...or maybe it's not a good time considering the recent problems with our cars.

You see, there were two camps of thinking. There were those who felt when you compared two cars like the BMW 3-series and the Acura CL, the Acura owner had a distinct advantage when compared to the BMW owner because of the purchase price of the vehicle. The Acura cost $32,000 which translates to $32,000-worth of quality and workmanship and performance. If you paid $45,000 for your BMW, then you were only getting $32,000-worth of quality and workmanship and performance and you were paying about $13,000 for the BMW nameplate. So everytime a BMW owner came forth, s/he was told but I, the Acura owner, am better off because you, the BMW owner, overpaid for a name brand.

The other camp didn't see it this way and scoffed at the [absurd] idea. Instead they said "we paid more money because we are getting a better car overall". Never mind the 0-60 speeds, the 1/4-mile stats, etc. How can you say your car is just as good as mine and you paid less so you are better....?" Some of us knew that a new car is a new car and even a new Ford Focus has very few problems, but in the long run, this might be changing. Not sure what problems the BMWs are going thru these day, but I do know about some of the Acuras.

Anyway, I can remember the long, long posts and the numerous discussions and the heated debates about this and I was relatively neutral except for a few comments I made like "the price you paid for your car has little to do with how good your car is." So I'm just wondering if these types of discussions that were so numerous in the past are now just a distant memory, long forgotten, no longer applicable, banned by the mods type of discussions or is anyone interested in either continuing to defend their ideas, perhaps they have had a change-of-heart, or maybe they have some new thoughts about how they will no evaluate future purchases, the type of research they will conduct because purchasing a new car, or what do you know think about the BMW/Lexus now?

Sorry for the run-on sentence and the long post.

 

i dunno... i wouldnt want to take on this debate since I've never owned a bimmer to compare too...

but i do know this.

bmw's have their share of problems as well.

i mean shit... our cars dont spontaniously combust!

 

I, for one, did exhaustive research before buying the CLS. Included was the ES300, X-Type, 3-Series, and E-Series, as well as various Ford, GM, & Chrysler models. For my money (which, lets face it, the whole world revolves around sex & money) the Acura was best at blending performance, luxury, quality, styling & image. While the styling part is very mediocre at best, the other aspects are quite nice. I think that car makers should follow Acuras lead by making a very nice car with a REASONABLE price tag. If you remember, Lexus did this years ago before they took the sales lead over Acura and Infiniti. Then it went to their head like BMW and the prices started rising.

 

Me thinks it just come down to personal preference. Some buyers are set on a Beemer and some on the Acura. Even with the Acura, some are set on CLs and some Tls.

My choices I was thinking of for cars at purchase was a finding a low mileage Legend Coupe in white (impossible), a SC 300 Lexus (30K car was the same price as my car) and a GS300 Lexus ($57,000).

Guess which one I wound up with.

 

I agree with all being personal perfernce. I also agree you are paying 10K more for the name plate. And your getting a car that has more problems than a CLS. If you compare lets say a 33K BMW so like a mid range 328i, I think you get a louder ride, slower car, not as sharp looking, doesn't stand out. The town i'm from in NY and here in Scottsdale, everyone has a 3 series. I did look at a 330xi for AWD if I stayed in NY, and for all the options it was 44K and wasn't comfortable, at 6' 3" and long legs I felt cramped in the car, there was no where to put my left leg either and there was no where to put CD's in the car, cups, different personal things I keep in the car, the acura has all these little pockets. one of my best friends has a 330xi and loves it, and it fits him perfect he is 5 7 wears abercrombie and fits the typical bimmer prick stereotype. Personally, I love 7 series Bimmers, I still think you are paying too much for them but not as much of a premium as the 3 series.

But they are still great cars, and I would never say anything bad about them except for the spoiler on the 330 is ugly, right mark.
I got in a fight with my ex-girl becuase she has a 330 and i was making fun of her, about being a bimmer prick, and having a ugly spoiler, hahahah that was funny.

I partically don't like small cars, the CL is a big car, long and heavy and smooth but still the smallest car I would buy, so a three series is not for me. Anthony

 

