Need an O2 SImulator
09-16-2003, 09:12 AM
#1
TRELOS
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Need an O2 SImulator
Anyone know where I can find an O2 simulator. Or how I can go abouts figuring out what simulator would work for my CLS. I was told that an Oldsmobile Sim may work. Huh????
Juker008
Juker008
09-16-2003, 10:03 AM
#2
Revving at 9K...
I got one for my S2000, because I have a straight pipe. It works good. I got it from Casper.
http://www.casperselectronics.com/
They don't have all the cars listed, so I would just call them up and ask about the application you are looking for.
http://www.casperselectronics.com/
They don't have all the cars listed, so I would just call them up and ask about the application you are looking for.
09-16-2003, 10:55 AM
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Tnx again. Explain this to me though. I just got off the phone with them and they do have an O2 sim that I can use on my car. They did tell me that it would be a splicing job, in that they do not have a plug n' play module. To me thats not a big deal.
What I can't seem to fully understand is that we would only need to simulate the rear O2 sensor. I asked him if I can still run nitrous off this setup and he told me yea no problem. He explained to me that all O2 measurement would be taken off the front O2 sim.
Because the cat would be taken out, were the rear O2 once was, thats where O2 voltage needs to be simulated?
Juker008
What I can't seem to fully understand is that we would only need to simulate the rear O2 sensor. I asked him if I can still run nitrous off this setup and he told me yea no problem. He explained to me that all O2 measurement would be taken off the front O2 sim.
Because the cat would be taken out, were the rear O2 once was, thats where O2 voltage needs to be simulated?
Juker008
09-16-2003, 11:14 AM
#5
Revving at 9K...
hum... okay, I can only explain this from the S2000 perspective.
S2000 also has two O2 sensor, and with a straight pipe, the ECU will throw a CEL when it sees no difference between the primary and secondary sensor. With the O2 simulator, it will take this whole thing out of picture, because the simulator itself will be doing all of the reporting to the ECU, and therefore tricks the ECU in thinking that your CAT is work fine, even if it's not there.
As far as where the voltage needs to be simulated, I'm not too sure about the CL, but they do include great instructions.
Good luck!
S2000 also has two O2 sensor, and with a straight pipe, the ECU will throw a CEL when it sees no difference between the primary and secondary sensor. With the O2 simulator, it will take this whole thing out of picture, because the simulator itself will be doing all of the reporting to the ECU, and therefore tricks the ECU in thinking that your CAT is work fine, even if it's not there.
As far as where the voltage needs to be simulated, I'm not too sure about the CL, but they do include great instructions.
Good luck!
09-16-2003, 03:08 PM
#6
Sweet as Gold
Re: Need an O2 SImulator
Originally posted by Juker008
Anyone know where I can find an O2 simulator. Or how I can go abouts figuring out what simulator would work for my CLS. I was told that an Oldsmobile Sim may work. Huh????
Juker008
Anyone know where I can find an O2 simulator. Or how I can go abouts figuring out what simulator would work for my CLS. I was told that an Oldsmobile Sim may work. Huh????
Juker008
Yo...we had a guy come in once w/ a welded on straight pipe...he just had his rear o2 sensor wire tied to his frame...no check engine lite!!!Because the rear o2 sensor is just a reader...if it reads clean air it shouldn't matter if its outside...I'm in the process of putting a straight pipe on and will let you know how it goes but I don't think you will need an o2 simulator.
09-17-2003, 07:41 AM
#7
TRELOS
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Guys,
Tnx for all the info. Hey Ant7701, I thought of doing something along those lines before I thought of an O2 Sim. Although the conclusion that I came to was that if I wire the rear O2 sensor, tricking the ECU into thinking it doesn't exhist. I would asssume that I would have MPG issues. Because the front takes measurements and adjusts it needs a finial O2 sensor to confirm that the reading that the front O2 sensor read, and what adjustments that the ECU gave, are indeed correct. Thats why I decided to go with an O2 Sim. I hope that explains to u guys how I am thinking about this whole thing.
