Nicky Pass

I raced a black GTP from a 35 mph rolling start.........guess who won......The shiny white CL - S. It felt good to stomp him (by 2 cars)

Black CL-S 4-Life

Nice kill! GTP's are a good race till about 70.

tankmonkey

you really are mr. above-average.

(watch out though... those gtps are more than a match for the cl-s.)

Shalom

Nice kill! From a roll we have a chance. From a dead stop a GTP will pull on us out of the hole. If they even have a few mods like a smaller SC pulley it is all over for us since those run mid to low 14's no prob.

Vampyre

Before anyone jumps on me, I'm not a troll and I know a lot of the old-timers know me well on here and I'm one of the first members of the original acura-cl. I own both cars.

Good job. That's what I would expect stock for stock from 35. Anything over 30 in the GTP and without the modified PCM, it gets stuck in second gear, which is a dog for acceleration compared to 1st. Catch it just under 30 in the downshift, and it would've been a different outcome. Any modifications would also be no problem. The 14.3 I ran in my GTX is in 80+ temps with close to 75-80% humidity and dew points in the 60's as well. My best 1/8 was a 9.0 and the 14.3 was with a 9.3 so I know the car was capable of at least a 14.0 in cooler, dryer weather. This is also with minor mods, no performance mods beyond exhaust, CAI and .4" smaller S/C pulley. We've finally got a good dozen or more running consistent 12's without NOS.

Personally, I've yet to lose to the CL-S in my GTX, but that's only because of the mods. Stock for Stock I know they are virtually equal. Weight is the same and 20 hp more in CL-S is offset by the lower torque in the CL-S. I did beat a Silver CL-S here in Chicago about 3 weeks ago by about 2-3 car lengths to about 70.

As for mentioning GTP's are only good to about 70, wrong, we're still even above 70 as well. With 1/8's and 1/4 times and MPH's virtually identical. We also stay in lower gears a LOT longer. Second on the GTP is good for 98MPH!

Shalom

Yes the GTP can be quick in the 1/4 but they are dogs on the high end for sure even with some mods. Also to say there are a dozen+ GTP in the 12's is misleading. That is not consistant by any stretch of the imagination. You should tell everyone what these guys do to prepare their cars for this. ie taking out head lights, drag tires, etc.. Tell them also about how bad the tranny is on a GTP as well! Most of these cars would not be street legal to run 12's. Very unreliable car and even worse tranny than our CL-S.

Vampyre

What? There are over a dozen GTP's in the 12's now. Where do you get your info on that being a stretch of the imagination? On the GP board alone there are about a dozen, and how many people in the US that DON'T even go on the internet?!

Tranny more unreliable? Guess what! SOME 12's WITH STOCK TRANNIES still! Granted they won't last much longer, but which stock tranny would when you bump a car from 14.8 to a 12.8? I've heard more trannies going on this board than on any GP board! (Oh wait, I forgot also! Volvo, a FORD subsidiary is using a modified GM! GTP tranny in their cars, so obviously your right yes, very unreliable. That's why competing car companies are utilizing it in their cars. And I know this becuase one of the former GTP owners is one of the lead tranny techs at Volvo!)

All the 12's ARE street legal. Headlights in, emissions legal, etc etc. No weight reduction. Most of the 12 second cars are daily drivers. Granted they may use drag radials and occasionally slicks, but they pull 1.6-1.8 60' times. With stock tires, we've been seeing 1.9 to 2.0 60's, I personally have 2.0 60's on 20K mile all-season tires.

Trannies on the GTP are NOT bad, the weak spot is heat, which is avoidable if you don't burnout excessively and do other stupid things to burn out the tranny. The internals of the GTP tranny are very tough, plain and simple. Failure is caused when excessive heat causes the oil to stop lubricating properly and causes the sungear to seize and shatter the shaft in the differential, NOT the tranny. THe open-differential is the only reason they fail in this case and if there was an LSD available, that would solve the majority of the problems.

As for mods to get to 12 secs., lesse, a 2.8" to 3.0 inch pulleys (stock are 3.8"), 2.5 to 3.0" exhaust, headers, CAI, intercooler fuel management unit and improved ignition system and modified PCM for improved powertrain tables. NOw we've got modified rockers coming out along with some other more in depth engine mods that'll be sure to push the times even further down.

And as for dogs in the high-end even with mods, you obviously don't know what your talking about, we have plenty of dyno graphs and real-world race results at the track that shows that the car pulls throughout it's power band, including high-end! Stock, yes it sucks in the upper-band, but once you open up the intake and exhaust, that pretty much is no longer a factor. And with the smaller pulley (which by the way, a 3.4" give about 25 hp for ONLY $90 and the 2.8 which gives close to 70+ hp for only $119) the high-end 'dog' you mention is no more.