Although i do not repair or maintain BMW vehicles my neighbor here in our shop does.This gives me an opportunity to compare the cars on a daily basis.He has told me on numerous occasions that the cars though well made also have numerous NVH (noise vibration harshness) type problems.BMW replaced alot engines due to problems stemming from a manufacturing defect,Acura has some problems with their transmissions and are replacing them.Currently BWW is replacing alot of cooling fan parts due to flaws in the production parts,some BMW's are on their second set of cooling fans because of problems with the parts.Acura had a problem with the electric switches in their safety belts and faced a similar problem when the "corrected" parts turned up as flawed as well.Both cars have some concerns with minor rattles and squeeks,Our cars most notably after three years of production still seem to have a problem with the sunroof seal making noise when closed.
It is true that you get what you pay for,BMW interiors simply use better leather and more of it,Smell the inside of a new BMW and you can tell there is leather and lots of it.Acura interiors have a more plastic smell.BMW's have larger brakes even though the cars are about in the same ballpark performance wise.Comparing cars is fun to do but you should always try to compare cars within their own class.Car makers play a neat game by taking their products and comparing them to a car costing thousands more.This in certain cases works but in many cases it backfires,one look at the brake systems will confirm that.BMW's simply have bigger brakes that were designed for the autobahn Acuras have smaller brakes designed with American roads and drivers in mind.Push both cars to the limit and rest assured the BMW will come out ahead.But realize in the same thought that your payments a month are considerably less and your cars still perform very well.The debate is pointless you get what you pay for and in a BMW you get more but it will cost you dearly and frankly considering the reality of American roads and speed limitations buying a BMW is more about satisfaction for the ego than any real need for massive brake capacity or speed potential that you can rarely if ever actually use and even then you risk legal problems when you do.I respect people who buy Acuras they made smart choices without losing their heads in the advertising blitz that BMW conjures up with the ultimate driving machine nonsense.Enjoy your cars gang they are without doubt great cars and at the end of the month you still have money left so you can eat.Jens

 

if your going to pay 57,000 for a gs300, You are getting ripped!

 

its all about preferences, i lease a CLS because i want to. the payments are ok, and i'll probably lease another acura after this one, the only thing that might change that, would be if a very nice low milage CLK430 gets traded where i work about the time my current lease is up, then maybe i'll do a MB Pre-owned lease and starmark the car

 

Like alot of others, i considered alot of cars. Some cost a bit less and some cost a bit more. The CL-S was hands down my first choice, and i don't feel any different now. I would never pay 8-10 grand more for a 3 series, period. That's just me. I know they are great cars, but not worth the extra $ imho. Besides, as Jens said, they have there share of problems also. At least we don't need to carry fire extinguishers !

 

If I had to pick between CLS and 330i, I would pick CLS also. Just cause its $10k cheaper. Yes 330i handles better, a little faster. But with that $10k you save, thats way more than enough to get better brakes, new suspension and mods to make the car better than the 330i, u probably will still have money left for a system and all. Most important thing I like about CLS is its just bigger, everything CLS lacks you can add to, now you try making a 330i bigger. hehe

 

I have had 2 recent model BMW's, they definitely are not problem free (but not going to harp on the subject).

After driving both several times, the decision was simple, I lease cars for 36months.....it came down to $439/month for the Acura and $600/month for the 330Ci (same terms/conditions).

The BMW was nice, but to "me" it was not worth the extra $160/month and like $700 more out of pocket. I would also be pissed that I was pimping in a 330 and not an M3.

 

Actually I do think this conversation is rather timely. Why? First I think some are missing my point in that YES if you are especially sensitive about money (and apparently there are a lot of those here), then you may choose the less expensive car. A $200 CL payment vs. a $300 BMW payment might make the difference. But how does that really relate to the car and the quality, performance, and workmanship? How about the next guy with the $150 Toyota payment? Does he have a case against the Acura guy? Sounds more about personal preference.

My point was to get the folks who are disgruntled about their car after owning it for awhile to see what they now think. Obviously they have other thoughts and ideas and they aren't commenting here because perhaps...well I don't know why, that's what I'm trying to find out.

Answer this: I saved $10,000 by buying this car over the BMW. If you truly saved, why do you mind spending an extra $200 to make up for apparent lapses in quality or insure that your good quality remains intact? I think I know the answer but I want to hear from you!

 

I was looking for the best combo of performance and luxury under $30k. So I didn't even consider BMWs. That left me with little to choose from considering the '01 Maxima SE, GrandPrixGTP, Accord EX V6, and Audi A4 1.8T just aren't "luxury". (and the Accord and Audi don't qualify as "performance" either, in my book).

But I test drove all of those cars. And a Camaro SS. And a Grand Am GT1, and a few others here and there like the Jetta and Passat 1.8T's.

I did a fair amount of research and actual testing before I went with the CL-S.

This was all prior to April, before the TL-S really came out in any sort of volume, and way before the '02 Maxima SE.

Right now if I was doing it again I'm not sure what I'd get, but maybe I'd still end up with an Acura. Who knows.