Juker008
Tnx for all the info. Hey Ant7701, I thought of doing something along those lines before I thought of an O2 Sim. Although the conclusion that I came to was that if I wire the rear O2 sensor, tricking the ECU into thinking it doesn't exhist. I would asssume that I would have MPG issues. Because the front takes measurements and adjusts it needs a finial O2 sensor to confirm that the reading that the front O2 sensor read, and what adjustments that the ECU gave, are indeed correct. Thats why I decided to go with an O2 Sim. I hope that explains to u guys how I am thinking about this whole thing.
Juker008
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09-17-2003, 07:48 AM
#8
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Nope, the HO2S2 is there primarily to confirm the catalytic converter is operating correctly. It doesn't play a role in the closed loop A/F ratio control.
I beleive this is stipulated by the OBD-II specifications.
I beleive this is stipulated by the OBD-II specifications.
09-17-2003, 10:04 AM
#9
TRELOS
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Scalbert,
That is where I was confussed. If the cat is not there anymore and the rear O2 is grounded then there would never be a change in the reading that the rear O2 would give out, the signal would always be constant. Thats why I assumed that I would need an O2 Sim.
Juker008
That is where I was confussed. If the cat is not there anymore and the rear O2 is grounded then there would never be a change in the reading that the rear O2 would give out, the signal would always be constant. Thats why I assumed that I would need an O2 Sim.
Juker008
09-17-2003, 10:11 AM
#10
Revving at 9K...
Juker008, you are right on the money. I don't think scalbert is saying that you don't need a o2 sim, he is just saying that the secondary sensor does not affect MPG.
With my straight pipe on the s2000, I only the the primary sensor plugged in, my secondary sensor is zip tied to the frame.
The o2 sim will just make your ECU think that the CAT is still there, therefore no CEL.
With my straight pipe on the s2000, I only the the primary sensor plugged in, my secondary sensor is zip tied to the frame.
The o2 sim will just make your ECU think that the CAT is still there, therefore no CEL.
09-17-2003, 10:12 AM
#11
Revving at 9K...
Another thing is that I've heard about some car's ECU will detune the car when a CEL exist. Therefore, also another reason why it's good to have no CELs when running a straight pipe.
09-17-2003, 06:56 PM
#12
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run a straight pipe with a BUNG welded in... the Cat O2 sensor has a heat resisitor in it, so make sure your SIM has one if you don't plan on putting the O2 in the bung on the straight pipe.
09-18-2003, 11:09 AM
#13
TRELOS
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When I had my check engine light go on due to $hit gas it hurt my performance ALOT along with MPG.
Smitty, explain to me what u mean by; "make sure your SIM has one if you don't plan on putting the O2 in the bung on the straight pipe" .
Tnx
Juker008
Smitty, explain to me what u mean by; "make sure your SIM has one if you don't plan on putting the O2 in the bung on the straight pipe" .
Tnx
Juker008
09-18-2003, 04:23 PM
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There is a heat resisitor in the 2nd O2 sensor, make sure the Sim you bought has one built in... I am sure it does.
The Sims that I made do not have the resistor built into them because it is a pain in the ass to find the res. value, so we opted to just make a bung and screw the O2 sensor in and forget about the heat resistor .
YGPM
The Sims that I made do not have the resistor built into them because it is a pain in the ass to find the res. value, so we opted to just make a bung and screw the O2 sensor in and forget about the heat resistor .
YGPM
09-18-2003, 07:59 PM
#16
Sweet as Gold
Allright boys...my gutted cat/straight pipe is installed...The o2 sensor is zip-tied underneath the vehicle out of the way...so far I got no check engine light and I've been driving around for like 2-3 hours allready...I will tell you that the car gets louder...especially in vtec!!!...Power increase...I don't know...about as much as my icebox maybe...you definitly feel it pull harder so the butt dyno approves!!!I'll keep u guys up to date w/ the check engine light..
09-19-2003, 01:09 PM
#18
Sweet as Gold
drove around to and from work and even took it out to lunch today...2 complete drive cycles and two un-complete drive cycles...so far...no light!!...like I said...I'll keep you guys informed..