Also, Overall, your comment about the GTP being an unreliable car is unfounded. The car has been proven to be very reliable. There aren't any major problems that normal cars don't have. Just like the CL-S has it's problems as well. I could say the same thing about the CL-S being unreliable with all the tranny failures (someone here calculated something like 13% of the board has had a tranny fail, that's pretty unreliable if you ask me, even though only about <2% of the GP's boards 3500 members have had tranny failures) , fitment issues, leaks, brake rotor warping, etc. etc. Every car model has it's problems, that doesn't make one unreliable.

If you have proof to back up all your arguments like I just did, then post them.

My post was NOT an attack on a CL-S, just an attempt to clarify the GTP performance.

Shalom

Well I'm a member at www.clubgp.com. And yes they do take the headlights out, seats etc... When I said high end I meant high speed. Over 100mph the GTP is garbage for a car with that much power. All those 12's your taking about most of which are not consistant 12's and almost all their trannies fail in a short period! Great! All in all I think a CL-S would kill a GTP in a highway race no problem!

Vampyre

Not all of them take out the headlights. At the point when your running 12's your intake should already be good enough to where you don't need to. Mike Dye for example, the guy who runs 12.8's in Chicago (also most of his mods are home made, and he does have a modified tranny, aslo designed by him pretty much) runs with the headlight in and his seats in and in street form. Only difference at the track versus street is his drag tires. That car is his daily driver.

I still disagree on the highway runs. I've run the CL-S at highway speeds and I've beaten my friends SHO worse in the GTX from a 60 roll than in the CL-S with the same. And he's a GREAT manual driver and very consistent racer. And the SHO is known to be a top-end car, that's where they shine versus the less modded GTP's. It all depends on the mods. Look at the runs on ClubGP between Toolman(SHO) and Matt(GTP). With the GTP modified similar to mine now, Toolman's races versus Matt are now almost always this: Matt wins easily from a stop, barely from a 30 roll and even from a 60 roll.

Also, as for your comment on what they do to get in the 12's. I have one more response. What would it take to get the CL-S in the 12's? Also some of the things you mention. How would the trannies hold up in a CL-S running that quick, same as the GTP's! All things to keep in mind to put this discussion in perspective.

Anyway, good discussion, I like this, at least it's not getting personal like some people tend to do whenever someone tries to compare cars!

By the way, what's your name at ClubGP?

- Oh I did want to add one thing, from what I've read, the CL-S isn't that great of a performer above 100 either! We don't have the HP and Torque, nor the aerodynamics for either car for it to be good in that range!

scalbert

Just to add something, the 4T65E transaxle in the GTP has a higher torque rating than the CL-S unit. GM Powertrain does make the strongest automatic transmissions/transaxles out there.

Oh the fun of modifying the GTP. I do remember the days before ClubGP when there was just a Listserv with less than 100 people on it all run by Brian Marks.

Back in the summer of '97 I installed the first custom intake of people on the listserv along with a tranny cooler, boost gauge, trans temp gauge, cut out the u-bend, custom exhaust (that Flowmaster was a bit load) and then the first Magnuson nosedrive and later an S-Ported blower. Heck, I still get email from people asking about the write up's I did...

Anyway the point is that the GTP has a greater power potential for less money than the CL-S and does it reliably. Issue like the leather wearing and terrible paint made me move on but the drivetrain was stout. I was able to make some dyno pulls laying down nearly 240 WHP and over 320 WLB/FT in a car that does weigh less than the CL-S. However, the CL-S does have better gearing ratios.

I do prefer my CL-S over the GTP for the refinement and amenities. I do feel the CL-S is a better handler than the GTP with all conditions equal and has better brakes. But in power and straight line performance the GTP has more potential.

JZ

Some of you guys need to watch the statements you make regarding the GTP having no top end even with mods.

About a month ago I raced a GTP from about a 60mph rolling start and the guy SMOKED me! By multiple car lengths very quickly.

At the track my car has run 14.6-14.7 so don't say my actuator is broken or I have a slow car, just get your facts straight.

Shalom

When I say high speeds I mean 90-140+.

Race a GTP from 100+ and watch him drop off!

You only run high 14's with all your mods? Whoa time for me to get 6spd instead of wasting $1000 on headers plus a lot of other stuff.

Pull_T

Stock for stock and mod $ for mod $, the GTP beats the CLS.

It's time for you guys to break out the quality/domestic/comfort/luxury/amenities argument, b/c if you are talking about head to head "Down Main Street", you lose...

I never understand how/why you guys race at 140+. 99% of the time if you get beat to 80 or so, you're beat to that speed, too. Ever considered that when you hit 3 digits, the other guy has maybe backed off?

GoldTypeS_RENAMED

That's a pretty scary thought considering the CL-S has shit for brakes. I mean... our brakes are easily the weak point of the car... far more than the tranny!!

Vampyre

Excuse me? You mean that you actually think that the CL-S is a good triple digit racer too? I'm sorry, but both the GTP and CL-S are NOT built for acceleration or performance at that point. Unless you have a ZO6, 911, Viper, etc. then you can start talking about 100+ performance.