 

Well... I never considered a BMW. My idiot neighbor from high school has a 325 circa 1996. So that left me with getting a 330. Too pricey its the unwritten rule, Thou shalt not have the same car as thy neighbor. The closest BMW dealership was Dick Horrigan and my dad had a very nasty bout with that guy and his Audi in the late 80s. He had a 6000s Turbo and the damn thing never ran. Turbo failed twice making a puff of smoke a mile long down the road, and the thing would stall ALL THE TIME! Usually at a light, but it happened crusing at 70 the engine would cut off. Numerous electrical problems the locking thing, push the door lock down on the driver side and four doors would lock that would lock and unlock constantly. Kind of funny actually.So, just to show how low I think of Audi I would take a Pontiac over an Audi- including the coveted TT. So that leaves BMW and Audi off my list. Mercedes? the C-coupe wasn't around then so that was a deifnate negative. Too pricey. So that left me with Ford/Mercury, Honda/Acura, Toyota/Lexus and GM. Test drive the Fbody and I liked it, but visibility was terrible and it felt like driving an SUV. Body roll was terrible and insurance rates were through the roof. So much for GM. Ford? I liked the Mustang and the Cougar. The Cougar seemed underpowered. my old '88 Legend SDN could beat a new Cougar. Mustang? I test drove it and didn't like the handling. There was a rattle in the test drive unit that the salesman claimed not to hear. Maybe if he shut his damn mouth for two seconds. The V6 was underpowered and the GT was not for me. I needed an all weather car. having a Summer and Winter car was not an option, I had student loans to pay off, and insurance rates were again an issue with that V8. So that scratches off Ford. That left me with Toyota/Lex, and Honda/Acura. I already had an Acura that never left me stranded and never failed me. The Lexus is300 had just been introduced and was still in the "Wow buy me! I'm new!" stage so that was not an option. I also can't stand those queer clear taillights. I don't care if they are the rage in Europe, last tiem I looked this wasn't Europe. If you need confirmation our speed limit signs are in miles per hour, not kph. So that scratched off Lexus and Toyota. That left me with The TL andd CL, and CL Type S. I put the order in for a CL-P. My dad comes in and says to get the Type S... Why? because in a few years when I want something better I can sell the Type S to sone kid who wants a faster car. Ok fine... cancelled the P order and ordered the Red CL-S. Here I am a year later with only one warranty problem, a loose wire behind the thermostat which was fixed and has not been a problem. My tranny is fine, my rims have not been scratched.

 

I have owned 'em all. I had a 1974 BMW Bavaria, 1982 BMW 633CSi, 2 Maxima's 89&98, 94 Lexus GS300, 2 Ford Exploders, 2000 Audi A6 and none except the Maxima and the Lexus have been trouble free. Personally, I did expect more from Acura but I haven't had the issues you guys have.

 

I think what it comes down to is that all cars, nomatter what manufacturer, have their share of problems. Some people get lucky and get a car that runs forever and then some others buy cars and parts start flying off the minute they leave the dealership. If there was a manufacturer that could make a car that was 100% flawless and low cost plus have good performance and luxury, there shouldn't be any competition in the long run (that is if that's what people are looking for in a car). The fact is that there are problems in every car and we just have to realize that. My feeling is that the Acura CLS/TLS is about as close as we're going to get to a well-balanced all-round luxury performance automobile. I'm glad I bought this car and I'm probably going to buy another one.

My $.02 + S&H and 8% sales tax.

 

They are out there... I found a 1995 Acura Legend Coupe w/ 53,000 miles in may 2001... U just gotta search... I love this car! But I alos paid 20K for it

 

When it came time to shop for a new car, (which ended up being the CL-S), I was coming off of a 17 year loyalty thing with a domestic brand that I had finally had enough off. Here in De-twat, you're raised pretty heavily in one camp or the another.

When It came time to go shopping I had the entire world open to me. I drove everything in and around the TL/CL price range and market. I made my decision based on initial quality, reliability, performance, and bang for buck.

I have never been swayed by what the Jones' drive, and don't care if they like what I drive. I am much deeper than that. Therfore I looked at the Bimmers with complete objectivity. They are great cars and I would love to own one. But they are notorius for NVH issues. With BMW you pay heaviliy for everything. If you're not mechanically inclined a simple brake job can cost you a CL payment. But like Jens said, if you live in an area where you can regularly take advantage of the Bimmers' handeling and braking it may become more of a factor in your decision.

Bottom line no car is perfect, regardless of price. Tell me which brand has the best quality and reliability. Price is no object. Is it Toyota? Lexus? Rolls Royce? Each has a service department, and they're failry busy at that.

 

When I purchased this vehicle, I really was purchasing Acura brand name, thus realibility and quality. I also was pretty impressed by the test drive and the whole 260HP thing. The fact that everything was standard and the vehicle was reasonably priced, swayed my decision. I felt like I was getting an awesome car.