09-19-2003, 04:03 PM
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O2 sensor must remain in place to prevent a MIL code related to the heater in the sensor...
Came right from the directions on Caspers website...
Anthony did you use a Simulator at all?...... the CEL will not trip right away... it takes 2-3 LONG trips before it throws a code.
Juk, did you use this 02 sim from Casper? SIM
Smitty
Came right from the directions on Caspers website...
Anthony did you use a Simulator at all?...... the CEL will not trip right away... it takes 2-3 LONG trips before it throws a code.
Juk, did you use this 02 sim from Casper? SIM
Smitty
09-19-2003, 04:14 PM
#21
Sweet as Gold
No simulator what-so-ever...I told you guys we had a guy come in once w/ this same set-up...no MIL...and he had it on for weeks. It takes two faults in two complete drive cycles...one right after another to trip a code and set the MIL on...I personally don't think it will come on. I had a nice discusion about this w/ my shop forman the other day to see if this mod was do-able...he also believes it won't trip a code. The heater will still operate as long as there's not an open in the heater circuit inside the o2 sensor itself...however the rear o2 is just a reader and the heater only turns on during cold start-up to warm up the cat to normal operating temp. It will still function normally.
09-19-2003, 04:15 PM
#22
Sweet as Gold
Ohh...and the power increase is getting better every time I get in...fucker flies now!!!It might be a little too loud for my taste...shit the normal exhaust was too loud for me so I'll see if it grows on me..
09-19-2003, 04:23 PM
#23
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Some guys wrapped it with aluminum foil....
From all the extensive research I have done there is a heater resistor in that 2nd O2.... I am putting my money on it that you throw a MIL when you see a significant drop in temperature...(SNOW and ICE form on that tied up sensor)
Just like the other guy who had installed for the 2 weeks and got no MIL yet.
but Why would you want an expensive part zip tied up under the car?....
I am playing it safe and having a bung welded on all the cut outs/dumps that are being made for the S/C'ed guys....
From all the extensive research I have done there is a heater resistor in that 2nd O2.... I am putting my money on it that you throw a MIL when you see a significant drop in temperature...(SNOW and ICE form on that tied up sensor)
Just like the other guy who had installed for the 2 weeks and got no MIL yet.
but Why would you want an expensive part zip tied up under the car?....
I am playing it safe and having a bung welded on all the cut outs/dumps that are being made for the S/C'ed guys....
09-19-2003, 04:51 PM
#24
Sweet as Gold
You maybe right...there is a heater resistor in that rear o2...however it will still function outside of the cat. With a drop in temp...it might not operate properly...understandable...I might make something to put it in...or just buy a sim for the winter (If I can take the sound for that long)...but I'm not too worried about it. So far---so good. I can clear the mil anytime it comes on anyway...thats if it comes on. Also...the part being too expensive doesn't bother me what-so-ever...I'll just swap one w/ one from a lease turn in vehicle...hehehe...Time will tell...
09-19-2003, 05:14 PM
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In other words, Honda's engine management is about as good as I thought it was, TERRIBLE. The concept for the HO2S2 is to verify the working of the catalytic converter; obviously Honda's algorithms do not work.
Honda makes green car through mechanical engineering; GM does it through advanced engine management.
Honda makes green car through mechanical engineering; GM does it through advanced engine management.
09-19-2003, 05:45 PM
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Originally posted by ModAddict
Damn,....
Smitty I want to send my sim back for credit! :P
Damn,....
Smitty I want to send my sim back for credit! :P
... you do?... mine was cheaper than CASPERS...you got it for cost man.......Anthony:... yeah just drill a hole and get a BUNG in the straight pipe and have it threaded... then you can screw your O2 right in to it... no biggie..
Yeah Steve, I hear yeah but what cha going to do..... nothing... just like the rest of us.... work with what we got... A UNICHIP/piggy back would be nice right about now...