I doubt a CL-S would walk away from a GTP after 100. Without the limiter, people have easily hit 140+, ON TAPE. Of course, not quickly, but just like the CL-S has V-Tec for the higher RPM band, the S/C provides more than enough air to keep the car pulling at higher speed. The only thing limiting both our cars is the drag factor and that the engines are not designed for operating in that range.

I've personally been over 100 in the GTP 3 times, (not proud of it since I think going that quick is just plain stupid unless your on a track) and twice was during a pass maneuver where the person being passed decided not to let me go. All 3 times, the car pulled faster than I've felt the Cl-S pull when passing at that range.

I don't get how you keep saying the Cl-S is that much quicker at top speeds, if so, MPH's should be a lot higher in the 1/4's people run here, not EVEN with GTP's with the same ET's.

I will also not give in to an argument that the car is more comfrotable,/luxury/amenities becuase those are not comparable in the two due to the class of the car. This argument is solely on performance and not the class of car. CL-S is pretty much Mid-Lux. while the GTP is a Mid-Size sport 'sedan'.

oh, and pull_T, you can't say that the CL-s is not domestic as it's 95% american parts and built in Ohio.

Black CL-S 4-Life

I never race past 110, most of my races are up to about 70-80. Racing to 140 to me is pointless.

tankmonkey

oh, puh-lease!


those allergies really must be getting to you today, todd...

stock-for-stock the gtp and the cl-s are very evenly matched. the fact that the gtp can be modified more easily is irrelavant to the stock-for-stock argument.

you have said yourself that street racing generally comes down to who gets the hole-shot. remember when we ran at hrp and you screwed your launch? you certainly caught and passed me, but only after 2/3-3/4 of the way down the track.

when was the last time you had a light-to-light street race that lasted anywhere near 1/4 mile? think you could have caught me on westheimer running light-to-light with a 60 mph shut down speed with that kind of launch? I don't. and you have a significantly faster car than I do (and you are a significantly better drag racer than I am).

so what the fuck makes you think that you can summarily call a hypothetical street race race between two stock cars that run within a couple of tenths of each other stock-for-stock in both the 0-60 and the 1/4?

do I need to beat this horse anymore or are you getting my point here? hell, you're the one who keeps bringing this up when we're bench racing...

scalbert and vampyre,
your points are well made. the potential of the gtp as a platform for modifications is obvious, and the difficulty of building a truly fast cl-s with just bolt-ons is well documented.


personally, I don't see the point in making any major mods to either car because in both cases, you ultimately wind up with a somewhat faster car that cost you significantly more out of pocket and is worth significantly less on the open market. honestly, if being the king of the strip or street were my thing, I'd probably start with a car better suited to the task by not handicapping myself from the get-go with front wheel drive...


ps. the 5 minute edit rule imposed by the new bbs software sucks...

scalbert

IMO. my CL-S brakes are great for this class of vehicle. In fact I find them on par with my wife's 328i sport when it comes to distance and fade.

They are not Z06 level nor would I expect them to be. But they keep grabbing hard and consistantly within my expectations.

scalbert

I guess one idea in doing this is to be different. It is all too well documented and parts readily available to allow most larger market RWD V8's to go fast. Heck, I know people who can hardly read that can open a Jegs or Summit catalog and put their Mustang in the 12's if not 11's.

Doing something different is challemging and fun, again IMO... It is not always an all out race but a race to see who can acheive more with less.

tankmonkey

lol

Pull_T

Agreed.

It's not allergies, it's that Amthrax I got from not microwaving my mail yesterday...

I prolly bit off more than I could chew here. I was under the impression that the GTP had a good .3-.5 on the CLS in the full 1/4, but after consultation with others I realize the margin is not nearly that large...

:hangs head:

I'm gonna have to wait for tankmonkey to read this to me, as I'm not sure what all those squiggles and lines are that people call "writing"

KC CL 1785

Oh yeah, well my 2.2 is slower than all of your cars, so HA!!!!

CLUofI

Enough with the Pontiac stuff, I wonder why your car is faster? Could it be that it has a larger displacement AND a Supercharger? Even if it is faster, it is very ugly on the inside period.

JRock

And the funniest part of the whole GTP vs CLS thing is that their transmission has no problems holding 300+ torque stock.

FYVM Acura.

tankmonkey

and you are absolutely certain that the tranny problems people are encountering with the cl-s result from the tranny's inability to handle the car's torque?

it couldn't be a part failure unrelated to torque? perhaps a bad bearing, valve body machining issues, or faulty solenoids?

transmissions are pretty complex machinery...

Vampyre

I also don't think the CL-S failures are due to torque. I think it's due to a bad heat dissapation. How many of the people with bad trannies say their fluid was burnt? Quite a bit. Heat is the enemy of ALL trannies.

Mike

That's why I had my tranny fluid changed at 15k miles.

moomaster_99

Me too!!! And mine is dead..., at least this one should be better than the last one..

Mike

did you ever run n20 on your car?