However, now as I look back, I realize I did not make the right decision. I really want stick and RWD or AWD. This car was a boat before Eibachs. It's a little better now, but in reality, why try to make it something it is not (i.e a true road car). I want a driver's car, which Acura is really not unless you make modifications. I personally prefer factory (out-of-the-box). So while I would not have been able to afford a brand new bimmer, I deffinetly should've gotten one slightly used.

So to asnwer Kensteele's question, I personally believe you deffinetly get a better driver's car when you pay for a BMW. I would've found a way to pay similar price meaning low 30s for a bimmer and would've been happier than I am with the Acura. It would've been slighly used but so what, my car was used after a month as well.
Maybe because I was expecting alot better quality from the Acura and my expectations were not met. However, the Type Slow is still awesome on some days, and still really fast on the highway and so smooth, but it gets boring.

 

I went with the CLS because of the overall bang for the buck. There wasn't anything close that offered the style, power and price. 3 series didn't cut it and the fact that they wanted to nickle and dime everything didn't sit well with me. Nissan and toyota didn't have anything sporty enough. I didn't want a 4-door. I'm too young for a 4 door. Although the CLS sometimes lacks in the fun factor, I can't complain. I wouldn't buy an Audi if you held a gun to my head and BMW isn't far from audi. The only german manufacturer I'd purchase is a benz. If I had the money I would've gone with Skyline. But i'm sure Acura will come up with something before I'm in the market again

 

My turn?

I've owned my 330ci for about seven months now. Before that, I had a '99 TL Navi. I considered the CL when buying the 330ci, but my most important criteria was I wanted something fun to drive. The CL is an absolutely fantastic car - it looks good, it's fast, it's reliable, and it's an amazing bargain. Nothing can touch it for $32k, except maybe an IS300, and that's a differen argument.

But I wanted a manual, and I wanted rear-wheel drive, so the CL is out. My decision really came doen to a loaded 330ci or a base Boxster, and if you guys think the 330ci is needlessly expensive, you should try buying a Porsche sometime. The BMW is extremely well built, and it seems like the quality of the materials is much higher than I had in the TL - nice leather (everywhere), real wood, great-looking rubberized plastic, etc.

But it wasn't for the better materials that I chose the 330ci, it was the driving experience. Like I said, the CL is a fantastic car, but it's not a driver's car like a 3-series is.

 

It's great to read other people's opinion on why they decided to buy the CL. For me, it was never a cost issue between BMW, Acura, Lexus, etc... I test drove so many cars I can't remember how many. I finally decided on the Acura CL Type S with Navi because it offered more "bang for the buck." I've owned a 3 series before and I personally never saw the the greatness in the car. I finally got rid of my 328ci because of the small problems that kept coming up time and time again. I

 

I did alot of investigation like many of you and in the 30,000 range which is what I was willing to pay for a car the cls was the best value for the money.
A good comprimise between reliability,performance and luxury. For 10-15 thousand more I would have gotten a corvette for enjoyment.

 

One thing I found curiopus was that the BMW used to use a lot of leatherette in their cars. Pretty good stuff but pleather nonetheless. Am I wrong in this? Have they stopped using it? Does Acura use it?

 

I also got my CL-S because it simply was the best value and combination of performance and luxury for under $30K. The only other cars I really considered were the IS300 and TL (and an MDX, but that's a different story). I had been wanting to get a TL for about a year before I actually bought my car, but when I saw the 2001 CL I decided I didn't want a 4 door mom's car so I figured a CL was the way to go. The deciding factor was probably the fact that the TL-S wasn't available at the time, so if I wanted A Type S, it would have to be a CL. I thought about the IS300, but didn't really like the interior and hated the lights. I also didn't like the fact that many of the ISes you see are driven by little punks who had mommy and daddy buy it for them because of the Lexus badge. I didn't consider the 330 because I didn't feel it was in my price range at the time. If I had, I don't know what I finally would've gone with at the time. I love the 330's styling and looks, but do think it's overpriced like just about everyone else. I also don't like the interior all that much. I'm sure it has better materials, but I just haven't found an interior that I like as much as my CLs. I love my interior, the way everything's layed out, the looks, the elegance. It might not have such high quality materials, but it's definitely very comfortable. Thw whole tranny issue already has me thinking of my next car, and when I think of the 330 I find it very hard to justify it's cost. I'd love to own one, but probably not for the price. I also think I'd go with a Corvette instead, especially if they keep the interest free financing. And yes, I'd get it automatic, that's another reason why I went with the CL-S and ruled many other cars out. I drive in traffic most of the time and didn't want to deal with the clutch so I needed an auto and the SS just made the package that much sweeter.