES light they wouldn't give us a refund or offer us a replacement part. If a part is badly designed, YOU the COSTUMER have every right to complain. The pulley costs $200. The engine costs just a *little* more...

 

I was NOT being sarcastic about "thanking for posting a complain". I was refering that WE (the Acura 3.2 CL type S) dont have any problems (at least not yet). We can not complain about something that has not happend.

 

We are glad that the 3G Eclipse Owners admit the lower half of their motor is the same as a 3000GT. We want to make it clear we did do R&D for the 3G Eclipse/Galant V6. The first vehicle was a Galant, we did not have any problems with the pulley initially. After a few months we noticed the SES light would come on after full throttle high RPM acceleration. After some research it turns out the Eclipse computer has a higher rev-limit that the Chrysler computer for the same engine. We found the stack tolerances were the likely cause for the mis-fire code. Stack tolerances are the total height of the rod/pin/piston together, at rest the height is below or even with the deck of the block. It turns out that at high RPM, close to the Mitsu rev-limit the rod/pin/piston combo stretches, as it does in all cars, as RPM's increase. Well in an automotive technical magazine we receive they talk specifically about how stack tolerances cause mis-fire codes if the rod/pin/piston combo passes the deck of the block.
After a few installations, on 3G Eclipses, over the first few months the model was available we also noticed that the timing cover was touching the pulley slightly. When we had done the initial fitment on the Galant we had thought the timing cover was warped, so we trimmed the timing cover. The 1990-1994 Eclipse 2.0L including Turbo and 1995-1999 Eclipse Turbo, also including the 2.4L Turbo, had tendencies to warp the timing covers which caused the covers to touch the crank pulley slightly. From experience we felt this was the same issue we had with the earlier Gen. vehicles. The fact is that the rubbing did not cause any problems on the 1st, 2nd or 3G Eclipse. On the small number oif earlier gen cars that had rubbing the pulley would wear away a small part of the cover and that was it. On the 3G it did not hurt the cover, it did not cause the engine light. We had seen the clearancing on previous Gen. Eclipses and the results were perfectly acceptable. Subsequently seeing the clearance issue was not warping we adjusted the back section of the pulley, which is Rev A, the old being Rev N/A. We did not feel that this revision would require a re-cut of previously sold models because the Rev N/A parts would self clearance within a few days.
It was at this point the SES light issue was beginning to get out of control. We were hearing of owners with other mods having SES light problems. We were also hearing of owners with stock vehicles getting the SES light problem. At around the same time I also re-connected with an individual, from a highly respected aftermarket manufacturer. who had warned me about getting involved with the 3G Eclipse. He had been involved in the development of the 3G Eclipse before leaving Mitsu. He had said the paltform had many potential issues and he would never offer performance products for this vehicle. We decided to eliminate the application, although many owners still purchase the 3000GT pulley for the 3G Eclipse. The funny thing is that we have never had any problems since. The reality is we did not leave these owners high and dry, we made an educated decision based upon the facts we gathered. For the small amount of owners and money involved with this problem, why would we risk hurting our flawless reputation, unless we were absolutely sure the vehicle itself was the problem.
Now in all fairness to those 3G Eclipse owners that have Rev N/A units, we would be more than willing to make the revision to their pulleys. But the fact is that the units have long since clearanced themselves.

Respectfully,
Shawn Buamgartner
President
Unorthodox Racing Inc.

 

Shawn,
Any Status update on the CLS Alt pulley? Thanks....