09-19-2003, 06:37 PM
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Originally posted by scalbert
In other words, Honda's engine management is about as good as I thought it was, TERRIBLE. The concept for the HO2S2 is to verify the working of the catalytic converter; obviously Honda's algorithms do not work.
Honda makes green car through mechanical engineering; GM does it through advanced engine management.
In other words, Honda's engine management is about as good as I thought it was, TERRIBLE. The concept for the HO2S2 is to verify the working of the catalytic converter; obviously Honda's algorithms do not work.
Honda makes green car through mechanical engineering; GM does it through advanced engine management.
He's had poor results with the Uni-Chip on the Soobie's.
He's very skeptical of any programmable EMS for our cars. The IC may be the only ticket to higher boost for a while.
09-19-2003, 06:52 PM
#30
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Originally posted by ModAddict
Tom Payne, of Payne Tech, thinks we'll have trouble controlling the timing on our cars with the Uni-Chip. We have two different TDC signals,... He's had poor results with the Uni-Chip on the Soobie's.
Tom Payne, of Payne Tech, thinks we'll have trouble controlling the timing on our cars with the Uni-Chip. We have two different TDC signals,...
He's had poor results with the Uni-Chip on the Soobie's.
I just hope what I understand is correct or else I will also be skeptical because fuel timing also dependant on these input signal.
09-19-2003, 07:00 PM
#32
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Originally posted by scalbert
But let me add, at this point I would settle for something which allowed me to control the injector pulse width only.
But let me add, at this point I would settle for something which allowed me to control the injector pulse width only.
09-20-2003, 04:25 AM
#34
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Originally posted by Ant7701
WTF is a BUNG?????????
WTF is a BUNG?????????
cow-a-BUNG-ga!
09-20-2003, 08:12 AM
#35
Sweet as Gold
oh...I DON'T NEED THAT...I HAVE A GUTTED FACTORY CAT W/ A STRAIGHT PIPE THRU IT...THE FACTORY LOCATION FOR THE REAR O2 SENSOR IS STILL THERE EXCEPT I PLUGGED IT W/ A 18MM DRAIN BOLT...ALL I HAVE TO DO IS UNSCREW THAT AND SCREW IN THE O2...so...I guess I have both combinations easily accessable!!!
09-20-2003, 02:47 PM
#36
TRELOS
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Originally posted by Ant7701
it might have been the shit-gas that was hurting you performance and mpg!!
it might have been the shit-gas that was hurting you performance and mpg!!
Naaa, I had to go through 4 tanks of Chevron to clean it out. Within those 4 tanks I was flooring it around town. Thats how I knew that it was hurting my performance.
Juker008
09-20-2003, 03:15 PM
#37
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Ok now let me ask u guys this.
If it is possible to just take out the rear O2 and just have it
zip-tied underneath the chassis, without throwing a code. Then it would be feasible to just simply gut the cat and keep the rear O2 in the cat. Right?
Also explain to me what is this thing about a heater in the O2?
Oh yea WTF is up with Uni-Chip? Where the hell is teh piggy-back?
Juker008
If it is possible to just take out the rear O2 and just have it
zip-tied underneath the chassis, without throwing a code. Then it would be feasible to just simply gut the cat and keep the rear O2 in the cat. Right?
Also explain to me what is this thing about a heater in the O2?
Oh yea WTF is up with Uni-Chip? Where the hell is teh piggy-back?
Juker008
09-20-2003, 03:43 PM
#38
Sweet as Gold
Originally posted by Juker008
Ok now let me ask u guys this.
If it is possible to just take out the rear O2 and just have it
zip-tied underneath the chassis, without throwing a code. Then it would be feasible to just simply gut the cat and keep the rear O2 in the cat. Right?
Also explain to me what is this thing about a heater in the O2?
Oh yea WTF is up with Uni-Chip? Where the hell is teh piggy-back?
Juker008
Ok now let me ask u guys this.
If it is possible to just take out the rear O2 and just have it
zip-tied underneath the chassis, without throwing a code. Then it would be feasible to just simply gut the cat and keep the rear O2 in the cat. Right?
Also explain to me what is this thing about a heater in the O2?
Oh yea WTF is up with Uni-Chip? Where the hell is teh piggy-back?
Juker008
the o2 is zip-tied underneathe the frame...however if you gut your cat...you should run a straight pipe thru it so you don't get that hollow sound when reving the engine. the rear o2 has a heater inside of it...all it does is turn on during cold start-ups to pre warm the cat to normal operating temps...thats it...it will still function normally if it's removed from the cat. I might be selling mine soon due to the noise factor...I'm anal about shit like this and it's a little too loud for me. I'll let you know!!
09-20-2003, 03:46 PM
#39
Sweet as Gold
If you leave the o2 in the gutted cat...you will throw a code for catalyst deterioration...the rear o2 is just a reader but it's only job is to make sure the cat is working...so if it reads high NOX or high HC's due to the gutted cat...the ecu will think the cat isn't working due to the read from the rear o2...however if you leave the rear o2 outside the cat...it will be picking up normal clean air...so you will be tricking the ecu into thinking that the cat is working fine...
09-20-2003, 06:53 PM
#40
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The heater is to bring the operating temperature of the sensor up quickly. These sensors need to be at around 900 F to operate correctly. By adding an internal heater they can become active quicker thus being able to control emissions output sooner.
The vast majority of bad emissions output is during cold starts. By decreasing the time before the emissions are controlled you have helped the total output.
The sensor operates by determining the amount of O2 in the exhaust stream. It's really only accurate at around stoichiometric value for gasoline, 14.7:1. But it is pretty good in that range. What the second O2 sensor is looking for is a decrease in the sweep frequency when compared to the first O2 sensor. This indicates the catalyst is working.
But now on to my diatribe. As you may or may not know; I designed and built an endurance test stand for the manufacturer of the catalytic converters used in our cars. As such I spent considerable time at the R&D facility of this manufacturer (Calsonic). Although my test stand was a life cycle study by flowing 150 CFM and varying the outlet temperature between 100 C and 800 C every four minutes and run this for weeks, I was privy to other testing being administered.
One such test was flow bench tests on the catalytic converters. Our cats only have about 1 in pressure drop per 100 CFM. We flow about 355 in NA form and maybe up to 400 CFM when modified. This would amount to a maximum pressure drop of about 4 inches. A rule of thumb is that with every inch reduction you gain about 1 - 2 HP. This would mean that the gutting of the catalytic converter amounts to about 6 HP max gained.
I am curious if it is worth this for increased consistent emissions output?? A test pipe is one thing since it is not used but < 1% of the time. But gutting the cat is removing the primary emissions control 100% of the time.
The vast majority of bad emissions output is during cold starts. By decreasing the time before the emissions are controlled you have helped the total output.
The sensor operates by determining the amount of O2 in the exhaust stream. It's really only accurate at around stoichiometric value for gasoline, 14.7:1. But it is pretty good in that range. What the second O2 sensor is looking for is a decrease in the sweep frequency when compared to the first O2 sensor. This indicates the catalyst is working.
But now on to my diatribe. As you may or may not know; I designed and built an endurance test stand for the manufacturer of the catalytic converters used in our cars. As such I spent considerable time at the R&D facility of this manufacturer (Calsonic). Although my test stand was a life cycle study by flowing 150 CFM and varying the outlet temperature between 100 C and 800 C every four minutes and run this for weeks, I was privy to other testing being administered.
One such test was flow bench tests on the catalytic converters. Our cats only have about 1 in pressure drop per 100 CFM. We flow about 355 in NA form and maybe up to 400 CFM when modified. This would amount to a maximum pressure drop of about 4 inches. A rule of thumb is that with every inch reduction you gain about 1 - 2 HP. This would mean that the gutting of the catalytic converter amounts to about 6 HP max gained.
I am curious if it is worth this for increased consistent emissions output?? A test pipe is one thing since it is not used but < 1% of the time. But gutting the cat is removing the primary emissions control 100% of the time.